Conspiracy Facts

DeBunny

Are there any conspiracies that have been proven? i.e Government agencies, etc who have been punished by their peers for transgressions.

For example I've heard that, in the 70s the CIA got a slap on the wrist from The US supreme court for bringing heroin in to the ghettos in an attempt to control the black panthers. Sorry, no links.

I'd like to keep this away from 911, moon landing, JFK, etc. Although they might hold water they are still theories. I certainly want to avoid discussion of the occult and other mystical topics.

I know this is, strictly speaking, the opposite of what the forum is about but I think this is the best place to put it in terms of the response it would get.

BigDuffman

Irish Govt. co-operation with IRA back in the day??

Usually I preach links or GTFO but no ars€d today

uprising2

DeBunny wrote: »

Are there any conspiracies that have been proven? i.e Government agencies, etc who have been punished by their peers for transgressions.

For example I've heard that, in the 70s the CIA got a slap on the wrist from The US supreme court for bringing heroin in to the ghettos in an attempt to control the black panthers. Sorry, no links.

I'd like to keep this away from 911, moon landing, JFK, etc. Although they might hold water they are still theories. I certainly want to avoid discussion of the occult and other mystical topics.

I know this is, strictly speaking, the opposite of what the forum is about but I think this is the best place to put it in terms of the response it would get.

Hey your very own skeptics corner, you don't leave much else to be discussed and from your OP it would exclude me.
Best of luck.................


Operation Northwoods

Bay of Tonkin incident

War on Drugs (The Prison Industrial Complex) (1999)


Best Enemies Money Can Buy

AIDS Inc

The Drugging of our Children

Cover up in Oklahoma


Secrets of the CIA

DeBunny

BigDuffman wrote: »

Irish Govt. co-operation with IRA back in the day??

Usually I preach links or GTFO but no ars€d today

Yeah good one, sure it wasn't even that long ago.

I'd like to get stuff on a larger scale though.

DeBunny

uprising2 wrote: »

Hey your very own skeptics corner, you don't leave much else to be discussed and from your OP it would exclude me.
Best of luck.................

At least I'm being a genuine skeptic and not just dismissing things off hand. If the mods feel this thread belongs else where, fair enough.

I am interested in the occult etc, but I'd like to keep that discussion for another thread.

Ohh one conspiracy fact:
Operation Northwoods
and
Bay of Tonkin incident

Nice one. Can you provide links to newspaper articles etc, that show they were accepted as conspiracies by the general population and that someone was held accountable?

Darlughda

Well I suppose the whole Watergate scandal that brought down Nixon in the early 1970's would be a conspiracy that was proven true.

Lab_Mouse

DeBunny wrote: »

At least I'm being a genuine skeptic

Sorry? anyone in mind.Its not the skeptics fault that good evidence isnt/cant/wont be provided.EDIT:for some of the theories

Lab_Mouse

Darlughda wrote: »

Well I suppose the whole Watergate scandal that brought down Nixon in the early 1970's would be a conspiracy that was proven true.

But was it theory beforehand or did it only come out in the open after the investigative journalists dug deeper?(not up to scratch on it)

Brown Bomber

Here is one that published today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8518348.stm

The French military were secretly testing the effects of nuclear weapons on their own soliders.

Brown Bomber

WMD in Iraq would be the obvious one of recent years. And the Paul McCartney is dead will probably be true sooner rather than later

MKULTRA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

Iran-Contra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Contra

.CIA Coups worldwide, but primarily in Latin America

USS Liberty attack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

You should read this, it is sick.
Tuskegee syphilis experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

Darlughda

Yeah Lab mouse- far as I can remember from reading 'All the presidents men' the conspiracy was the cover up of the break in to the democratic national committee headquarters which was then exposed by the journalists. I better go googling cos I'm shaky on the details too.

Lab_Mouse

In fairness I think their has been conspiracies since the first humans formed groups.Just that nowadays in modern history the conspiracies can literally be global.Also with the greater freedoms of the joe soaps(us),technology and a growing sense of whtas right and wrong will see a lot more coming under scrutiny and found out

Lab_Mouse

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And the Paul McCartney is dead will probably be true sooner rather than later

:DI agree with you there alright!!

mysterious

Brown Bomber wrote: »

WMD in Iraq would be the obvious one of recent years. And the Paul McCartney is dead will probably be true sooner rather than later

MKULTRA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

Iran-Contra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Contra

.CIA Coups worldwide, but primarily in Latin America

USS Liberty attack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

You should read this, it is sick.
Tuskegee syphilis experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

So you know Paul is dead?;)

uprising2

DeBunny wrote: »

Nice one. Can you provide links to newspaper articles etc, that show they were accepted as conspiracies by the general population and that someone was held accountable?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOEH-xAMHRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXmxfCvO7lA

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/essay.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4492190.stm

Truthrevolution

Conspiracy theories barely existed in the past, the rise of alternative media over the last 40 or more years has shown people that all is not what it seems in this crazy world we live in.In the past people just believed whatever they heard on the radio or read in the papers, what else could they do.Its why Hitler was able to rise to power, its why millions of Russians thought communism was going to be a utopian society, its how Great Britain ruled the roost in the medievel times.

squod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervtEdYckYc

Since the local news footage of the ATF burning Wako to the ground got lost from sacred cow (http://www.sacredcowproductions.com/). We'll have to take into account eyewitness reports.

Truthrevolution

The inevitable global financial crash was once a conspiracy theory being peddled by the likes of Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams.Remember our great leader Bertie Ahern saying that these conspiracy theorists would be better off just commiting suicide! Should have listened to the economists Bertie!

K-9

Alot of Northern Ireland stuff, though it could be argued how high it went up.

Shoot to kill and anything John Stalker related.

Shows you how high not wanting to know the full facts goes.

studiorat

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Conspiracy theories barely existed in the past, the rise of alternative media over the last 40 or more years has shown people that all is not what it seems in this crazy world we live in.In the past people just believed whatever they heard on the radio or read in the papers, what else could they do.Its why Hitler was able to rise to power, its why millions of Russians thought communism was going to be a utopian society, its how Great Britain ruled the roost in the medievel times.

Hitler used Conspiracy Theories to rise to power'

studiorat

Truthrevolution wrote: »

The inevitable global financial crash was once a conspiracy theory being peddled by the likes of Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams.Remember our great leader Bertie Ahern saying that these conspiracy theorists would be better off just commiting suicide! Should have listened to the economists Bertie!

Where did he say that?

Torakx

If we are talking facts then i would not count ANY newspaper article in this thread.
Or any news reports or government inquery boards/comitees.
There is no such thing as fact online,as anything i or anyone posts can be questioned.
I might have an uploaded photo copy for example of research results a government or comittee did,which would be considered fact after its publishing,but those facts depend totally on the reliability of the source.
I dont accept any large or powerfull/influencial groups as a reliable source of information.
If i did i would probably be dead now from too much medication.
So if a skeptic relies on the word "official" and the conspiracy theorist relies on the word "conspiracy" to decide on wether its a reliable source we all should know we are being played for a fool much like political voting on one side or the other.

I dont like relying on facts except what i know through my own experience and rational/logical thought.
I thinks its alot more important to be able to see the evidence.Just because someone in power hasnt been on the controlled media getting arrested and dragged in chains to a cell doesnt mean they are innocent of smoking weed or any other crime they have not been punished for let alone wars and fearmongering.
This thread will most likely turn into a competition to see who can discredit whos sources.The obvious evidence while even circumstancial is not so misleading when there is enough of it to add credence to a theory.
I hate trying to discuss things and have to worry about symantics like this but it seems to need saying lol.

mysterious

studiorat wrote: »

Hitler used Conspiracy Theories to rise to power'

No Hitler was financed to power.

Everything came after that, not constrictive to what you said above.:rolleyes: There is literally hundreds of reasons as to how Hitler rosed to power. But thats another topic.

Truthrevolution

studiorat wrote: »

Hitler used Conspiracy Theories to rise to power'

No, Hitler used propaganda

Truthrevolution

studiorat wrote: »

Where did he say that?

Here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA

mysterious

Truthrevolution wrote: »

No, Hitler used propaganda

And flouride:D

Which is in our tap water.:pac:

DeBunny

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

Sorry? anyone in mind.Its not the skeptics fault that good evidence isnt/cant/wont be provided.EDIT:for some of the theories

Wow there. I only said it because CTists often complain that skeptics are just being dismisive rather than skeptical in the truest sense of the word

DeBunny

Torakx wrote: »

If we are talking facts then i would not count ANY newspaper article in this thread.
Or any news reports or government inquery boards/comitees.
There is no such thing as fact online,as anything i or anyone posts can be questioned.
I might have an uploaded photo copy for example of research results a government or comittee did,which would be considered fact after its publishing,but those facts depend totally on the reliability of the source.
I dont accept any large or powerfull/influencial groups as a reliable source of information.
If i did i would probably be dead now from too much medication.
So if a skeptic relies on the word "official" and the conspiracy theorist relies on the word "conspiracy" to decide on wether its a reliable source we all should know we are being played for a fool much like political voting on one side or the other.

I dont like relying on facts except what i know through my own experience and rational/logical thought.
I thinks its alot more important to be able to see the evidence.Just because someone in power hasnt been on the controlled media getting arrested and dragged in chains to a cell doesnt mean they are innocent of smoking weed or any other crime they have not been punished for let alone wars and fearmongering.
This thread will most likely turn into a competition to see who can discredit whos sources.The obvious evidence while even circumstancial is not so misleading when there is enough of it to add credence to a theory.
I hate trying to discuss things and have to worry about symantics like this but it seems to need saying lol.

This is what I mean by chasing your tail. You say you rely on your own logic and ration yet you automatically dismiss articles from people who's job it is to be logical and rational. Would you dismiss a newspaper article if it was confirming a CT? Honestly?
Whether you're conscious of it or not you rely on large organisations for information every day of your life. I mean where are you even coming from when you say that you might be dead if you relied on large influential groups?
I think you need to develop your logic.

(Not to mention your syntax:D)

DeBunny

K-9 wrote: »

Alot of Northern Ireland stuff, though it could be argued how high it went up.

Shoot to kill and anything John Stalker related.

Shows you how high not wanting to know the full facts goes.

Yeah despite what I said about looking for CFs (conspiracy facts, any one have a better term?) on a larger scale I'd actually be interested in what's going on in our own country.
I know MI5 and MI6 have been accused, by people you could call their peers, of colluding with loyalist paramilitarys.
When it comes to propaganda and manipulation I'm sure the British learned a lot from ''the troubles''.

Torakx

DeBunny wrote: »

This is what I mean by chasing your tail. You say you rely on your own logic and ration yet you automatically dismiss articles from people who's job it is to be logical and rational. Would you dismiss a newspaper article if it was confirming a CT? Honestly?
Whether you're conscious of it or not you rely on large organisations for information every day of your life. I mean where are you even coming from when you say that you might be dead if you relied on large influential groups?
I think you need to develop your logic.

(Not to mention your syntax:D)

I was trying to explain to you how futile it is to only accept so called facts when these facts are based on the reliability of the media and governments...
And i went down that road because i got the feeling from the start of the thread there is going to be an issue with people posting heavy circumstantial evidence but supposedly debunked because some government didnt put there stamp on it.
While i readily indulge in any new information i didnt say i dont use these mainstream sources once in a while for gathering news.I believe the mainstream media is useful to people when they can read between the lines.I dont see that happening here when using "official" government polls or research results etc.
I like listening to Obama speeches because he is saying things/or not in the background that helps me see what he is up to the odd time.

PS. If i saw a mainstream news article confirming a conspiracy theory i would ofc not trust it ^^ only a fool accepts what he is told without researching it a bit.Plus there are alot of tactics to social engineering that i probably havent even imagined up yet

K-9

DeBunny wrote: »

Yeah despite what I said about looking for CFs (conspiracy facts, any one have a better term?) on a larger scale I'd actually be interested in what's going on in our own country.
I know MI5 and MI6 have been accused, by people you could call their peers, of colluding with loyalist paramilitarys.
When it comes to propaganda and manipulation I'm sure the British learned a lot from ''the troubles''.

They did and the IRA and SF learned a lot too!

DeBunny

Torakx wrote: »

I was trying to explain to you how futile it is to only accept so called facts when these facts are based on the reliability of the media and governments...
And i went down that road because i got the feeling from the start of the thread there is going to be an issue with people posting heavy circumstantial evidence but supposedly debunked because some government didnt put there stamp on it.
While i readily indulge in any new information i didnt say i dont use these mainstream sources once in a while for gathering news.I believe the mainstream media is useful to people when they can read between the lines.I dont see that happening here when using "official" government polls or research results etc.
I like listening to Obama speeches because he is saying things/or not in the background that helps me see what he is up to the odd time.

PS. If i saw a mainstream news article confirming a conspiracy theory i would ofc not trust it ^^ only a fool accepts what he is told without researching it a bit.Plus there are alot of tactics to social engineering that i probably havent even imagined up yet

Yeah you said it. :rolleyes:

Look, I'm not a grammar/ punctuation Nazi or anything, I don't even use it properly my self, but it's kinda hard to decipher what your trying to say. No offense.

DeBunny

K-9 wrote: »

They did and the IRA and SF learned a lot too!

In fairness to SF, the British government are still killing innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The republican paramilitaries still using violence can't legitimately can themselves IRA.

Torakx

apologies! instead of the word "up" i should maybe have used "into existence"
If there are any other grammar mistakes i can try explain what i ment them to indicate to you.
If your being sarcy it only half went over my head because i am not sure if you are lol
Funny stuff but lets be serious for a bit.
What exactly could i post here as evidence to show you a CT that you would believe is possibly true?

I have alot of sources for info some of them i find reliable some of them not.But i find all together they paint a clear enough picture that i can distinguish.
But until i can see what you would accept i have no bases for judging what CT to post in your thread.So i would appreciate if you could expand on that for me please.

K-9

DeBunny wrote: »

In fairness to SF, the British government are still killing innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The republican paramilitaries still using violence can't legitimately can themselves IRA.

Indeed, just SF have borrowed a few tricks from the British or maybe Catholic Church?

Not immune to the odd child sex abuse cover up to save face?

DeBunny

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, just SF have borrowed a few tricks from the British or maybe Catholic Church?

Not immune to the odd child sex abuse cover up to save face?

What the hell! Let's not even go there. That's not what I opened this thread for.

Are you serious or is this a sh1tty troll attempt?

Don't answer that btw.


Any way, MI5, conspiracies, etc.

uprising2

Hey Debunny any feedback on Operation Northwoods of Gulf of Tonkin, do you accept these as conspiracy facts?

uprising2

Didn't MI5 let the Omagh bombing happen!, theres another conspiracy fact.

EDIT:
Referring to the Omagh bomb investigation, which revealed that MI5 had not shared intelligence on dissidents with the RUC, he said: "There is clearly the need, as Omagh showed, to ensure that intelligence is joined up. I would expect the justice minister to be informed in a general sense but on specific security details.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/29/northern-ireland-omagh-mi5-intelligence

http://news.scotsman.com/omaghbombing/MI5-failed-to-pass-on.2753898.jp

British double-agent was in Real IRA's Omagh bomb team
http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_mi5terror_4.html

DeBunny

Torakx wrote: »

What exactly could i post here as evidence to show you a CT that you would believe is possibly true?

I have alot of sources for info some of them i find reliable some of them not.But i find all together they paint a clear enough picture that i can distinguish.
But until i can see what you would accept i have no bases for judging what CT to post in your thread.So i would appreciate if you could expand on that for me please.

I'm not idealistically opposed to the idea of conspiracies happening. They happen all the time.
I'd like to have a look at CTs that are are not theories any more but have been accepted as fact by the mass media, judicial system or general population.

For now I'd like to focus on MI5's or MI6's involvement in NI.

DeBunny

uprising2 wrote: »

Hey Debunny any feedback on Operation Northwoods of Gulf of Tonkin, do you accept these as conspiracy facts?

Yeah operation Northwoods is interesting. Reminds me of a plan by the FBI to plant a bomb in New York and blame it on zee Germans as an excuse to enter WWII. The plans for this were leaked or declassified and it was accepted as fact. Sorry no links. saw it on a documentary on RTE 2.

With the Bay of Tonkin incident I would prefer links from non CT sites, but I checked it out else where and the NSA themselves said there was no Vietnamese navy in the area at the time. A good example of a conspiracy accepted as fact from the conspirators peers.

They do like their wars. But sure how else is an empire supposed to expand?

I should, possibly, have clarified in my OP that I accept that conspiracies happen.
I think for a lot of skeptics conspiracy is the new c word.
On the other hand CTers can tend to be a tad fanatical and have a tendency to exaggerate. I'm generalizing here of course.

Mahatma coat

Want the Lusitania Deliberatley sent into harms way carring a Fvckload of Munitions, so as to draw the Americans into WW1

Tonkin, obviously and the USS Liberty attempted sinking.

CIA's War on Drugs beng about them gaining larger market share

and of course

Where are the WMD's



I'm watchin the Iran situation at the moment, some whopers being told there.

Oil being traded in Euros as the reason for invasion

Nick_oliveri

I'm surprised at the whole Tonkin incident. Its even more surprising to see history repeat itself and "leaders" getting away with such distorted propaganda again... What was it, a Quadruple whammy - "Yellow cake Uranium from Africa", "mobile Chemical labs", "45 minute mushroom cloud" and "Iraq/Al Qaeda".

And how the hell does it surprise anyone that conspiracy theories are so rampant? Didn't the 9/11 ones escalate/peak during this time?

Pittens

Prior to the WMD there was an obvious attempt to link the 9/11 perps with Iraq, in particular a widely reported meeting between Mohammed Atta and a representative of the Iraqi government in Prague.

the FBI said that Atta was in America at the time, CC records etc. Parts of the CIA and internal clandestine forces in the US were releasing this link for months afterwards though, to their press sources.