Broadstone Station - New Railway Heritage Museum?

Son of Stupido

I am not sure if people are aware of the existance of the Midland Great Western terminius at Broadstone.

The buildings (& buildings) survive currently as a bus wash & garage.

The buildings in their own right are of very significant architectural heritage importance, especially the cast iron train shed, which at time of construction was an innovative design and influenced many of the great Victorian stations in Britain.

Surely this could be saved and turned into a proper railway museum for Dublin (& Ireland)?

The new Luas line BXD will be just in front of the building, and the proposed landscaping will dramatically re-introduce the building to the city.


http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/northcity/constitution_hill/broadstone.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadstone_Station

http://www.industrialheritageireland.info/railways/broadstone/

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/battle-of-broadstone-1262907.html

Judgement Day

The National Railway Museum is already going ahead at that metropolis in the west - Moyasta Junction. Besides CIE own Broadstone so forget it.

paulm17781

I don't like 'heritage' threads here as they have nothing to do with commuting or transport but...

I would like to see some use made of Broadstone, it is such an impressive building. It strikes me as a waste being used as a bus garage. I would like to see it used for rail services again (though I don't think it necessary) though some form of museum would surely be better than a bus garage.

Son of Stupido

paulm17781 wrote: »

I don't like 'heritage' threads here as they have nothing to do with commuting or transport but...

I would like to see some use made of Broadstone, it is such an impressive building. It strikes me as a waste being used as a bus garage. I would like to see it used for rail services again (though I don't think it necessary) though some form of museum would surely be better than a bus garage.

My personal option would be to re-open intercity services to the west from the station, but I think it is unlikely, given that IE are so progressive.

The two luas lines proposed (BXD & E) would suddenly make Broadstone very connected to the city, and intercity services could stop there.

However I think a museum is a more likely option if we are to get a train use for the buildings (more political pressure!).


Note: Luas BXD (O'connell street to Broombridge) is going ahead. Line E was proposed to come Dundrum, up under Christchurch and up to broadstone, but it has been shelved for now I think.

paulm17781

Son of Stupido wrote: »

My personal option would be to re-open intercity services to the west from the station, but I think it is unlikely, given that IE are so progressive.

There's no gain though. They'd still have to use the same tracks from Heuston. I don't think Heuston is short on capacity and I don't think it's any closer to the city.

dowlingm

One of the primary components of a national transport museum for me would be archival material - can't see the IRRS folks at Heuston parting with that lightly. Also - where would you move the DB garage to? That's an important question if you're clearing out Broadstone.

Cool Mo D

paulm17781 wrote: »

There's no gain though. They'd still have to use the same tracks from Heuston. I don't think Heuston is short on capacity and I don't think it's any closer to the city.

Broadstone is closer to O'Connell street than Connolly station, so it's definitely closer than Heuston.

Still, being on a Luas line would be more useful than a new rail terminus.

KC61

Son of Stupido wrote: »

My personal option would be to re-open intercity services to the west from the station, but I think it is unlikely, given that IE are so progressive.

paulm17781 wrote: »

There's no gain though. They'd still have to use the same tracks from Heuston. I don't think Heuston is short on capacity and I don't think it's any closer to the city.

Correct Paulm. If the OP is suggesting that all services to Galway and Mayo operate from Broadstone rather than Heuston then there is absolutely no point to this. Why?

Trains from Broadstone would have to use the line via Maynooth, Mullingar and Moate, a line that is:
a)

Longer
b) Slower
c) Far more congested given it is a busy two line commuter route

than the lines out of Heuston.

2) You would lose connectivity with the Cork and Waterford routes.

Docklands has provided an alternative station - we hardly need another.

dowlingm wrote: »

Also - where would you move the DB garage to? That's an important question if you're clearing out Broadstone.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann need a depot in Dublin city centre as well as the suburbs - Broadstone provides that in a perfectly suitable location.

Judgement Day

One point on which I will agree with the OP is the need to do something worthwhile with Broadstone and using it as a dirty old bus depot is a waste of a superb building. The bus garage could be put in any number of locations and it need not be housed in a building of such architectural importance. Of course it would have been an ideal location for a transport museum and was suggested for same many times but nobody was listening - shades of Hangar 6. The country is littered with buildings that belong to the state which are being wastefully used but the 'powers that be' are incapable of the outside the box thinking which would be required. One such institution closer to my home is the palatial Shelton Abbey near Arklow - the former home of the Earls of Wicklow - and now an open prison. King James II spent the night here on his retreat from the Battle of the Boyne and it would be a tourist attraction in any other country instead of providing a cushy refuge for scumbags. Sorry for going off topic here but I hope you get my point.

delta_bravo

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Broadstone is closer to O'Connell street than Connolly station,

No its not. From walking it I know it takes about 10 minutes from Connolly to O'Connell St. and O'Connell St to Broadstone is about 15 at a brisk pace and its also uphill. Wouldnt matter for rail I suppose but you notice it as a pedestrian

Cool Mo D

delta_bravo wrote: »

No its not. From walking it I know it takes about 10 minutes from Connolly to O'Connell St. and O'Connell St to Broadstone is about 15 at a brisk pace and its also uphill. Wouldnt matter for rail I suppose but you notice it as a pedestrian

It's almost exactly 1km from Broadstone to the top of O'Connell street, and it's a little bit longer from O'Connell street to the Dart platforms at Connolly. It just seems longer because Broadstone is uphill, and outside what would usually be considered the city centre.

JHMEG

Judgement Day wrote: »

One point on which I will agree with the OP is the need to do something worthwhile with Broadstone and using it as a dirty old bus depot is a waste of a superb building.

It could continue to be used as a bus depot. The problem is BE have no taste or pride.

JHMEG

Son of Stupido wrote: »

My personal option would be to re-open intercity services to the west from the station,

The last thing Dublin (and Ireland) needs is yet another rail terminus.

Judgement Day

JHMEG wrote: »

It could continue to be used as a bus depot. The problem is BE have no taste or pride.

Heritage buildings are too important to be used for such purposes and in terms of tourism Broadstone is a worthwhile asset but not as presently utilised.

monument

Son of Stupido wrote: »

My personal option would be to re-open intercity services to the west from the station, but I think it is unlikely, given that IE are so progressive.

The two luas lines proposed (BXD & E) would suddenly make Broadstone very connected to the city, and intercity services could stop there.

However I think a museum is a more likely option if we are to get a train use for the buildings (more political pressure!).


Note: Luas BXD (O'connell street to Broombridge) is going ahead. Line E was proposed to come Dundrum, up under Christchurch and up to broadstone, but it has been shelved for now I think.

Luas BXD is to use the old railway alignment to Broadstone, there would be no way for Intercity services to get to-from the station.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It's almost exactly 1km from Broadstone to the top of O'Connell street, and it's a little bit longer from O'Connell street to the Dart platforms at Connolly. It just seems longer because Broadstone is uphill, and outside what would usually be considered the city centre.

This is by far not the first time on here that it's been claimed that Broadstone is closer to O'Connell Street than Connolly, so I looked it up on Google Maps with the distance measuring tool:

It's about 700m from O'Connell Street to Connolly Station. It's a flat, straight street. To the Dart platforms is about another 200m, so you're talking about little over 900m in total from O'Connell Street to the Dart at Connolly Station (I'm not sure why one would be measuring the distance to the Dart given that Tara Street Station is about 300m from O'Connell Bridge).

On the other hand O'Connell Street to Broadstone is slightly over 1km and that's to the north end of O'Connell Street (The distances given to Connolly Station, are from the busier end). And as you said you're self, Broadstone is up hill.

Even as the bird flies, Broadstone is further away.

I probably should bookmark this post, it's only a matter of time before the claim is made in error again.

KC61

Judgement Day wrote: »

Heritage buildings are too important to be used for such purposes and in terms of tourism Broadstone is a worthwhile asset but not as presently utilised.

What utter nonsense.

The Broadstone station house, which is the principal building, is in use as Bus Eireann's headquarters, which is certainly not a "dirty old bus depot". I would certainly not view this is as a misuse of the building.

The yard and sheds are used as a bus depot, which is to my mind a valid use of the site.

Where else near the city centre would Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann get a site that large to house the bus fleets? It would cost a bomb. To start saying that "The bus garage could be put in any number of locations" is pure nonsense. Where are the bus companies going to find a location of that size sufficient to house both fleets and maintenance facilities close to the city centre?

Son of Stupido

KC61 wrote: »

What utter nonsense.

The Broadstone station house, which is the principal building, is in use as Bus Eireann's headquarters, which is certainly not a "dirty old bus depot". I would certainly not view this is as a misuse of the building.

The yard and sheds are used as a bus depot, which is to my mind a valid use of the site.

Where else near the city centre would Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann get a site that large to house the bus fleets? It would cost a bomb. To start saying that "The bus garage could be put in any number of locations" is pure nonsense. Where are the bus companies going to find a location of that size sufficient to house both fleets and maintenance facilities close to the city centre?

Sorry, but for a collection of architecturally important buildings (of national importance) this is a crass statement.

We can thank the Bus people for the survival of the buildings however, but the use is unsuitable. A new build depot outside the city would be much better, a purpose buitl facility. Dublin Bus are looking at moving their depots outside to greenfield sites anyway. The only thing stopping them are the unions, and the collapse in property prices (look at ringsend depot for instance).

On the Connelly vs Broadstone which-is-closer debate, dosen't matter because both will have a direct tram to O'Connell Street.

In moving services to Broadstone, it would free up pressure on Connolly and Heuston, allow more commuter services to use these stations.

I would alos like to see a service to Cavan/ monaghan reintroduced, which would use the Longford line. Broadstone, with 4 platforms, could easilly accomodate trains to the Northwest & West.

The cutting to the station is wide enugh to accomodate two tracks AND two luas lines, believe it or not! So access to the station would not rule out reopening IMO. Otherwise a cut & cover trench could accomodate the trams underneath.

If there is a will there is a way!

KC61

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Sorry, but for a collection of architecturally important buildings (of national importance) this is a crass statement.

We can thank the Bus people for the survival of the buildings however, but the use is unsuitable. A new build depot outside the city would be much better, a purpose buitl facility. Dublin Bus are looking at moving their depots outside to greenfield sites anyway. The only thing stopping them are the unions, and the collapse in property prices (look at ringsend depot for instance).

So that would mean all Bus Eireann coaches having far longer dead running time to/from Busarus and a greenfield site for refuelling etc., thereby increasing costs???

Similarly Dublin Bus would lose a strategically important large city centre bus depot?

You fail to understand that to operate a bus service you need a mix of both outer city and city centre depots.

The site is currently used for a very practical purpose and frankly I fail to see any point in spending millions of pounds on new depots when a perfectly suitable site is currently used.

As for your rail suggestions - let's get real here. There is barely enough money available to run the existing network let alone new lines to/from Cavan/Monaghan. As it is, the line to/from Navan is up in the air as to when it might get built.

To reiterate - The line out of Broadstone beyond Liffey Junction is two track only and there will not be a multitude of paths available to operate all these additional trains along that route once Pace opens.

Under your proposal, all that would move from Connolly would be the Sligo services - which is hardly freeing up much space in that station. What trains are you proposing to move from Heuston? Galway and Mayo? As I clearly stated above, the route from Broadstone is slower, longer and has far less capacity than that from Heuston.

I would like to see Athlone/Mullingar reopen, perhaps for commuter/stopping services, but re-routing the intercity services is a nonsense.

I'm sorry if I coming across bluntly here, but in the current economic climate this sort of stuff is pure pie in the sky and is of no practical assistance whatsoever, given that Docklands station is to become permanent.

You need to look at the practicalities of what you are suggesting.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

The Broadstone station house, which is the principal building, is in use as Bus Eireann's headquarters,

I didn't know that. I'm glad it is being used for something useful.

Victor

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Sorry, but for a collection of architecturally important buildings (of national importance) this is a crass statement.

We can thank the Bus people for the survival of the buildings however, but the use is unsuitable.

Is the current use of Connolly and Heuston also unsuitable?

Judgement Day

Victor wrote: »

Is the current use of Connolly and Heuston also unsuitable?

The public have access to both Heuston and Connolly whereas Broadstone is off limits. There should/could be space made available at Inchicore Works for Bus Eireann and it would make sense to concentrate all engineering work there.

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

The public have access to both Heuston and Connolly whereas Broadstone is off limits. There should/could be space made available at Inchicore Works for Bus Eireann and it would make sense to concentrate all engineering work there.

There is just two road entrances into and out of Inchicore both of these are very narrow roads leading onto into two traffic bottlenecks; your idea is impractical alone on this basis.

KC61

Judgement Day wrote: »

The public have access to both Heuston and Connolly whereas Broadstone is off limits. There should/could be space made available at Inchicore Works for Bus Eireann and it would make sense to concentrate all engineering work there.

Not entirely true.

The Head Office of Bus Eireann, the old station house, is a publicly accessible building.

The rest of the site, i.e. the bus depot is off limits.

Having the Bus Eireann depot at Broadstone allows quick access to/from Busarus - Inchicore is further away and far more inaccessible.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

The Head Office of Bus Eireann, the old station house, is a publicly accessible building.

Yeah but you'd probably be run if you wandered in the front door.

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Yeah but you'd probably be run if you wandered in the front door.

Well people have the same access to that building as they do to CIE Head Office at Heuston and Irish Rail Head Office at Connolly!!

You can hardly expect to be allowed walk around a working bus depot!

Judgement Day

Hamndegger wrote: »

There is just two road entrances into and out of Inchicore both of these are very narrow roads leading onto into two traffic bottlenecks; your idea is impractical alone on this basis.

I am well aware of the poor access roads to the Works but a new entrance from the Jamestown Road direction would seem possible - where there's a will there's a way! However, given the 'Hangar 6' syndrome which prevails in Ireland nobody is ever going to direct CIE to do anything about anything - certainly not to facilitate a railway museum. Anyway much better to locate the museum in the back of beyond Moyasta where the sea air can will serve as the final solution.

http://www.maplandia.com/ireland/dublin/dublin/inchicore/

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

I am well aware of the poor access roads to the Works but a new entrance from the Jamestown Road direction would seem possible - where there's a will there's a way! However, given the 'Hangar 6' syndrome which prevails in Ireland nobody is ever going to direct CIE to do anything about anything - certainly not to facilitate a railway museum.http://www.maplandia.com/ireland/dublin/dublin/inchicore/

Even if your at best idiotic idea was done (And it will take CPO's a go go and fortunes to develop the site), it still leads to the already strangled Tyrconnell Road; wholly unideal for swift access for buses.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anyway much better to locate the museum in the back of beyond Moyasta where the sea air can will serve as the final solution.

No worse a location than Fenit;)

Judgement Day

I didn't hear about a museum plan for Fenit - do you have any other information about it? Nothing to do with the Jeanie Johnson crowd I hope.

dowlingm

The Hanger 6 situation seems nothing more than an attempt by Ryanair to screw Aer Lingus, the sitting tenant.

Shouldn't we expect to see fewer buses in Dublin City Centre post MetroNorth, LUAS BX/D and Interconnector (especially if the PDs aren't in government sabotaging integrated transport), and if Busaras access (3km away) is the issue would a Portlands site work, maybe using the LUAS right of way to get there?

Judgement Day

dowlingm - I agree that on the face of it the Hangar 6 situation is Mick O'Leary trying to put one over on Aer Lingus, but the 'syndrome' I refer to is the inability of those in authority to cut through the bull**** and take bold decisions. In the case of a Transport/Railway Museum the decision should have been taken at Government level years ago and instructions issued to all concerned - we are the laughing stock of the Northern Hemisphere when it comes to looking after our heritage of any sort. As I said in one of my earlier posts, Broadstone is too important an architecturally gem to remain as a dirty old bus depot.

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

What utter nonsense.

The Broadstone station house, which is the principal building, is in use as Bus Eireann's headquarters, which is certainly not a "dirty old bus depot". I would certainly not view this is as a misuse of the building.

The yard and sheds are used as a bus depot, which is to my mind a valid use of the site.

Where else near the city centre would Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann get a site that large to house the bus fleets? It would cost a bomb. To start saying that "The bus garage could be put in any number of locations" is pure nonsense. Where are the bus companies going to find a location of that size sufficient to house both fleets and maintenance facilities close to the city centre?

Where would the bus fleet have gone if the station had remained open?

You are thinking like CIE. Its funny.

interlocked

Hamndegger wrote: »

No worse a location than Fenit;)

ouch

KC61

DWCommuter wrote: »

Where would the bus fleet have gone if the station had remained open?

You are thinking like CIE. Its funny.

No I am not. I am thinking about the situation as it is, and not fifty years ago.

Things have changed significantly in that period and quite frankly talk now of reopening Broadstone as a museum or as a railway station and relocating two major bus depots and thereby incurring massive unnecessary cost at a time when the economy is in freefall is pure fantasy.

I would have thought that you would at the very least appreciate that.

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

No I am not. I am thinking about the situation as it is, and not fifty years ago.

Things have changed significantly in that period and quite frankly talk now of reopening Broadstone as a museum or as a railway station and relocating two major bus depots and thereby incurring massive unnecessary cost at a time when the economy is in freefall is pure fantasy.

I would have thought that you would at the very least appreciate that.

I was only trying to lighten the mood.:D

But seriously, I do appreciate it. However I know from experience that its a red herring.

If the property boom had continued, then CIE would have sold the Broadstone site along with Liffey Junction. The development of these two sites was part and parcel of the T21 luas plans. CIE would move heaven and earth to placate their cronies and coffers.

Their more recent declaration to reopen Broadstone to heavy rail (in spite of luas plans) is actually related to the development of the site. Wish I could say more.

So moving a bus depot is no big deal once CIE can muster up the dough on a prime city centre site. Of course integrating some sort of transport museum into it wouldnt be appealing because CIE don't care about transport, past or present. Its merely a by product of its property assets, Government subsidy and lucrative salary/pension offerings.

Fenit would probably be better than Moyasta, at least it has a rail link, albeit a derelict one.

About Broadstone, IE originally wanted to reopen it as a permanent replacement for Docklands but the Minister for Transport intervened and told IE they could keep Docklands open instead, to allow the RPA to build on the trackbed.

Judgement Day

How about this for an alternative museum site that would not involve moving Bus Eireann from Broadstone to Inchicore, but instead site the museum in at the latter location.

From my post on the History & Heritage Forum:

Funny how things come full circle. I was trying to think of some more heritage buildings to post here, to get the thread back 'on track', and I thought of CIE's Inchicore Works. Instead of putting the Railway Museum in Broadstone and shifting Bus Eireann to Inchicore, why not put the museum in Inchicore Works? The original Great Southern & Western Railway locomotive running shed, look-out tower and adjacent signal cabin all survive and are very fine Gothic style buildings worthy of preservation in their own right. Like so much other CIE property the former running shed, seen here, is now used for offices and surely room could be found somewhere else on the 72 (!) acre site to accomodate these staff? The location would be ideal for a museum - not operated by CIE - and would be rail connected, close to existing visitor attractions, schools etc. More pics at this link: http://ireland.archiseek.com/buildin...rks/index.html



CIE's Heritage Officer, currently based in the Watch Tower, would have to be relocated too but many would argue that this wouldn't be much loss.

KC61

That's probably the first sensible suggestion on this thread.

Cookie_Monster

Inchicore makes a lot of sense as a location. Loads of spare room. Central.

The only thing is no room for expansion of tracks to store stock. So if IE and museum stock crowding the place up might not work. (assuming the museum ever gets to the stage of having larger quantities of train, trams and buses

Inchicore's a great idea imo, but there'd be an issue of road access, if i remember right you have to in through a housing estate to get into the works, but then again if they managed to get some locos down that road then coaches wouldn't be a problem!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Inchicore's a great idea imo, but there'd be an issue of road access, if i remember right you have to in through a housing estate to get into the works, but then again if they managed to get some locos down that road then coaches wouldn't be a problem!

Yep, they managed to get 201 from Dublin Airport to Inchicore on a low loader.

Judgement Day

It's okay we can all take our favourite locations off the list as that nice old man in Moyasta has just got his planning permission.

COUNCIL ALLOWS RAIL AND ROAD MUSEUM
GORDON DEEGAN
Irish Times 9th March 2010

CLARE COUNTY Council has given the go-ahead for Ireland’s largest rail and road museum at Moyasta, west Clare, in spite of concerns by the National Roads Authority (NRA).

The proposal is part of the West Clare Railway tourist attraction which has seen numbers treble since the return of a 115-year-old Slieve Callan steam engine last August.

The museum proposal is the brainchild of entrepreneur and driving force behind plans to rejuvenate the west Clare railway Jackie Whelan.

Mr Whelan said yesterday he hoped to begin work in the next number of months on the museum. “I am delighted. It will be a huge boost to west Clare.”

The sole objector is Moyasta native David Browne, who has said he will appeal to Bord Pleanála any decision to grant permission to the museum..

Mr Whelan also faces the prospect of the NRA lodging an appeal with Bord Pleanála.

The authority has a high rate of success in appealing council decisions, and in its submission it says the project is located on a section of the N67 national road where the maximum speed limit applies.

“Therefore, it would endanger public safety by reason of traffic hazard and obstruction of road-users due to the movement of the extra traffic generated.

“The proposed development by itself, or by the precedent which the grant of permission for it would set, would adversely affect the use of the national road by traffic.”

Mr Whelan would require permission from the NRA for a rail line to cross the main road linking Kilkee and Kilrush.

He said: “If they allow Luas lines in Dublin, allowing a rail line cross a road in west Clare shouldn’t be a problem.”

Mr Whelan confirmed that he wants to lay down two miles of track over the next two months to Kilkee “and with the good will of the people extend the line eventually to Kilkee and Kilrush”.

In its granting of planning, the council says that no development can take place on the site until such time as permission has been obtained from the Railway Safety Commission.

The planner in the case states that “in terms of visual amenity and rationale for the chosen site, it is considered that on balance, having regard to the nature of the proposal, it would be acceptable”.

The council has granted permission having regard to the zoning of the site, the existing use established on site, the intended use of the proposed building, the policies of the county development plan, and the pattern of development in the area.

The council found that the proposed development would not seriously harm the amenities of the local area or of property in the vicinity.

Cookie_Monster

Judgement Day wrote: »

The authority has a high rate of success in appealing council decisions, and in its submission it says the project is located on a section of the N67 national road where the maximum speed limit applies.

“Therefore, it would endanger public safety by reason of traffic hazard and obstruction of road-users due to the movement of the extra traffic generated.

:rolleyes:

what a stupid reason

maximum speed limit applies

aren't all speed limits maximum limits

DWCommuter

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:

what a stupid reason



aren't all speed limits maximum limits

It refers to the maximum speed limit of 100 km per hour. But yes it does seem like a daft reason when one considers the poor consistancy between local councils and the NRA.

Run_to_da_hills

DWCommuter wrote: »

It refers to the maximum speed limit of 100 km per hour. But yes it does seem like a daft reason when one considers the poor consistancy between local councils and the NRA.

The NRA have no right to talk about road safety until such time as they remove all the deadly cable barriers that they laid down in recent years.

Cookie_Monster

DWCommuter wrote: »

It refers to the maximum speed limit of 100 km per hour.

Its still a maximum isin't it :P

So basically it means traffic on that stretch will be doing about 120-130 then

DWCommuter

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The NRA have no right to talk about road safety until such time as they remove all the deadly cable barriers that they laid down in recent years.

Im not disagreeing with the attitude to road safety and the selective objections that the NRA partake in.