comic book medium

spiderdad

i been thinking about this for a while and thought i put this out there to see what people thought.why is it that the average person(most people) who loves superhero movies shun the idea of actually reading a comic book featuring the same character.i have experienced this first hand(being a collector)have offered to loan books to people.chris nolan more or less took huge chunks of jeph loeb/tim sales book the long halloween and used it for batman begins,likewise for other movies/books.but when i suggest they read these books,they look at me like i have ten heads(i only have 3).so i ask whats wrong with medium of graphic novel/comic books?

ztoical

I'm sure alot of people will claim it's the whole "comics are for kids notion" but I feel just because someone enjoyed something in one forum doesn't mean they will in another. I know alot of people who enjoy going to the cinema to escape and relax for 2 odd hours and they don't have any interest in taking about the film after in depth or learning more about it or the subject matter. Have gone to plenty of films with friends that were based on books and while I like to read the book before seeing the film, the friends have no interest.

On the same token there are some comics/books/plays I have no interest in seeing made into films/television shows. I like them in the forum they are and while don't mind them being made into a film I dislike this notion of you read comics therefor you are going to like this film based on a comic. Comics, books, plays, films, are all different media and have different qualities to them.

Films can be a good intro to comics for some as they do simplfy the story down alot and for some of the big on going titles they can be a good starter base to jump off from but alot just want to enjoy a night out at the cinema. Look at the lord of the rings films....yes lots of people read the book after seeing the films but as a % of how many people actually saw the film it wasn't that high a number. Alot of people would feel they've seen the film so they don't have to read the book.

Fysh

There's nothing wrong or right with any given medium - people just have preferences, either based on rational analysis of their own experience or on hearsay and assumption.

I'm not really sure where this conversation is going to go to be honest, because the people who apparently denigrated the medium aren't here to explain their reasoning, meaning that those of us who are here are likely to just end up talking about how we like comics and think that they are a viable medium for artistic expression.

Ridley

ztoical wrote: »

I'm sure alot of people will claim it's the whole "comics are for kids notion" but I feel just because someone enjoyed something in one forum doesn't mean they will in another.

Pretty much my opinion. I do think the "comics are for kids" stigma does play into it somewhat but there's plenty of comic readers who will look at you strange if you wave a novel in front of them. Luckily I have no life therefore enjoy films, TV, comics, books, video games...

Not radio though. Because that would be stupid.

][cEMAN**

spiderdad wrote: »

i been thinking about this for a while and thought i put this out there to see what people thought.why is it that the average person(most people) who loves superhero movies shun the idea of actually reading a comic book featuring the same character.

Same people usually don't even crack open a book. They're movie goers because they want a quick fix in 2-3hrs or less.

royalt

That's the price of progress. it's the same as kids not reading books and browsing the net all day and night. People became too lazy...

John 187

Too lazy? How long does it take to read a single issue? Could be 10 mins or less in some cases. I mean lets not got snotty about this.

livingtargets

Someone who goes to see a batman film,or whatever,expects an easy to follow,well produced adventure blockbuster-maybe with a piece of Hollywood eyecandy thrown in for good measure-for less than ten quid.

Meanwhile,all the comic companies stand scratching their heads,wondering why those people don`t want to buy their comic series,which is the same story stretched shamelessly into dozens of €4-a-pop 20 page(every second page an ad)pamphlets so as to have enough pages of "story" to fill a tradepaperback a few months down the line.There`s the nail in the coffin,even before we get to things like the lifeless factory-line art and needlessly complicated backstories.

Comics as they`re known to the "superhero publishers" in the States,were created as a cheap alternative for kids who didn`t always have the pocket money to spend on going to see a film.Today the role is reversed.And why would people spend more money on a poor excuse for blockbuster storytelling when they can go to see the real thing?

][cEMAN**

And films made from books that are more expensive than going to see the film, but which in many cases are accepted as better than the film, are a poor excuse for blockbuster storytelling?

The stories in long running comics are usually better written than the made for silver screen 2-3hr screenplays.

Watchmen is one of the most talked about graphic novel to film adaptations, and the only people I know who've seen it and either read it first, or went out and bought it to read afterwards (and the graphic novel is far superior in storytelling) are people who already read books because they like reading.

Take away the superhero side of things and look at some of the big adaptations in the last few years. V for Vendetta, Sin City, etc. How many people who have already read these said that the film versions were better?

People just like coming up with excuses not to read. All you have to do is look at Cliff Notes. Lets not read a book and think for ourselves, lets get the TV dinner version crammed into a handbook that tells us what to think, and gives us all the answers.

Gambler

I think some people just don't like to read, be it books or comics and prefer the format of a movie. That's not my cup of tea but I do get it..

I do have to say that there's a part of me that agrees with livingtargets, I've fairly given up on individual comics, waiting instead for the collected editions to come out and even then there's a part of me that looks at the price for a small book and has to remind myself that printing costs for a comic are way higher than those for a book. Comics are not something that an adult with little to no disposable income can afford to get into and I can't see kids today being willing to spend that much on a comic when they can get "more for their money" (to their mind) out of an afternoon in the cinema or doing something else with their pocket money.

Fysh

Gambler wrote: »

I think some people just don't like to read, be it books or comics and prefer the format of a movie. That's not my cup of tea but I do get it...

The thing is different formats have different strengths and weaknesses, and with the superhero film the general approach has been visually bombastic, SFX/action-heavy and not particularly complex. Where the films have involved continuity, it's generally been of the form that sequels acknowledge the existence of prior films.

There's a certain simplicity to that which a lot of serialised comics lack, and I think their serial nature is part of what puts some people off.

But there is also a truth to the notion that enjoying a film doesn't have to involve any interest in the same material as a comic - Waltz With Bashir is on example of a film I really enjoyed which was subsequently adapted into a frankly woeful comic, and if someone were to read the comic and then say they didn't want to see the film I would have to understand their perspective.

Gambler wrote: »

I do have to say that there's a part of me that agrees with livingtargets, I've fairly given up on individual comics, waiting instead for the collected editions to come out and even then there's a part of me that looks at the price for a small book and has to remind myself that printing costs for a comic are way higher than those for a book. Comics are not something that an adult with little to no disposable income can afford to get into and I can't see kids today being willing to spend that much on a comic when they can get "more for their money" (to their mind) out of an afternoon in the cinema or doing something else with their pocket money.

The problem is that there's a difference between saying "Read DKR or Red Son, it's good" and "Read Batman, it's good". When I got into comics as a kid I read mostly humour comics that were pretty standalone, but even the ones that were a series worked as standalone, continuity-free volumes featuring recurring characters.

I got into the Marvel stuff for a bit, then got out of it when I realised that Marvel expected me to buy 2-3 titles that I had no interest in if I wanted to keep up with a story. Net result? Instead of buying 3 extra titles, I stopped buying any. So instead of getting an extra £3-5 out of me, they ceased to get the £2-4 they were already getting.

When I got back into comics years later, it was after finding that the webcomics serialisation model appealed to me and that printed collections also appeal to me. I understand why publishers like serialisation in terms of amortising costs, but the price point and content is just not there for a mass market medium when it comes to the superhero stuff. Some indie direct market stuff gets it right (Criminal, Phonogram) but they're the exceptions, not the rule.

I should stress at this point that I'm not talking about the validity of superheroes or the quality of the stories, just the perception amongst readers of the value per issue compared to the price per issue. I'd love to see a wider comics market with space for every genre to thrive, I just don't think it's going to happen with the current price and format intact.

Gambler

Oh yeah, I much prefer the comic format simply because it is more complex. "Superhero" movies just aren't the same as the comics that inspired them and to my mind there is no real comparison, I just get that some people prefer the movie..

I do think that comics these days are more difficult to just pick up and read, I can't remember the last time I saw a (big name) comic that didn't have some sort of reference to previous continuity that you needed to know to get the most out of it.

][cEMAN**

You're right about comic companies looking to suck as much cash out of you as they can. You buy the comic for the story, and shouldn't be expected to go outside of what you read just to be given the rest of it.

If you follow a few different books it's a novelty when the story flows between them, but not everyone will do this, and not everyone will follow the same books. Example would be spiderman - there have been over the years so many different books that have come out, and the stories often play back and forth between them. It's great for the person who buys every single spiderman comic available that month, but if someone reads 1 of the spiderman titles, and also buys some image or DC titles etc, they don't get what they should already be getting from the one they buy month in month out.

Special runs and longer stories were great, but as a novelty. They would have been better as a mini series, bringing in characters from all over the universe of whatever publisher was putting it out, rather than forcing you to buy issues of a character you wouldn't have before, just to follow the story. If that were the case it could serve to introduce new readers to multiple characters, and leave them coming out of it deciding that they wanted to follow up by buying a certain characters book each month.

I personally think that's why people seem to go for graphic novels or 12 part minis. They know that the story is going to start and end in the book they're reading, and not stray to other publishings, or go off in random tangents where the story will never get tied up.

Gambler

Fysh wrote: »

I should stress at this point that I'm not talking about the validity of superheroes or the quality of the stories, just the perception amongst readers of the value per issue compared to the price per issue. I'd love to see a wider comics market with space for every genre to thrive, I just don't think it's going to happen with the current price and format intact.

I'm not entirely up on what the market is like these days but surely the future for lower cost comics is in the digital format. The production costs of a good quality modern printed comic make it difficult to make comics cheap enough to reach the widest possible market but surely there is a cheaper digital option that would allow more people to get into comics?

ztoical

Gambler wrote: »

I'm not entirely up on what the market is like these days but surely the future for lower cost comics is in the digital format. The production costs of a good quality modern printed comic make it difficult to make comics cheap enough to reach the widest possible market but surely there is a cheaper digital option that would allow more people to get into comics?

There are loads of issues with digital comics at the moment for the major mainstream publishers. For people publishing their own stuff it's easy enough for them to offer it free online and then sell a print version but with serial comics the way artists and writers are paid by the publisher is based on sales and the creative side are weary to move into digital comics as they fear they will lose out money wise. It's alot like what you saw with the writers strike a while back...no one saw what dvd's were going to do to film/television and the writers were losing a big chunk of royalties as a result....for artists who make a living via royalties from sales of issues they are slow to move to digital as there has been no breakdown on exactly how the money would work out and given what DC has been paying for their Zuda line I can't blame them for wanting to stick with what they know.

Sleazus

I say this as a recent comic book fan - I think that a lot of people are put off by the inherent geekiness of the medium (it's the same logic people who haven't seen Star Wars use to trash it while talking about sports signings day-in and day-out, for example - somehow one esoteric interest is nerd and the other is cool) and by the rather basic "it has pictures in it, therefore it's less advanced than a real book and I don't read them anyway" approach.

But, and I'm being honest here, some of the best books on the market are incredibly difficult to get in for and are overloaded with continuity references to decades of past stories. If, after I saw The Dark Knight, I wanted to pick up a Batman comic, the issues on the shelves were the climax to Grant Morrison's new age continuity porn three-year-in-the-making epic killing Bruce Wayne (or a five-issue storyline from Paul Dini featuring a villain who didn't exist five years ago and tying up a romantic subplot that's been running years*). That's not a criticism of either storyline, just that it can be difficult to just "jump in" to a character who has been running for so long.

That every other comic is part of some huge event makes it seem even more insular. It locks the nerds in for the companies, but locks regular folk out. When I ordered my first collected editions, I took a good three months to figure out what I needed to buy to understand what I wanted to read. I'm not kidding.

There's also the very simple fact that most of the best superhero movies - those which would draw in the audience - are pretty grounded in reality (or verisimiltude). On the otherhand, those picking up Ed Brubaker's run on Captain America to cram for the movie adaptation will have killer robots and flying cars thrown in their face along with reality-altering cubes. That's Flash-Gordon-style sci-fi and not necessarily to the taste of someone who fell in love with the Iron Man film. Even The Long Halloween, providing the inspiration for The Dark Knight, features a few jarringly over-the-top moments amidst it's fantastic noir atmosphere (like a fist-fight on a bi-plane). Note that I love the above examples, but it took me a while to adjust to the conventions of a different medium.

There are only really two collections I'd recommend to any fan of the superhero output of the major studios, as a 'gateway drug'. Frank Miller's Batman: Year One or Mark Millar's The Ultimates. Paul Dini's run on Batman would be a close third.

As a guy, I've been searching for a comic my girlfriend can read, and the closest I've come is Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men because of the name above the title or Alan Moore's The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen because she was an English student.

I think the medium of comic books is inherently different to the medium of film, and that's assuming you could even get them to read the comic in the first place and get past the more basic "comics are for geeks" logic and the "picture books are for kids" logic.

* which is ironic, because before Heart of Hush, Paul Dini was doing years of fantastic done-in-one continuity-light stories that would ahve perfectly complemented the noir atmosphere of the film.