Can Horse Trainers be charged for race fixing?

Howjoe1

Ireland seems to be far more lenient then anywhere else.

Today Gordon Elliot runs a horse called Cayo Levantado in 4.25 Puchestown.

From a price of 20/1, which would seem correct, it has been backed down to 6/4 in a 22 runner race!

It has absolutely no form . I have seen and no for a fact that seriuos money has been punted on it throughout all offices in Co Meath.

It was even put in doubles with another Gordon Elliot runner, Newtown Bridge. But surprise surprise..Newtown Bridge is not running now !!! handy vets cert at the last minute.

If this horse suddenly shows winning form what's the likelihood of HRI having an enquiry ?

Whyno

Trainers always have an excuse...Rothwell is a master of this....Tony Martin being the main instigator:D

UrbanSea

Mr Byrnes anyone?
I was going to post this.
This happens alot in Irish racing. The bells start ringing in the morning as a horse with no from is gettin backed with everyone. Victor chandler had him at 11/8 at one stage this morning. Backed it myself at 5/2 with powers,it's usually a tell tale sign of a horse expected to have a big run. Hills had him at 7/2 at one stage. 5 minutes later it was 11/4. Serious money being bet.

Diggy78

well, he beat that home anyway, thought the gamble was cooked before the last

UrbanSea

Diggy78 wrote: »

well, he beat that home anyway, thought the gamble was cooked before the last

So did I,ran on very well though,flew home

Keano

Whyno wrote: »

Trainers always have an excuse...Rothwell is a master of this....Tony Martin being the main instigator:D

Tony Martion ftw.

Howjoe1

surprise surprise...it won !

Ireland Horse and Greyhound racing in so corrupt. But look at Government we have, part of the Irish way.

Morgans

I hope all those who lost money on the horse in its past efforts (sps of 16/1, 33/1, 20/1, 50/1, 50/1, 25/1, and 25/1) made their money back.

It would be great if the whole handicap system was turned up side down and there was no "corruption" in racing.

I didnt back the horse today, but learning how to read the market is a skill that needs to be learned. There is no point complaining about it as long as their is a handicap system there will be people trying to get an edge.

Maybe all those who got involved in the gamble should give their money back.

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

I hope all those who lost money on the horse in its past efforts (sps of 16/1, 33/1, 20/1, 50/1, 50/1, 25/1, and 25/1) made their money back.

It would be great if the whole handicap system was turned up side down and there was no "corruption" in racing.

I didnt back the horse today, but learning how to read the market is a skill that needs to be learned. There is no point complaining about it as long as their is a handicap system there will be people trying to get an edge.

Maybe all those who got involved in the gamble should give their money back.

By all those do you mean literally everyone or the trainer/owners/friends etc that started the gamble?
I had 20 on it myself but that's just because I saw the huge amount of money that had gone on it and anyone who follows Irish racing realises that when something like this occurs,it is usually a good thing.
What's the harm in getting 50 quid off paddy power?

Morgans

greetings wrote: »

By all those do you mean literally everyone or the trainer/owners/friends etc that started the gamble?
I had 20 on it myself but that's just because I saw the huge amount of money that had gone on it and anyone who follows Irish racing realises that when something like this occurs,it is usually a good thing.
What's the harm in getting 50 quid off paddy power?

Exactly. I think you should enjoy your winnings. You read the market correctly. Even if she was beaten today, she looks one to keep on the right side of.

I'd have some sympathy for novices having a fiver or tenner on a Martin, Byrnes or Flynn horse that drifts from 5s to 12s and see him trail in last. You have to learn somehow.

Watching racing long enough you will see which trainers are shrewder than others, and which money to listen to.

UrbanSea

Ah understood. It is the people who back the drifters and they get pulled that you'd feel sorry for.

RichieLawlor

greetings wrote: »

Ah understood. It is the people who back the drifters and they get pulled that you'd feel sorry for.

like Morgans said, anyone who backs a big drifter from Byrnes or Martin et all deserve to be parted from there money

UrbanSea

Not if they aren't that much into racing and don't realise the signs coming from those drifts.
The only way to learn is by losing money,no matter how small the amount.You know for again(At least I always find that)
My example-betting on handicaps. Very rarely do I do it. Today being one of the exceptions after I saw the market move for the winner.

RichieLawlor

greetings wrote: »

by losing money

Lose Money? wtf, are you mad, How.

Your ideas intrigue me, i would like to subscribe to your pamhlet and/or handbook

Morgans

greetings wrote: »

Not if they aren't that much into racing and don't realise the signs coming from those drifts.
The only way to learn is by losing money,no matter how small the amount.You know for again(At least I always find that)
My example-betting on handicaps. Very rarely do I do it. Today being one of the exceptions after I saw the market move for the winner.

You don't have to bet to learn how the market works, but it you probably learn quicker by doing so. Exchanges have changed how bookies show work - for the better IMO, but its another wrinkle that you have to learn. There is always something.

UrbanSea

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Lose Money? wtf, are you mad, How.

Your ideas intrigue me, i would like to subscribe to your pamhlet and/or handbook

So would you not learn from something quickly if you lost money because of it?

Juwwi

RichieLawlor wrote: »

like Morgans said, anyone who backs a big drifter from Byrnes or Martin et all deserve to be parted from there money

No one deserves to lose their money by backing a horse that isnt trying.

Colonel Sanders

Did the stewards even ask a question after this or were they asleep at the wheel as per usual.

Steward: Explain.
Gordon: We actualy had a few bob on this time
Steward: Ah that explains it, carry on...

There are too many examples of the likes of this to name but Vinnie's Friend at Wexford sticks in my mind

Siegemaster In Charge At Wexford

Siegemaster was undoubtedly the most talented performer on Saturday’s card at Wexford and the eight-year-old duly justified odds-on favouritism in the Casey Enterprises Chase without undue fuss. Dessie Hughes’ charge was ridden by Davy Russell and didn’t need to break sweat to see off the challenge of Tasman by 4½ lengths. There was a substantial gamble landed in the Wexford Racecourse Supporters Club Handicap Hurdle with the Philip Rothwell-trained Vinnes Friend comfortably justifying the support that saw him backed from 25/1 to 7/2 under Shane Jackson.

Morgans

I know I wasn't quoted directly, but just to clarify, I never said that those who back non-triers deserve to lose their money. I have sympathy for those who do.

I just don't have much sympathy for those whining about the corruption within Irish racing when a gamble like today is landed.

Juwwi

This is one race from years ago that got a bit of attention at the time after the race.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/result_home.sd?race_id=32615&r_date=1989-12-29&popup=yes


heres a newspaper article l found

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/1996/1113/96111300028.html

Juwwi

Morgans wrote: »

I know I wasn't quoted directly, but just to clarify, I never said that those who back non-triers deserve to lose their money. I have sympathy for those who do.

I just don't have much sympathy for those whining about the corruption within Irish racing when a gamble like today is landed.

ah yea l was'nt quoting u there.

do u remember that 2 horse race morgans?

Morgans

robbie1977 wrote: »

ah yea l was'nt quoting u there.

do u remember that 2 horse race morgans?

I cant remember that. Remember both horses well and Redundant Pal winning the Ladbroke, but not that race for some reason. In all the races Ive seen the most blatant example of non-trying was Laetitia at Cork. Even the most punters (apart from those who bet in running, who were cheated blind) would have collected as they would have followed the Byrnes money and bet on the 4/1 Alpha Royale.

I do remember watching Graham Bradley run out on even money favourite at Warwick once, maybe 1992, a horse I thought was a good thing, only to find out that it was subject to an investigation afterwards.

Have to say that I just think that its wrong to be too precious about it. Not to mind the handicaps, 2/3s of maiden hurdles aren't trying and essentially are dismissed by punters. Every so often one pops up, but you have to take it on the chin when it happens. It is usually one of the those at the head of the market that wins. The size of the fields and the stinginess of the bookies (outsiders at 20/1 rather than 66/1 in the UK) often means you get decent forecast returns.

Now, there are several times Ive heard stories that make me despair. ONe famous one was of a famous Irish owner pulling the favourite for the Foxhunters at CHeltenham because he couldnt get enough of a bet on. There must have been millions on the horse throughout Ireland and England. Jockey was too talented to bring it to anyone's attention.

I'm of the opinion that even in a maiden where 2/3s of the owners arent trying, they all believe that they are the moral winners of the race. All think that when they are trying that they will win. It's then you find out whether you have a good trainer or not.

krustydoyle

What i don't get is why haven't the stewards pulled him in over it?? right the horse hadn't run in 91 days but he had no head gear or tongue tie on to suggest they would improve him... Like these questions have to be asked and answered.. Gordon Elliott is a decent trainer for landing the gambles(not half as good as Stuart Williams on the flat) but its clear to see the yard was on big time.. prob had them cueing up to still get on when it came into 14's and 12's..

I just don't understand in how he'll stand in front of the steward's and give them some bull****e excuse and that'll be that...

I'll have anything with ye that the horse wont win again for a long time...

:mad::mad::mad:

Juwwi

Redundant pal won the ladbroke in his next race after the 2 horse race.

in the ladbroke firions law finished 20th getting an extra 6lb more than he got in the other race.

jasus just seen who finished 19th in the ladbroke.
Jim Bolgers Elementary .

does any1 ever remember a horse called Doby Thatcher.
l used to follow it religiuosly

Morgans

krustydoyle wrote: »

What i don't get is why haven't the stewards pulled him in over it?? right the horse hadn't run in 91 days but he had no head gear or tongue tie on to suggest they would improve him... Like these questions have to be asked and answered.. Gordon Elliott is a decent trainer for landing the gambles(not half as good as Stuart Williams on the flat) but its clear to see the yard was on big time.. prob had them cueing up to still get on when it came into 14's and 12's..

I just don't understand in how he'll stand in front of the steward's and give them some bull****e excuse and that'll be that...

I'll have anything with ye that the horse wont win again for a long time...

:mad::mad::mad:

I think with a gamble like that its clear that connections thought it was running in the wrong grade. Was a smart point to pointer and Im sure the heavy ground and extended trip helped. I wouldnt be surprised if she turned out smart. Just like Laetitia Solwhit and the countless Martin job horses.

Colonel Sanders

Unfortunately Irish stewards are either completely incompetent, or complicit in what goes on every day, or simply haven't the guts to do their jobs properly. Probably a little of all three. You see it time and time again. Small trainers and inexperienced jockeys are thrown to the wolves the odd time to keep up appearances while certain individuals remain untouchable. It is frustrating. Most hardened followers of the sport know what goes on and shrug when they back a non trier but it's novices trying to have a bet I feel sorry for.

Colonel Sanders

One of the worst I ever saw was back in 2004 or 2005. Charlie Swan trained a horse called Da Bookie. Ran a sound race at Leopardstown behind a gambled on horse of Con Collins called The Carbon Unit. The Carbon Unit went up about 5lbs and won again a week or two later at the Curragh. When Da Bookie ran next, at Gowran park if I remember correctly, he started favourite. I backed it to small stakes. Tadhg O'Shea rode it. At least twice he had a clear run when they entered the straight and he blatantly steered the horse into the backs of others in the race. Low and behold landed a gamble next time out at Galway (not the festival meeting) and I didn't have anywhere near enough on!

Howjoe1

krustydoyle wrote: »

What i don't get is why haven't the stewards pulled him in over it?? right the horse hadn't run in 91 days but he had no head gear or tongue tie on to suggest they would improve him... Like these questions have to be asked and answered.. Gordon Elliott is a decent trainer for landing the gambles(not half as good as Stuart Williams on the flat) but its clear to see the yard was on big time.. prob had them cueing up to still get on when it came into 14's and 12's..

I just don't understand in how he'll stand in front of the steward's and give them some bull****e excuse and that'll be that...

I'll have anything with ye that the horse wont win again for a long time...

:mad::mad::mad:

True.

Elliott's post race comments:

"He's a big old fashioned horse who has had a lot of problems," said Elliott.
"We train him out of a field now and it seems to work for him. He just came alive over the last couple of weeks."

On course he never mentioned in advanced it had a chance.

Strangely, I heard last xmas (someone with a loose tongue with drink on him)that this was being planned.

Wasn't it risky doubling it with Newtown Bridge in the 2.25 ? running against higher class horses with odds on fav. Strange they didn't take the 33/1 available on Newtown Bridge ?

Barry Callaghan onwer and co-owner of both horses. Oh, then Newtown Bridge pulls out of the 2.25 at the 11th hour :rolleyes:

Kauto

Lads i got no word about the horse but took a chance at 20/1 for small money. I saw the horse win its point to point and it was clear to see the horse had a bit of ability from its maiden hurdle runs and two handicap runs alone. If ye bother to watch previous runs of these horses on attheraces ye might see that. This owner bought off nice touch with Dr Kldare up north last year. I also have no sympathy for people backing no triers in maidens. Anyone can look at a field brfore a race and say at least 2/3 of the field wont be trying.

Howjoe1

Kauto wrote: »

Lads i got no word about the horse but took a chance at 20/1 for small money. I saw the horse win its point to point and it was clear to see the horse had a bit of ability from its maiden hurdle runs and two handicap runs alone. If ye bother to watch previous runs of these horses on attheraces ye might see that. This owner bought off nice touch with Dr Kldare up north last year. I also have no sympathy for people backing no triers in maidens. Anyone can look at a field brfore a race and say at least 2/3 of the field wont be trying.

The only way you could have got on at that price is if you were part of the betting coup syndicate, such was the speed that the price was cut. This horse has been a non trier in the past, so how could an ordinary decent punter have known to back in with confidence in a 22 runner field.

Kauto

I backed the horse at 9.46 with Bet 365. They have their prices out at 9.30 every morning. The horse was 20/1 with them untill 10.27.

Kauto

I took a chance on the horse. They were going to have to go with him sooner rather than later. If he was non trier it was my own fault.

Whyno

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Did the stewards even ask a question after this or were they asleep at the wheel as per usual.

Steward: Explain.
Gordon: We actualy had a few bob on this time
Steward: Ah that explains it, carry on...

There are too many examples of the likes of this to name but Vinnie's Friend at Wexford sticks in my mind

Rothwell was brought up over this and the horses last run to. Hes been fined over some of his horses being gambled on and winning last year.
There probably is no real foolsure way of stopping this type of corruption in horse racing or greyhound racing but all i hope is that i`m on the one whos winning

chancer_007

Anyone know how much money connections really got on?
I doubt it was much as when 1 bookies change a price,they rest simply follow without taking a penny.
I suspect the biggest bet would have been €100 ew @20/1
Am delighted for connections that they got back money off the biggest crooks in the industry,the bookies!!

UrbanSea

I dunno,some trainers would be bigger crooks than bookies in certain cases.

mr.jingle

Was in paddypower yesterday morning around 11 and was just writing out my yankee had horses written down.Grandad Bill,Moulin de la croix(8/1)Golden Sunbird(3/!) and My Name Is Franco(5/2). Then heard on the voiceover about the gamble and when i heard it was Elliotts i just had to put him in and got 7/2! Pity i took out Grandad Bill(won 15/2) instead of Golden Sunbird(2nd @3/1 beaten a short head):mad::mad: Still got a few bob!

Watch out over the next 2-3 weeks this is the gambling season with Cheltenham on the horizon and some stables getting there Cheltenham funds!;)

Juwwi

C Byrnes trained cyborg was backed in from 20/1 early morning to 3/1
and wins the 5.40 ballinrobe.

a 7lb claimer was down to ride the horse but there was a jockey change
and Andrew Mcnamara was then meant to ride but then a new 7lb claimer rode it in the end.

finbarrk

Charlie said Mr Wilmott had a few quid on in the morning allright. He said they knew he would appreciate the good ground.

mountai

Why is anyone surprised when a TOUCH comes off?? IF I had a horse in training , then the obvious thing to do is to LAY HIM OUT for a race. No way is it FIXING a race when the TOUCH comes off.Anyone who takes money from a bookie is a hero in my eyes , ---- BOOKIES RULES

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"THOU SHALL NOT WIN"

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So when they are stung , I"m reallyy sorry for them!!!!!

cson

mountai wrote: »

, ---- BOOKIES RULES

---

"THOU SHALL NOT WIN"

---

So when they are stung , I"m reallyy sorry for them!!!!!

Any of the betting firms largely operate on the rough principle that if you go in there with €100, they want you to come out with €80 - ie have enough to keep coming back. By the way; of course they don't want you to win. If they didn't they'd be registered as charities.

amiable

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Ireland seems to be far more lenient then anywhere else.

Today Gordon Elliot runs a horse called Cayo Levantado in 4.25 Puchestown.

From a price of 20/1, which would seem correct, it has been backed down to 6/4 in a 22 runner race!

It has absolutely no form . I have seen and no for a fact that seriuos money has been punted on it throughout all offices in Co Meath.

It was even put in doubles with another Gordon Elliot runner, Newtown Bridge. But surprise surprise..Newtown Bridge is not running now !!! handy vets cert at the last minute.

If this horse suddenly shows winning form what's the likelihood of HRI having an enquiry ?

The Bookies are to blame for this too sometimes.
Sometimes they create a false gamble and pretend that there is more interest in a horse than there actually is. They usually do it for certain stables

UrbanSea

amiable wrote: »

The Bookies are to blame for this too sometimes.
Sometimes they create a false gamble and pretend that there is more interest in a horse than there actually is. They usually do it for certain stables

Bast*rds.


*: Mod edit