More Toyota deaths reported

unkel

Article

Even as Federal officials received a flood of new complaints on deaths allegedly caused by a sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles, the Japanese auto maker said it had repaired about 500,000 of the 2.3 million vehicles recalled.

With the new reported deaths, the total number of alleged fatalities went up to 34 since 2000, according to government data.

The company recalled 2.3mn vehicles over fears of a sticky gas pedal, a senior executive said. Toyota is also considering offering significantly longer warranties on its vehicles to win back consumer confidence, according to dealers who have discussed the matter with the company.

The company has estimated the sales problems will cost it 100,000 unit sales and around $2 billion.
Dealers have extended service hours well into the night and on weekends to repair vehicles as quickly as possible.

Over the weekend, Toyota tried to put to rest concerns that the electronics in its vehicles could cause certain Toyota and Lexus models to accelerate without the driver hitting the gas.

Last week, Toyota announced a global recall involving more than 400,000 Priuses and other hybrid cars with possible braking problems. On the same day, the Transportation Department said it was reviewing driver complaints about steering difficulties in the 2009-10 Toyota Corolla.

On Saturday, Toyota announced a voluntary safety recall to inspect the front drive shaft on some 2010 Tacoma four-wheel-drive trucks. Officials said the front shaft in about 8,000 vehicles might include a component that has cracks created during the manufacturing process, which could lead to separation of the drive shaft at the joint portion.

These are deaths in the US alone - afaik there is no data available for other countries

dizzydiesel

Toyota reliability wouldn't be the reason why I wouldn't buy Toyota.
They are just boring.

mike65

The more you look the more you see.

dizzydiesel

Can't help but think the Americans are playing political games trying to tarnish Toyotas name. They will do anything to boost sales of their American alternate GM.

Cookie_Monster

GM - Government Motors

Of course they're trying to bad mouth Toyota, the US gov have to big a stake in the car makers not to be pushing the product and lambasting the competition.

neilthefunkeone

So are they just going back on their data and seeing if any road deaths had a toyota involved and putting it down to the accelator fault..

Maybe it was the fat american trying to eat 4 tacos while merging on a highway..

EPM

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

Maybe it was the fat american trying to eat 4 tacos while merging on a highway..

FFS or maybe it was actually a design fault that caused people to die in one of the most brutal ways:rolleyes:

The coverage has been quite heavy on this, well above the normal quota. GM probably will make a few bucks no doubt

Cookie_Monster

EPM wrote: »

FFS or maybe it was actually a design fault that caused people to die in one of the most brutal ways:rolleyes:

The coverage has been quite heavy on this, well above the normal quota. GM probably will make a few bucks no doubt

ok even if we accept they were all due to accelarator faults, how difficult is it to take the car out of gear, press brakes, put on handbrake or turn the engine off before you have any issue.

EPM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

ok even if we accept they were all due to accelarator faults, how difficult is it to take the car out of gear, press brakes, put on handbrake or turn the engine off before you have any issue.

I know what you mean. That thought struck me too...although handbrake might do more damage than good;)

dizzydiesel

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

ok even if we accept they were all due to accelarator faults, how difficult is it to take the car out of gear, press brakes, put on handbrake or turn the engine off before you have any issue.

I'd like to think this was easy too, but the average driver might start to panic....turn off the engine, loose power steering and power to the brakes.
Some cars don't have the hand lever handbrakes either....and trying to control a "foot-controled" handbrake could be tricky.

I guess it depends on where you are driving and how fast you are going.

Leonard Hofstadter

While I despise Toyota because of the fact that most cars they produce are just so charisma free and despite perception are not a lot more reliable than most other makes, in the US even before the scandal broke out Ford were outperforming them in reliability with the Fusion, I would go along with what others have said and the Americans are no doubt over-exaggerating the situation now for their own automotive gain.

While we bemoan Toyotas here, and rightly so, in the US the stuff from GM, Ford(before Alan Mullally with his One Ford idea) and Chrysler made cars considerably worse(and I don't just mean reliability) than even Toyota did! GM and Ford used to sell cars completely different to what was sold in Europe, anyone been in a Chevrolet Tahoe or a Ford Crown Victoria for example?

If you have been in one(like I have) then you'll know what I'm talking about.

I do think that the Toyota story, while obviously embarassing for them and makes a mockery of a company that is supposed to make "The Best Built Cars in the World", is being aloud to grow far too many legs in the US, a lot of it is no doubt because Toyotas are obviously not American(even though most USDM Toyotas are built there) and the American car makers and no doubt trying to exploit Toyota's difficulties for their own gain, a dangerous strategy which could backfire on them badly in the long run, especially if the Americans go back to their old habits(while placing more emphasis on V8s say is an old habit I'd like to see come back, others such as woefully built interiors and poor reliability are ones that should be bansihed forever).

unkel

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

GM - Government Motors

ianobrien

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how difficult is it to take the car out of gear, press brakes, put on handbrake or turn the engine off before you have any issue.

Don't forget that most Yank cars are autos, and to get the auto into neutral, you have to go through reverse. That's why it's kinda hard to get the auto into neutral. Granted turning the motor off is probably the only solution that would work. Light application of the brakes would only result in cooked brakes

jackofalltrades

ianobrien wrote:

Don't forget that most Yank cars are autos, and to get the auto into neutral, you have to go through reverse

Every auto that I've ever driven has always had a P-R-N-D gear lever layout, so putting it into neutral is just a matter of sliding the sitck forward one notch.

FarmerGreen

I had an Audi auto with a faulty fuel pump.
Once or twice a week the engine would die. Its no great drama coming to a stop with no power steering and brake vacuum.
Steering gets a bit heavy at the end though.

JHMEG

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Every auto that I've ever driven has always had a P-R-N-D gear lever layout, so putting it into neutral is just a matter of sliding the sitck forward one notch.

Park to Drive requires going through Reverse. Does anyone use neutral on an auto?

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote: »

Park to Drive requires going through Reverse. Does anyone use neutral on an auto?

Yes if they are tryign to stop the car in an emergency while not going through Reverse.:) Why would you go through Neural and reverse just to get to Park in these situation?

Matt Simis

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

ok even if we accept they were all due to accelarator faults, how difficult is it to take the car out of gear, press brakes, put on handbrake or turn the engine off before you have any issue.

If you read details of the specific cases, you will find many people did put the cars in Neutral and it didnt make any difference.
Also, "put on handbrake"? At 65mph and climbing fast, say 85mph!? At best useless, at worst even more dangerous.
"Turn off engine", loose power steering, headlights and power assist brakes, lock steering wheel if you remove the key accidentially doing that.
Terrible ideas.

Of course they're trying to bad mouth Toyota, the US gov have to big a stake in the car makers not to be pushing the product and lambasting the competition.

Oh please.
I dont think this is some goverment consipiracy. If a pillar of the sector like Toyota has it image and car sales hurt so dramatically, it damages consumer confidence (and investor confidence) in the entire industry. It doesnt in anyway "boost" GM sales. Even at the most basic level, you could just as easily make the argument that VAG or KIA or Mazda will gain sales and not GM at all.
There is also the matter that Toyota have tens of thousands of American employees (at one point more than US car makers).

The notion that this is a smear campaign by the US Government is bred from either fanboyism or the embarassing anti-American'ism that floats about here. Its moronic.

JHMEG

On the radio today they talked about the Tylenol problems of 1982, saying that the makers of Tylenol (Johnson & Johnson) put their hands up and did a massive recall, putting customers' safety before profit.

Otoh, Ford had blowouts due to not inflating tyres properly in the factory and blamed Firestone, the tyre maker (who fudged their defence).

Tylenol's sales went up, Ford's went down.

I notice the quoted article in the original post uses the word "allegedly", which is not in the thread title (tut, tut). The US govt alleges. Detroit and the US administration has always tried wherever they can to undermine what they refer to as "imports". This is despite the fact that most "imports" are made in the USA and most "domestic" cars are made in Mexico.

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

I notice the quoted article in the original post uses the word "allegedly", which is not in the thread title (tut, tut).

You'll find that the title of this thread is exactly the same as the title of the article. Tut, tut right back at ya

Edit: in case you're tut, tutting the original article and not the original post, "allegedly" is never part of a thread title or article title

Drake66

Matt Simis wrote: »

If you read details of the specific cases, you will find many people did put the cars in Neutral and it didnt make any difference.
Also, "put on handbrake"? At 65mph and climbing fast, say 85mph!? At best useless, at worst even more dangerous.
"Turn off engine", loose power steering, headlights and power assist brakes, lock steering wheel if you remove the key accidentially doing that.
Terrible ideas.

hmmm. Better stick to the offical advise actually.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/xxxxx-153289.aspx
What if you experience a sticking accelerator pedal while driving?
Each circumstance may vary, and drivers must use their best judgment, but Toyota recommends taking the following actions:
• If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.
• Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.
• If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.
o If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.
o If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine. Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Edit: in case you're tut, tutting the original article and not the original post, "allegedly" is never part of a thread title or article title

Headlines like that along with the US govt stance are the reason the conspiracy theories are emerging.

On a side note. My father had a Fiesta for a few months years (15) ago and it had a sticky accelerator pedal. You needed to put your foot under it and pull it up. Never did him any harm. No drama about pressing the brake with two feet and putting the gearbox in neutral etc etc.

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

On a side note. My father had a Fiesta for a few months years (15) ago and it had a sticky accelerator pedal. You needed to put your foot under it and pull it up. Never did him any harm. No drama about pressing the brake with two feet and putting the gearbox in neutral etc etc.

Great it never did him any harm. I wouldn't be too worried either about a sticky accelerator problem tbh. I reckon I would be ok just following my instincts.

But there's the whole essence of a recall, isn't there? Say 10 million cars have a design flaw / known problem / potential catastrophic failure and this results in say 10 deaths means all 10 million cars have to be recalled and altered.

BTW I read somewhere today that the faulty part causing the sticky accelerator pedal is a US manufactured part. Can't remember where I read it though

ianobrien

I think (and it's a serious I think) that most Toyotas are FBW throttle (Fly by Wire), meaning that the accellerator is not physically linked to the throttle body. There is a potentiometer in the accellerator pedal that measures the angle of the pedal and converts this into an electrical signal. This electrical signal travells to the throttle body via the wiring loom & ECU to a stepper motor. This stepper motor in the throttle body then opens the throttle by a pre-determined amount (what the potentiometer in the accellerator pedal told the ECU). These cars don't have a throttle cable.

It looks like the accellerator pedal potentiometer is givin false readings and the throttle body is opening as a result.

If you're wondering why they went this way, and didn't stick with the old fashioned accellerator cable, modern fuel injection needs a throttle potentiometer for fueling anyway, ease of manufacture (no cable to route and protect from heat) and easier to convert from RHD to LHD.

Raiser

What's that they say? As long as a car can drive, stop and turn?

- Still 1 out of 3 aint bad; Or are steering defects in Toyotas next months news?

The Toyota Way and all the other Corporate Buzz Words for streamlining processes and all that hot air now seem to be exposed as being tatty vehicles for dim Yob Management to apply labels to their cheap, nasty and now lethal penny-pinching.

Leonard Hofstadter

ianobrien wrote: »

I think (and it's a serious I think) that most Toyotas are FBW throttle (Fly by Wire), meaning that the accellerator is not physically linked to the throttle body.

All modern cars have drive by wire, I hate all this needless complication, is it any wonder why modern cars give so much trouble, what was wrong with the accelerator being directly connected to the throttle like it was in the olden days?

The Prius is being recalled because of the "feel" through the brakes, the Prius doesn't have a mechanical link between the brake pedal and the brakes either, it's all brake by wire these days FFS:rolleyes:!

Absurdum

I've been trying to search for information on this whole Toyota thing, and all I can find is cases relating to the US. Anyone know of any crashes or deaths outside there??

JHMEG

captainspeed wrote: »

All modern cars have drive by wire,

No they don't. Some still even have cable clutches instead of hydraulic.

captainspeed wrote: »

The Prius is being recalled because of the "feel" through the brakes, the Prius doesn't have a mechanical link between the brake pedal and the brakes either, it's all brake by wire these days FFS:rolleyes:!

The brakes are normal hydraulic brakes. The energy capture when decellerating makes the brakes feel "odd" to some people. My own car does it.

Cookie_Monster

Matt Simis wrote: »

If you read details of the specific cases, you will find many people did put the cars in Neutral and it didnt make any difference.
Also, "put on handbrake"? At 65mph and climbing fast, say 85mph!? At best useless, at worst even more dangerous.
"Turn off engine", loose power steering, headlights and power assist brakes, lock steering wheel if you remove the key accidentially doing that.
Terrible ideas.

I mentioned each of them as an option, handbrake would obviously be more prudent at lower speeds, and anyway if it stops you from crashing and being killed surely its a good option regardless if it dangerous or not.

As for turning off the engine you do not loose brake power immediately (well in any car I've ever driven anyway) and it a simple step to turn ignition back on without starting engine.

How many times have you accidentally removed the key while turning the car off? Don't be so stupid.

And finally brakes and steering still work without power assist :rolleyes:

Matt Simis wrote: »

Oh please.
I dont think this is some goverment consipiracy. If a pillar of the sector like Toyota has it image and car sales hurt so dramatically, it damages consumer confidence (and investor confidence) in the entire industry. It doesnt in anyway "boost" GM sales. Even at the most basic level, you could just as easily make the argument that VAG or KIA or Mazda will gain sales and not GM at all.
There is also the matter that Toyota have tens of thousands of American employees (at one point more than US car makers).

The notion that this is a smear campaign by the US Government is bred from either fanboyism or the embarassing anti-American'ism that floats about here. Its moronic.

No its not a conspiracy but if you think the US, or any other, government wouldn't take advantage of something like this to some extent I think you're being a bit naive.

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

There is also the matter that Toyota have tens of thousands of American employees (at one point more than US car makers).

Matt there is and always has been a bias against the "imports" in the US. It all started with the "Chicken tax" when a tax 25% was put on imported vehicles in the 60s, and continues to this day. It's not surprising really, as it's out of patriotism, tho such protectionism inevitably leads to a reduction in quality of domestic produce. Our own experiences show that (eg Solas).

Matt Simis wrote: »

The notion that this is a smear campaign by the US Government is bred from either fanboyism or the embarassing anti-American'ism that floats about here. Its moronic.

I was recently talking to an American friend (who lives there full-time) and there is an air of "wtf?" over there about this. People in America are starting to wonder if the "imports" are being targetted (again) from what he tells me.