LT Training question

--amadeus--

How do,

Quick question... Todays plan called for 10 w/ 4@LT. I don't really know my LT pace but based on an April 10k time of 38:xx and a PMP of 6:41 I estimated it as somewhere in the 6:20 - 6:30 range (closer to 6:30 than 6:20)

4 miles easy was followed by a 6:23, which was too fast. I could feel going into the second mile that I had over cooked it and it ended as a 6:36 (albeit with a headwind and one of those U pedestrian gates slowing me down). but at the end of the mile I knew the pace was unsustainable.

So what should I do:

- Write it off as a bad day, drop to recovery pace and go home, maybe have another crack later in the week
- drop the pace to 6:41 (PMP) for the last two fast miles and have 2*LT and 2*PMP
- Ignore it and power on and do the 2 miles as fast as I can, no matter what, even if teh times drop
- Drop to recovery pace for a mile and then do another block of 2*LT

I did the last option, one 9:03 followed by a 6:30 and a 6:33 (uphill and another of those damn gates but I don't know if I would have been much faster anyway, tbh). My justification was that 2*2@LT isn't as good as 4@LT but it's the next best thing (sort of like Daniels cruise intervals) - at least I did the distance at the correct speed

But what do the rest of you think, was there a better option?

tisnotover

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How do,

Quick question... Todays plan called for 10 w/ 4@LT. I don't really know my LT pace but based on an April 10k time of 38:xx and a PMP of 6:41 I estimated it as somewhere in the 6:20 - 6:30 range (closer to 6:30 than 6:20)

4 miles easy was followed by a 6:23, which was too fast. I could feel going into the second mile that I had over cooked it and it ended as a 6:36 (albeit with a headwind and one of those U pedestrian gates slowing me down). but at the end of the mile I knew the pace was unsustainable.

So what should I do:

- Write it off as a bad day, drop to recovery pace and go home, maybe have another crack later in the week
- drop the pace to 6:41 (PMP) for the last two fast miles and have 2*LT and 2*PMP
- Ignore it and power on and do the 2 miles as fast as I can, no matter what, even if teh times drop
- Drop to recovery pace for a mile and then do another block of 2*LT

I did the last option, one 9:03 followed by a 6:30 and a 6:33 (uphill and another of those damn gates but I don't know if I would have been much faster anyway, tbh). My justification was that 2*2@LT isn't as good as 4@LT but it's the next best thing (sort of like Daniels cruise intervals) - at least I did the distance at the correct speed

But what do the rest of you think, was there a better option?

First off I find these real hard, some gang on here can sail through these type of workouts and for >4miles!
I use a pace range very similar to you at moment, between half marathon and 10mile race pace. Two weeks ago I did 2*2mile averaging 6:23min/mile with 2min recovery between (ignoring warm-up, down).

I don't think I can do 4miles straight like this. I'm hoping that PMP runs which are a bit easier will help me to do LT runs like that at some stage, but for moment, I'll stick with progressing 2*2mile->3*2mile->4*2mile.

BTW, Misty Floyd did something very similar to this last nite in his log.

One thing that I want to try and do the next time, is for the first mile in the 2mile interval is to run it more towards the 6:30 end, not to go out too fast, and then for the final mile, to bring average down as much as I can, of course even-even mile splits is the holy-grail :rolleyes:

Krusty_Clown

I'm on the same PMP, and had the same target for LT (6:20) and did the same session back in December (and another three LT sessions since). The first time I did it (4 miles LT) it was quite difficult, but got easier as time went on (and the distance increased).

One definite advantage I had was that I started the marathon training program immediately after finishing a 10k program, so the speed-work sessions were more manageable (after 5:20 intervals). I think that's why I'm also finding the longer intervals at 5:40 pretty manageable. So, not much use to you specifically Amadeus, but for anyone else launching a marathon program soon, I echo Tergat's advice: start with a 10k program if you want to get a good speed base.

Gringo78

You need a big dose of HTFU when you start off doing tempos for the first time.....they're tough on your own. I do 6 straight miles at LT pace and after 2 miles I usually doubt I can do another 4...I eek them out a mile at a time, the last mile is usually a half mile at a time but you get them done. If I haven't done them for a while i am more conservative on the first tempo, do it 10sec a mile slower than I should be able to and build up to the correct pace or 2 weeks. I think the benefits of these runs are enormous, they teach you to continue running under conditions where you may normally give up. They make PMP miles seems very easy.

Most important thing is to hit the pace I think. If you really can't sustain the pace, you are attempting a pace too fast...build up to it over a number of weeks. Start off with 2 miles and add half a mile each week. I wouldn't be a fan of splitting the tempos up, your body gets into a habit of thinking you get a break after 2 miles....2miles is a short distance in the world of marathon running. 4-6 miles teaches you to run hard uncomfortably for a long time with no break in sight. If your goal is races distances 10 miles and over, its a great session to do every week. It never gets easy, cos when it gets easy, it means your LT pace has got faster (which is the aim of the whole session) so you need to increase the pace.

I think there are many definitions of LT pace but the one I go with the pace you can sustain for an hour...for people in the sub 3 region, thats 10 mile race pace or around 15sec a mile slower than 10k race pace.

asimonov

If the question is what you should have done on the day itself. I'd suggest 2min recovery and then two miles at 6:30. That way the session would be done and you'd have your 4 lt miles in the bag. The question to be answered I suppose is whether the pace was too fast for you right now in your schedule or if you were carrying residual fatigue or some other reason you couldn't sustain it. It's pretty common for people to break their LT run into a few parts. The most important thing is your effort / heart rate is in the right place for the desired amount of time.

Do you wear a heart monitor?

Peckham

I feel that option 1 would be the better option, however the option you took was second best. I find LT running gives a huge psychological boost in the HTFU department.

Always after the first 0.5 miles I find it difficult to imagine holding that pace for another 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 or however many miles are left, so I just take each individual mile as they come and push onto the end of that mile.

Sosa

You picked the right choice Amadeus,all training runs should be done without killing yourself,so if you cannot sustain what you set out to do,drop it down a level and get the best out of it that you can.

Gringo says that his idea of LT pace is the pace you can sustain for an hour...i presume you mean race for an hour.
That would put me at 6:03p for my LT...i could do 6 of those but i think its to fast,it could impact later in the week.
I would keep it under 6:10 and be happy with that.

One thing tergat said last week was that pmp pace and i presume LT pace differ as your training program progresses...
So yours might be 6:30 now,Amadeus,but in 3/4 weeks time you could knock that down to 6:15/20 easy enough.

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

Gringo says that his idea of LT pace is the pace you can sustain for an hour...i presume you mean race for an hour.
That would put me at 6:03p for my LT...i could do 6 of those but i think its to fast,it could impact later in the week.
I would keep it under 6:10 and be happy with that.

You're right on this....I actually correct it by 5 sec a mile for race pace the training LT pace is 10 mile race pace plus 5 sec.

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How do,

Quick question... Todays plan called for 10 w/ 4@LT. I don't really know my LT pace but based on an April 10k time of 38:xx and a PMP of 6:41 I estimated it as somewhere in the 6:20 - 6:30 range (closer to 6:30 than 6:20)

4 miles easy was followed by a 6:23, which was too fast. I could feel going into the second mile that I had over cooked it and it ended as a 6:36 (albeit with a headwind and one of those U pedestrian gates slowing me down). but at the end of the mile I knew the pace was unsustainable.

So what should I do:

- Write it off as a bad day, drop to recovery pace and go home, maybe have another crack later in the week
- drop the pace to 6:41 (PMP) for the last two fast miles and have 2*LT and 2*PMP
- Ignore it and power on and do the 2 miles as fast as I can, no matter what, even if teh times drop
- Drop to recovery pace for a mile and then do another block of 2*LT

I did the last option, one 9:03 followed by a 6:30 and a 6:33 (uphill and another of those damn gates but I don't know if I would have been much faster anyway, tbh). My justification was that 2*2@LT isn't as good as 4@LT but it's the next best thing (sort of like Daniels cruise intervals) - at least I did the distance at the correct speed

But what do the rest of you think, was there a better option?

O/T a little maybe but relevant - what is LT? I know the 'L' stands for lactate and the 'T' for threshold, but what is LT?

Functional threshold?
OBLA?
Is the LT you are refering to LT1 or LT2?
Ventilatory rate?

Very different definitions, very different things.

--amadeus--

An excellent set of replies, thank you.

The idea of a 2 min break and then picking up again never even occurred to me but would have been better than the full mile recovery. And there is an element of HTFU and SIU. I hate LT runs, always have and probably went into it with a bit of doubt in my head. Which of course makes it easier to jack the session when things go wrong

Far and away the biggest thing I'm getting from the above though is pace and that (along with Tergats post about training to current fitness rather than projected race times) has got me thinking that I need to re-assess my paces. I haven't done any major distance at PMP yet (longest was 4 at the end of a 12 mile progression run) but I don't find that pace too tough. I mean it's not easy but I'm not hanging either. But I'm basing my LT off a 10k in April and a marathon in Oct and ignoring the 3 months of hit and miss training since then that have left me a long way short of race fitness and pace. I think I was simply asking for too much from my legs. I'm not planning any races in the next while but I think a 10k time trial might be a good idea to give me a realistic platform to calculate VO2 max and LT pace.

Thanks again, much appreciated!

--amadeus--

tunney wrote: »

O/T a little maybe but relevant - what is LT? I know the 'L' stands for lactate and the 'T' for threshold, but what is LT?

Functional threshold?
OBLA?
Is the LT you are refering to LT1 or LT2?
Ventilatory rate?

Very different definitions, very different things.

Ahhh, we're not all that scientific!

In P&D LT refers to the lactate turnpoint so if you are running at LT pace you are running in or around teh point where lactate will start to accumulate. I think that Noakes has debunked the whole concept of a turnpoint but I'm just a runner, the plan says run X, I try to run X!

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I hate LT runs, always have and probably went into it with a bit of doubt in my head. Which of course makes it easier to jack the session when things go wrong

deplore them also...the only run of the week that I do not look forward to. I found early on that I needed to have it clear in my head before I went out on the run what was acceptable...i.e 4, 5 or 6. Never start off by saying I'll do 4 and see how i feel, maybe add an extra 1 or 2 on...you'll always end up only doing 4 then.

Likewise, if you're going to do the 2min break thing, decide beforehand. If the 2min break in the middle is going to be a fallback position..penalise yourself for resorting to it i.e if the plan was 4 straight at LT, decide beforehand that the penalty for jacking it after 2 for a 2min break is that you must do 3 x 2miles with 2min breaks at LT rather than 4 miles straight at LT...you will not jack it in so easy then after the 2 miles.

Pacewise, doing tempo on the road is hard, you need to drop the pace by 10sec a mile going up a hill or into the wind or increase it by 10sec a mile going downhill or with the wind. You ruin the session by running the first 2 miles into a headwind trying to hold LT pace.....you'll burn out. Flipside is I think it gives you a good appreciation of how you should vary pace +-10sec in the marathon depending on conditions at that moment in time i.e are you running with a group, into or with the wind, up or downhill, sheltered or sunny.

asimonov

Gringo78 wrote: »

deplore them also...the only run of the week that I do not look forward to. I found early on that I needed to have it clear in my head before I went out on the run what was acceptable...i.e 4, 5 or 6. Never start off by saying I'll do 4 and see how i feel, maybe add an extra 1 or 2 on...you'll always end up only doing 4 then.

Likewise, if you're going to do the 2min break thing, decide beforehand. If the 2min break in the middle is going to be a fallback position..penalise yourself for resorting to it i.e if the plan was 4 straight at LT, decide beforehand that the penalty for jacking it after 2 for a 2min break is that you must do 3 x 2miles with 2min breaks at LT rather than 4 miles straight at LT...you will not jack it in so easy then after the 2 miles.

Pacewise, doing tempo on the road is hard, you need to drop the pace by 10sec a mile going up a hill or into the wind or increase it by 10sec a mile going downhill or with the wind. You ruin the session by running the first 2 miles into a headwind trying to hold LT pace.....you'll burn out. Flipside is I think it gives you a good appreciation of how you should vary pace +-10sec in the marathon depending on conditions at that moment in time i.e are you running with a group, into or with the wind, up or downhill, sheltered or sunny.

i found it helps to programme the workout into the garmin and just obey the watch.

shotgunmcos

asimonov wrote: »

i found it helps to programme the workout into the garmin and just obey the watch.

+1 on this if you are training on your own. I'm working off VDOT paces (http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm) so for a recent run I just set the run plan up on the Garmin and when it beeped I just ran at the planned pace as best I could until it beeped again. Later inspecting the data I was on the money for the plan LT paces, even bit better without going over the target heart rate.

This was significant for me in that lately running training has sucked and this one of the few that went to plan. Essentially its all in your head if you are training correctly... for these sessions you just have to go for it and hold on. I didn't have to think about the rep duration .. just pushing to keep going until the yoke buzzzed and told me to rest

Krusty_Clown

I do the same and find the distance count-down timer invaluable on tempo and interval runs. Glancing at the watch occasionally to see what you have left really helps with the motivation. This wouldn't be a problem on a measured track where you can see the finish line and count your laps (or often might have someone to follow/chase), but out in the open, on an unmeasured circuit, it can be easy to lose hope when you don't know what you have left to do.

Also when doing 10k intervals (e.g. 12x400) I cannot keep count of how many I have done. I know it's just a case of counting to 12, I'm just easily distracted. Even with the watch doing the hard work, I can't count the number of times I have set off on an imaginary extra interval...

tergat

Hi all,

Tempos have different meanings to different people. To me, it is a range of intensities from just above moderate to just below hard paces.

In my opinion, what you use for tempos depends upon (at least) four factors:

1) your current fitness level. The slower you are or the less fit you are the more likely you should use lower intensities;

2) your goal race-distance. The shorter the race distance distance the more important it would be to use harder (faster) tempos in training;

3) your time-frame. If you are far away from your goal race, using lower intensity, longer duration tempos is a good idea (this is my opinion based on experience only). The closer you are to a race the more important it is to simulate the type of intensity you'll be facing in a race. Thus, if you were close to a big 5k race then using fast tempos would be a good idea. If you are close to a marathon race, longer but slower tempos would probably work well and be the most helpful in terms of improving race-performance.

4) your natural capacities. Simply put, one runner may thrive on faster but shorter tempos while another may thrive on longer and slower tempos. It's a personal thing.


Some Guidelines below (Remember use CURRENT pace):
Long Tempos - Current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per minute
Medium Tempos - Current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Short Tempos - Current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile
CV Intervals - Current 5k pace plus 8-12 seconds per km

CV pace is the center of the training zone or range for distance runners, it covers 95% of all the things you need. It raises VO2 max. It raises LT or AnT or whatever you want to call it. It improves efficiency. It raises overall leg strength (substantially more than easy distance running) and nearly as much as much as VO2 max - which is 100% of aerobic power - because you can do a lot of CV compared to VO2 max pace.

The above are examples of straight tempos continuos 3-8 mile runs. LT intervals can be anything from 800m-3 mile reps broken up by 30 secs-3 mins jog recoveries.

LT Workout ideas: without getting fancy, use the following rules of thumb:

Short intervals (800m reps): 5k pace plus 20 seconds per mile (rest 30 sec. per 800)

Medium intervals (1 mile reps): 5k pace plus 30 seconds per mile (rest 1 minute per mile)

Long intervals (1.5 mile reps): 5k pace plus 40 seconds per mie (rest 1.5 minutes per 1.5 miles)

People can also go by time eg 3*10 mins or 4*8 mins etc and use a HR monitor and go by feel (this is best way to go about it, listen to your own body). You can also use progression runs of say 40-70 mins starting easy and moving into a steady pace after say 20 mins and finish strong but no faster then 10 mile race pace. These are really beneficial but need to keep controlled.

Lactate Threshold pace is (theoretically) the fastest pace you can hold before lactate rises at a substantially elevated and disproportional rate. Typically coaches talk about 1-hr race pace when using the term LT. Physiologists use laboratory methods or techniques to identify LT.

There is debate about LT. Some people argue about how it is assessed. Others argue about whether it really exists. In a practical way, it doesn’t matter if it really exists. What counts is this: The speed, velocity or power output at a given sub-max lactate does relate directly to metabolic demands and efficiency. If you train wisely, you will be able to run faster or generate more power at a given lactate level. This means you’ll race faster. If you ran 6:00 per mile pace at a 4 mmol of lactate a month ago and now you run 5:52, then your training was effective. That is what counts.

But REMEMBER this training takes TIME to develop but if you decide to go with it, YOU WILL reap the rewards. It is what gives you the strength to hold a given race pace from any distance 800m-Marathon.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Tergat

T runner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How do,
Quick question... Todays plan called for 10 w/ 4@LT. I don't really know my LT pace but based on an April 10k time of 38:xx and a PMP of 6:41 I estimated it as somewhere in the 6:20 - 6:30 range (closer to 6:30 than 6:20)

Hi Amadeus. A subjective way to gauge LT pace might be to imagine yourself starting out a 10k race deliberatly steady and hoping to pick up to full pace after a couple of K. That initial pace good leg turnover but relatively comfortable and controlled would correspond to LT pace.

4 miles easy was followed by a 6:23, which was too fast. I could feel going into the second mile that I had over cooked it and it ended as a 6:36 (albeit with a headwind and one of those U pedestrian gates slowing me down). but at the end of the mile I knew the pace was unsustainable.

I think the acceleration from mile 4 to mile 5 was too much. It is a big jump in heart rate.

A LT run pace profile might resemble a bell shape. From Mile 2.5 on should have been used to accelerate to MP and then to HMP. At the start of mile 5 you slowly accelerate to the controlled pace one step down form 10k pace. Gradually slow back to HM pace for the last half mile and then decelerate for cool down.


By slowly incresing a controlled pace you remove the danger of running too fast. Concentrate on a controlled tempo and high leg turnover from the outset.

So what should I do:

- Write it off as a bad day, drop to recovery pace and go home, maybe have another crack later in the week
- drop the pace to 6:41 (PMP) for the last two fast miles and have 2*LT and 2*PMP
- Ignore it and power on and do the 2 miles as fast as I can, no matter what, even if teh times drop
- Drop to recovery pace for a mile and then do another block of 2*LT

I did the last option, one 9:03 followed by a 6:30 and a 6:33 (uphill and another of those damn gates but I don't know if I would have been much faster anyway, tbh). My justification was that 2*2@LT isn't as good as 4@LT but it's the next best thing (sort of like Daniels cruise intervals) - at least I did the distance at the correct speed
But what do the rest of you think, was there a better option?

Another option is two do consequative Ks at 10 mile race pace and HM race pace. The idea is to bring your HM pace and thus MP as close to possible to 10mile pace. You initially concentrate on reducing your 10m pace for a few sessions and then hold that pace and bring the HM ks down.

Ive done this session a couple of times but have never ran a marathon so its only theory I read somewhere. That said I found it a challenging and enjoyable session.


Was wondering if this LT run was the fastest run you have done in a while?

The reason is that I reckon for a LT run your LT and stamina should be the limiting factors not leg speed or sluggishness due to a lot of slower paced running. Before starting on a series of tempos I reckon you should do one speed-endurance type session. 3k-5k race pace would do. something like 10 ny 400 fast and relaxed with a minute between . This gets any viscosity out of the legs and gets you used to turning your legs over so you are feeling a bit zippier for the tempos each You need to keep a good cadence for the tempos I reckon and this session means you will ahve that.

As Tergat said the type of tempo you chose to do depends on many factors.

I do those CV reps with my club. Have been doing a lot of mileage and CC races. One session of CV reps had a huge impact on my average speed.

You dont need to do them too often if you are doing long/medium long hard runs for marathon but one every other week really complements the other training.

--amadeus--

Wow, genuinely impressed and grateful for the thought (and expertise) that has gone into those replies, a huge thank you.

In particular the idea of easing into the LT runs makes a huge amount of sense and as I said above a recalibration of teh pace is clearly needed.

Again, thanks.