How comfortable are people with meat, really?

Whispered

I was at yoga yesterday evening and the issue of vegetarianism came up. Basicially the teacher was talking about the spiritual aspect and some of the "rules" nearly like the 10 commandments in christianity. One of these is to respect life.

The yoga teacher is not vegetarian but said that some people claim you cannot become a yoga master while eating meat because you are not following this rule. I know that in Reiki circles the same is sometimes suggested and it appears to be a common theme in eastern practises

Anyway, I believe that it's incredibly rude to shove your opinions onto other people and I don't believe that anyone should have to "explain" their choice to eat meat, but, explaining her stance on it, she compared the eating of vegetables with the eating of animals. Basicially "if you want to go that far you can say the same about vegetables".

This woman is a good friend of mine, she is more morally and spiritually aware than me, she is a fantastic mother, a great friend, always fun. She doesn't need to justify her diet to anybody. Yet she felt the need to by comparing animals to vegetables. It got me wondering. Is there a small part of some meat eater that is slightly uncomfortable with what meat is? If not, why do most of them feel the need to justify themselves when speaking about the consumption of meat?

Typical conversation with new person:

"Why did you order tofu/falafel/insert veggie food here"
"Oh, I prefer it"
"are you vegetarian?"
"yes"
"well I eat meat and I like it!"

Who cares, I didn't comment or ask you about your diet - you asked me, I answered. Stop being so bloody defensive.

Abi

helena.ryan wrote: »

Is there a small part of some meat eater that is slightly uncomfortable with what meat is? If not, why do most of them feel the need to justify themselves when speaking about the consumption of meat?

I'd ask her. I wouldn't have been very comfortable with how defensive she was about it, as you mention below. While I can't speak for her, I know that before I became veggie I was never comfortable handling it.

Eating meat is a learned habit. Her issues, not yours tbh.

Who cares, I didn't comment or ask you about your diet - you asked me, I answered. Stop being so bloody defensive.

If she can't accept how you live, she shouldn't push the issue. You should tell her that it upsets you Helena

Whispered

I'm sorry, the yoga teacher didn't say any of this

"Why did you order tofu/falafel/insert veggie food here"
"Oh, I prefer it"
"are you vegetarian?"
"yes"
"well I eat meat and I like it!"

Thats just the general jist with most new people I meet when they realise you're vegetarian. I should have made that clearer - my apologies.

The yoga teacher wasn't at all defensive, she's a lovely person and my asking this question is no reflection on her at all. She used pretty unusual logic to explain away the consumption of meat. I suppose it made me realise that most people I know are either defensive or try to find logic as to why it's ok to eat meat. I never ever bring it up, if I did I'd understand. And because I'm comfortable with my choices I never feel the need to talk about it. I'm just wondering if people do this and try to justify it because they themselves are slightly uncomfortable about it. Especially when there is no way I, or any vegetarians I know would expect anyone to justify anything. There is really no need. I don't care what you eat.

raah!

I think that even though saying you're a vegetarian is a remark about yourself, it can be interpretted as a criticism of their diet.

I kind of understand this defense reaction people have, especially if you say you are a vegetarian for ethical reasons. You're saying "eating meat is wrong, you eat meat, you're wrong".

As far as I'm concerned people don't have to respect animals if they don't want to, bit I consider it to be hypocritical to talk about animal cruelty being terrible whilst eating a beef burger.

Whispered

yes, I know what you mean. But when this topic of conversation came up, nobody in the room knew I was vegetarian. So it wasn't for my benefit.

Abi

helena.ryan wrote: »

I'm sorry, the yoga teacher didn't say any of this

Thats just the general jist with most new people I meet when they realise you're vegetarian. I should have made that clearer - my apologies.

The yoga teacher wasn't at all defensive, she's a lovely person and my asking this question is no reflection on her at all. She used pretty unusual logic to explain away the consumption of meat. I suppose it made me realise that most people I know are either defensive or try to find logic as to why it's ok to eat meat. I never ever bring it up, if I did I'd understand. And because I'm comfortable with my choices I never feel the need to talk about it. I'm just wondering if people do this and try to justify it because they themselves are slightly uncomfortable about it. Especially when there is no way I, or any vegetarians I know would expect anyone to justify anything. There is really no need. I don't care what you eat.

I follow you now. Yes I've had the side digs about it too, and I can see why you're annoyed about it. Like yourself, I never bring up the fact that I'm veggie - sure why would we? I don't know why people feel the need to do this Helena. I've had the same crap before, and its as though at the back of their mind you're on some sort of a rebel phase or some kind of freak. Its mocking and disrespectful

raah!

helena.ryan wrote: »

yes, I know what you mean. But when this topic of conversation came up, nobody in the room knew I was vegetarian. So it wasn't for my benefit.

It's also possible that she brought it up because it was simply the most obvious instance where she appeared to have not been following the rules. It's an interesting point though, that animal and plant life are just different kinds of life. There was a thread on here before about, how we grade them in terms of importance and use this hierarchy of life to justify why we eat plants but not animals.

I know at least that I felt guilty about eating meat when I ate meat, but I just used to say things like "what does it matter if that boy is abusing that cat when people are slaughtering and devouring thousands of cow carcasses everyday". But then I'm a vegetarian :P

you're on some sort of a rebel phase

Bonito

I work in a butchers. Not a place for vegetarians IMO. A girl I know had always hated the texture of meat, never it's flavours or where it came from - slaughtering animals and what not. She found looking for substitutes very hard to compare to meat flavours but eventually did. Quorn chicken fillets and bean burgers and stuff. Tried them myself a lot and they're pretty nice but I'd see them as a side order along with my main meat dish and not a complete substitute.

Tar.Aldarion

raah! wrote: »

It's an interesting point though, that animal and plant life are just different kinds of life. There was a thread on here before about, how we grade them in terms of importance and use this hierarchy of life to justify why we eat plants but not animals.

We do assign life value based on criterion, everybodies is different...generally accepted ones are pain, reason, sentience etc..and I ain't gonna find no central nervous system in that there xylem. Even if an argument is made as to plants vs animals, which I don't think any reasonable one can, an omnivores diet leads to more plant deaths than a vegetarians...and simply, by not eating meat we are minimizing harm to life dealt, which is my aim.

raah!

I think this would have been an instance of no criteria for grading life(if the woman has any argument at all) . Saying that life is life and that's that. I think this is not too uncommon in some eastern religions, though perhaps that's not the case here.

I guess then if there is no distinction between platns and animals then the question is what they mean by "respect". But if you draw no distinction them it's either eat them all, or eat none of them, as there would be no reason to treat them differently.

It seems that there is more of a lack of an argument not to, rather than an actual argument why you should eat one and not the other.

Tar.Aldarion

What I meant about saying: if they were seen as equal... would it not be best do the least harm possible due to them all being valuable?

Eating all of them: By eating animals you are causing more plants to die, because of vast inefficiency when farming meat.
Eating none: we would die, so we have to kill life to survive..so eating plants would cause the least harm, maybe wild animals.

Then there is case of tomatoes, apples etc. which do not require the killing of the plant, could we live off them etc. It's more like taking eggs from a chicken. So the vegans might object there...

What was I saying..oh yes..it's 3am and I should not be having random thoughts thrown at this white square thing about this random topic.


/watches bleach

Herbal Deity

From what I gather from your post, there would appear to exist some kind of vegetarian elitism amongst some yoga practitioners/people into all that hippy jazz?

If so, she may have become frustrated by it, and it was maybe just a backlash against it?

lalee17

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Then there is case of tomatoes, apples etc. which do not require the killing of the plant, could we live off them etc.

Slightly off topic, but theres actually groups of people that only eat fruit that has fallen from trees, etc. I think they're called fruitarians, or something.

Tar.Aldarion

Aye some f them don't I can only wonder at their health..not as bad as these guys health though
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

old_aussie

I'm very comfortable eating meat, especially knowing that processed vegitarian food creates a lot more waste and uses a lot more energy in processing.

raah!

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What I meant about saying: if they were seen as equal... would it not be best do the least harm possible due to them all being valuable?

Hehehe, well, I was kinda focusing on the word respect. Their belief system could be one of those ones that is like "plants were put there to eat" and if animals are the same as plants then they were put there to eat too, and to not do so would be disrespectful... or something

But I guess this doesn't hold if they see eating as a necessary evil, and would like to reduce harm.Still though the word harm gets a bit blurry if we don't draw distinctions between plants and animals, or any other lifeforms. There's bacteria, and things like that. Does a bird disrespect a tomato when it eats it and poos it out?

And if there is no distinction between platns an animals, is there a distinction between a person and their hand? or a plant and its tomato?

I'll get my coat.

Whispered

Thanks for all of the replies.

It did sound like there is a vegetarian elitism in the yoga world, I know there can be in other circles too. And it is understandable where the frustration can come from. Vegetarian elitism is pretty evident every now and again. I mean, there was one post in another forum that told everyone that veg*ns ARE better than everybody else, more morally developed etc. That type of talk is going to frustrate people and cause a backlash against vegetarians.

I never thought of that argument that life is life regardless of it being plant or animal. It's an interesting thought. Would I be right is saying then, that someone who thinks that way, in theory, should have no problem with eating animals which are not the norm such as dogs, rats, elephants or even with practising cannibalism (please note I am not comparing eating meat with cannibalism!).

I would value life in different ways. But it's done using human thoughts which obviously do not apply to plants and animals, so is placing different values on things, using human logic, unnatural? (/tangent)

straricco

I think people are comfortable about eating meat, as most people don't properly think the process through so don't see the animal as being "life". And consider that meat is on sale in supermarkets nicely prepared and packaged, a whole world away from the slaughterhouse.

I finally thought about where my meat came from over xmas last. Seeing so many dead turkeys made me think about it. Then I looked into how animals were slaughtered and I honestly felt my blood chilling in my body. Since then I eat fish and quorn products, but admit having the odd slip. I was reared eating meat as are most people and I think its just a case of most people not stopping to consider the fact that their food used to have a face!

You can't compare veg with animals, when I looked into it I realised the fear that animals go through before being slaughtered so you couldn't compare this emotion to a plant.

xoxyx

I've had a similar conversation with vegetarians.

"I don't eat meat, but I don't have a problem with people who do. It just doesn't suit my digestion."

Eh - ok.

I think some people just feel the need to add these details into conversation because they worry overmuch about offending somebody.

smellslikeshoes

old_aussie wrote: »

I'm very comfortable eating meat, especially knowing that processed vegitarian food creates a lot more waste and uses a lot more energy in processing.

I really hope that is a troll post because it's frankly hilariously misinformed if not.

ztoical

helena.ryan wrote: »

It did sound like there is a vegetarian elitism in the yoga world,

well given that yoga is associated with the meditative practices of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, three religions that include restricted vegetarian diets as part of their beliefs I don't think elitism is the correct word. Being vegetarian is just part of the philosophy that yoga comes from so of course there will a high number of hardcore vegetarians. As yoga has become more popular in the west there are fewer people doing it who also subscribe to Hindu or Buddhist beliefs but there will always be an association between the two.

While being a vegetarian is not essential in order to practice yoga In order to become a yogi, ie someone who applies the teachings of yoga to their life, it would be very hard not to be vegetarian if not vegan.

Censorsh!t

I think a lot of people don't really think twice about what they eat. I mean, I used not feel uncomfortable when eating a steak, because I really just saw it as food...but then after doing some research, I'd feel horribly uncomfortable eating it.
Most people just never really see meat as an animal. And don't really want to either.
I don't think I ever really get people being defensive if I say I dont eat meat...in fact many people just mock me..ah well.

Abi

Censorsh!t wrote: »

I think a lot of people don't really think twice about what they eat. Most people just never really see meat as an animal. And don't really want to either.

Bang on.

Pre-packed meat doesn't look like the animal it came from, so they are able to dis-associate the fact when the buy it. I've come to believe that meat is an addiction for them, aren't addicts normally defensive about their behaviour?

dermothickey

Hiya,
Going back to your original thread where the lady said that some circles claim that you cant become a Yoga Master until you drop eating the meat.It just seems like she is struggling within herself really, Maybe holding on, defending her right to eat meat etc.. etc, Yoga practice here in the west o.k it generally consists of exercise and breathing techniques, with small meditations. But in a way dropping the meat is a fundamental aspect for those who are very serious about their spiritual/ earthly life. There is a LOT of karma created in eating meat, likewise there is karma created in how we interact with others we are karmic beings. Though a step to breaking the cycle of producing Karma is having respect for other Living creatures and pretty much just leaving them alone

You also said she is more spiritually and morally aware than you. We are all spiritual beings and from my own experience those of us who "Know" about spiritual matters tend to have a lot of knowledge etc always tend to be very opinionated. Knowing and realizing are 2 very different matters. Obviously there is a spark within you that realizes about meat, but she hasn't reached the realization, only knows about what others have realized and has formed an opinion about the matter which suits her lifestyle.This is dangerous territory simply because she may not realize the matter at hand fully. No harm we are all learning and sometimes we struggle. Though from a spiritual point of view we cannot measure anothers spiritual progress, only share what we have to help others realize more about themselves, their environment etc, and at the same time learning from them also. So the greatest teachers are those whose student surpass them on the Journey Sorry if this seems like a rant, I just joined boards.ie and love it

Censorsh!t

Actually the whole yoga thing and spirituality in regards to vegetarianism reminded me of a Franz Kafka quote - "Now I can look at you in peace, I dont eat you anymore"

Tar.Aldarion

Exactly how I felt when I became one, that day I went for a walk in the fields with teh cows and such, had a a chat...was real romantic.

Bonito

Abitar wrote: »

Bang on.

Pre-packed meat doesn't look like the animal it came from, so they are able to dis-associate the fact when the buy it. I've come to believe that meat is an addiction for them, aren't addicts normally defensive about their behaviour?

Defensive? I embrace both meat and veg and even them crumb bum meat substitutes :pac: (yet to try bovril and marmite though)

But as I said above, bean burgers and quorn and stuff are pretty nice but they wouldn't substitute my main meat dish. I can't have a dinner without a good consistancy of a volume of meat on the plate.

TBH I have always wondered how people can go off meat just by seeing where it comes from

Censorsh!t

Bonito wrote: »

TBH I have always wondered how people can go off meat just by seeing where it comes from

I think it's pretty hard to know exactly the conditions it's raised in these days. But knwong that factory farming exists, that unethical treatment does go on, I don't really want to take a chance...I mean, some animals are cared for very well, and live happy lives on some farms, but I'd rather not.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I think a lot of meat eaters really don't care. If a raw foodist, or a breatharian, or someone on a macro-biotic diet, or one of those people who only eat plant foods that don't require the plant to be killed (do they even exist? Or are they a joke?) came up to me and started talking about their diet I'd probably change the subject because I have no real interest in following it, and if they started being any bit preachy I could see myself getting uncomfortable and defensive. Not because I'm uncomfortable with the ethical implications of the diet I'm following now, but because their diet is so far outside the realms of things I care about or see as being any kind of ethical concern. So I'm not going to turn around then and say that everyone that gets a bit defensive about their choice to eat meat is dealing with some kind of latent-vegetarian guilt, they could have seen a bajillion peta videos and still not care.

And I guess if you're in a yoga-teacher situation where it comes up a lot you'd get defensive more easily because you're sick of defending yourself. After 21 years of vegetarianism I tend to dodge the conversation myself, more because I'm sick of defending/explaining myself than anything else.

Herbal Deity

Mina Weak Advertisement wrote: »

I think a lot of meat eaters really don't care. If a raw foodist, or a breatharian, or someone on a macro-biotic diet, or one of those people who only eat plant foods that don't require the plant to be killed (do they even exist? Or are they a joke?) came up to me and started talking about their diet I'd probably change the subject because I have no real interest in following it, and if they started being any bit preachy I could see myself getting uncomfortable and defensive. Not because I'm uncomfortable with the ethical implications of the diet I'm following now, but because their diet is so far outside the realms of things I care about or see as being any kind of ethical concern. So I'm not going to turn around then and say that everyone that gets a bit defensive about their choice to eat meat is dealing with some kind of latent-vegetarian guilt, they could have seen a bajillion peta videos and still not care.

This.

The assumption that meat eaters are not vegetarians because of not doing research or refusing to think about what it is exactly they are eating is extremely flawed. I don't read this forum much, and I'm not one to mock or question vegetarians, but the last few posts in this thread are elitist and belittling. I'm perfectly aware of the bad conditions in which many animals are farmed in, but animal welfare just isn't an ethical concern of mine.

Censorsh!t

I wasn't saying every person who eats meat does so because they don't think about it. I know some people who really couldn't give a crap. But for a lot of people, they don't really think about it.

Tar.Aldarion

Herbal Deity wrote: »

This.

The assumption that meat eaters are not vegetarians because of not doing research or refusing to think about what it is exactly they are eating is extremely flawed. I don't read this forum much, and I'm not one to mock or question vegetarians, but the last few posts in this thread are elitist and belittling. I'm perfectly aware of the bad conditions in which many animals are farmed in, but animal welfare just isn't an ethical concern of mine.

Everybody is not the same as you, most vegetarians I know are so because of what censorsh!t says and I know of a lot of poeple who do care, but can live with teh guilt, they are still uneasy in conversation about it.

Shenshen

Bonito wrote: »

Defensive? I embrace both meat and veg and even them crumb bum meat substitutes :pac: (yet to try bovril and marmite though)

But as I said above, bean burgers and quorn and stuff are pretty nice but they wouldn't substitute my main meat dish. I can't have a dinner without a good consistancy of a volume of meat on the plate.

TBH I have always wondered how people can go off meat just by seeing where it comes from

Everybody will have slightly different reasons.
Knowing where meat comes from never really bothered me, having spent a good deal of my childhood on a farm and seeing animals being killed for food there.
However, what did sway me was the fact the most meat you get these days does not come from animals who were allowed to live as they did on that farm. It comes from animals whose lives are torture from start to finish, for the sake of cheap meat.
I don't mind killing a chicken, but cramming thousands of them into wire cages on massive factory floors, feeding them rubbish mixed with antibiotics, breeding them so they couldn't walk even if they had the space to... I'm sorry, I just can't take that. And I can't be a part in keeping this machinery going, so I opted out of meat.

The idea that you need meat to make a full meal is a little simplistic. If you want meat in order for you to consider it a full meal, that's ok. But over the years, I've found tons of recipes and ideas for meals that go entirely without meat, and without Quorn as well. When served to meat-eaters, most of them even notice that there is no meat.
The way to go is to not try and reproduce a meat dish without meat, but to make a full dish out of other things.

dermothickey

the why of becoming a vegetarian. For me it was simply because I lived with someone who was a vegetarian, she loved her food and shared her enthusiasm for vegetarianism with me. No other reason, she used to cook the most beautiful food and man I enjoyed it. Another friend of mine was a vegetarian and he used to complain about animal cruelty all the time trying to make me feel guilty about eating meat. I never entertained his criticism, as this was his only reason for not eating meat. 1 annoyed me the other inspired me. So I choose to be inspired by the wonderful variety of foods of being a vegetarian entailed. After a few years I started learning about Yoga and doing meditation this led to a deeper understanding for me.

Bonito

Shenshen wrote: »

Everybody will have slightly different reasons.
Knowing where meat comes from never really bothered me, having spent a good deal of my childhood on a farm and seeing animals being killed for food there.
However, what did sway me was the fact the most meat you get these days does not come from animals who were allowed to live as they did on that farm. It comes from animals whose lives are torture from start to finish, for the sake of cheap meat.
I don't mind killing a chicken, but cramming thousands of them into wire cages on massive factory floors, feeding them rubbish mixed with antibiotics, breeding them so they couldn't walk even if they had the space to... I'm sorry, I just can't take that. And I can't be a part in keeping this machinery going, so I opted out of meat.

The idea that you need meat to make a full meal is a little simplistic. If you want meat in order for you to consider it a full meal, that's ok. But over the years, I've found tons of recipes and ideas for meals that go entirely without meat, and without Quorn as well. When served to meat-eaters, most of them even notice that there is no meat.
The way to go is to not try and reproduce a meat dish without meat, but to make a full dish out of other things.

That's all well and good I have nothing against vegetarians or vegens. I don't see it as a reason to treat them lesser or look down on them in any way. Although some people do, that's not me. If someone has their own reasons as to why they don't eat meat I have much respect for them.

I don't necessarily NEED meat to make a full meal and I'd be far from a simplistic person. I just stick to what I know. If I had the offer of a full meal without meat I would more than gladly give it a try and pretty certain I'd enjoy it but, I wouldn't go about making one myself. I like meat so I cook with it. I also have veg with my meat. There's not a whole deal of foods that I dislike so I would be open to try a new dish anytime I had the opportunity.

If I was making the meal I'd include meat to make it a full meal. Only because I wouldn't know a whole lot of vegetarian dishes. I know some but I wouldn't be up to having them all of the time.

Censorsh!t

Shenshen wrote: »

Everybody will have slightly different reasons.
Knowing where meat comes from never really bothered me, having spent a good deal of my childhood on a farm and seeing animals being killed for food there.
However, what did sway me was the fact the most meat you get these days does not come from animals who were allowed to live as they did on that farm. It comes from animals whose lives are torture from start to finish, for the sake of cheap meat.
I don't mind killing a chicken, but cramming thousands of them into wire cages on massive factory floors, feeding them rubbish mixed with antibiotics, breeding them so they couldn't walk even if they had the space to... I'm sorry, I just can't take that. And I can't be a part in keeping this machinery going, so I opted out of meat.
.

This. I dunno if you could even call a lot of today's animal production 'farming'. It's not about animal husbandry anymore, but about money. I really respect farms that treat their animals well. It's unfortunate that they are declining and being replaced by factory farms.

iUseVi

Censorsh!t wrote: »

This. I dunno if you could even call a lot of today's animal production 'farming'. It's not about animal husbandry anymore, but about money. I really respect farms that treat their animals well. It's unfortunate that they are declining and being replaced by factory farms.

I've been back and forth on this issue myself but is Irish farming that bad though? If I go to my local butchers and buy only locally produced meat, how many of the farms this meat comes from are factory ones?

I grew up on a farm, and all the farmers in the area treated their animals quite well I think, I've seen one or two instances of what could be called factory farming, but nothing as bad as what I've seen on youtube. Just maybe they could have had more space. Most Irish farms are pretty decent, no? I'm open to correction though.

Censorsh!t

iUseVi wrote: »

I've been back and forth on this issue myself but is Irish farming that bad though? If I go to my local butchers and buy only locally produced meat, how many of the farms this meat comes from are factory ones?

I grew up on a farm, and all the farmers in the area treated their animals quite well I think, I've seen one or two instances of what could be called factory farming, but nothing as bad as what I've seen on youtube. Just maybe they could have had more space. Most Irish farms are pretty decent, no? I'm open to correction though.

I'm not too certain really. I did Ag science in school and the methods for raising pigs and chickens that we were taught were the factory farming way. But that's just school...so really dunno!

whirlagigwitch

This would perhaps make people less comfortable with eating meat and with certain farming methods, an interesting abstract.

http://bit.ly/bXv1jj

iUseVi

Anyone else have any info on factory farming in Ireland please? Google is drawing a blank on this for me atm.

EDIT: It seems the UK is pretty bad and the USA is absolutely terrible. But the meat is Irish, but not precisely traced to a specific farm, which is why I'm wondering.

kowloon

You're not going to find too much info easily. One of the industries where bad publicity is just that.

Censorsh!t

http://www.ciwf.ie/

This site may have some info.

It mentions just pigs, chickens(both broiler and laying) and veal.

iUseVi

kowloon wrote: »

You're not going to find too much info easily. One of the industries where bad publicity is just that.

Yeah, I'm really not finding much at all. Either is doesn't exist (unlikely) or its just not being publicised. Although I was kind of expecting animal rights groups to post that sort of info....

Thanks for the link Censorsh!t, but still no real figures for Ireland. Has some stuff on fur farming which I didn't know about. I will continue to look for food farming stuff - I'll post back if I find figures that look half reliable.