Retrain as a maths teacher?

pljudge321

As per this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055826764

And this news report http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0211/education.html

Would any of you, particularly those who are unfortunate enough to have lost their jobs or a severe reduction in pay/hours, consider becoming a maths/applied maths/physics teacher in secondary level.

I know that I would know enough to do the job but I don't think I'd have the patience or the sort of teaching flair that a good maths teacher requires.

godtabh

I'd consider it if I thought there would be a job at the end of it

miss no stars

one of my friends is a civil graduate in england and is doing just that. I think it's a great idea because one of the problems I always found was that (and no offence to science graduates), the science graduates that become maths teachers don't know how to use the maths in reall ife so can't explain why it's important or how it's used.

personally I wouldn't mind becoming a maths/physics teacher. June, July and August!

Jonathan

The majority of engineering degrees only qualify you to teach Maths and Applied Maths.

No Physics though. Most engineers wouldn't learn much about nuclear physics.

dan_d

That's an interesting piece of paper on that link.
Not sure how many jobs are available though.

miss no stars

Jonathan wrote: »

The majority of engineering degrees only qualify you to teach Maths and Applied Maths.

No Physics though. Most engineers wouldn't learn much about nuclear physics.

Not quite so. http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_RegCtee/Autoquals_Updated_9thOctober2009_55076717.pdf is a list of all degrees approved for teaching with, and the subjects for which they are approved.

Edit: it seems to depend on where you did your degree. for the NUIs it seems to be Maths and Applied maths only, for DIT anyway it's Maths, Physics and Computer Studies

pljudge321

After having seen the new maths course I'd be extremely put off, its disgracefully simplified.

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

miss no stars

oh man, a lot of that should be junior cert ordinary level.

heh, how Irish a solution. Not enough people are reaching a "higher level" standard... So lower the bar? Yeah, that'll solve the problem alright!

pljudge321

miss no stars wrote: »

oh man, a lot of that should be junior cert ordinary level.

heh, how Irish a solution. Not enough people are reaching a "higher level" standard... So lower the bar? Yeah, that'll solve the problem alright!

Its going to make the first year of anyones engineering/maths/physics etc degree an absolute nightmare. They wanted less people dropping out early in technical courses, can see this maths course having the opposite effect.

thewools

pljudge321 wrote: »

After having seen the new maths course I'd be extremely put off, its disgracefully simplified.

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

OMG - I know things look easy after completing the leaving / college but surely that sample paper is taking the pi$$??

Pembily

pljudge321 wrote: »

After having seen the new maths course I'd be extremely put off, its disgracefully simplified.

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/PM_ATAL_sample_Jan_2010.pdf

That paper is an insult!!!!!!!!!

I may retrain as a teacher at a later stage!!!

I know we need more mathsy people but dumbing down the paper won't do anything - getting teachers who can teach would be the best solution but this is Ireland!!!

Its really are dumbing down our "Knowledge Economy", once again making asses of the Irish people!

Always good to know that my Mech Eng degree won't be recognised as a degree to allow me to teach!!! But a Bachelor of Science in Product Design
Furniture allows one to teach - Technical Drawing and Communications Graphics :mad::mad:

clartharlear

Jonathan wrote: »

The majority of engineering degrees only qualify you to teach Maths and Applied Maths.

No Physics though. Most engineers wouldn't learn much about nuclear physics.

As it happens, engineering degrees don't qualify you to teach maths or applied maths either, according to a re-think by the Teaching Council.

miss no stars wrote: »

Not quite so. http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_RegCtee/Autoquals_Updated_9thOctober2009_55076717.pdf is a list of all degrees approved for teaching with, and the subjects for which they are approved.

Edit: it seems to depend on where you did your degree. for the NUIs it seems to be Maths and Applied maths only, for DIT anyway it's Maths, Physics and Computer Studies

My degree (Electrical Engineering, UCC) is on that list, but the Teaching Council said that that list doesn't really mean anything, and engineering degrees aren't enough to approve someone for teaching any second level subject.

Note: I have a post grad dip in education (hdip) and several years experience of teaching, and prior to that, of working in industry.

Pembily

clartharlear wrote: »

As it happens, engineering degrees don't qualify you to teach maths or applied maths either, according to a re-think by the Teaching Council.


My degree (Electrical Engineering, UCC) is on that list, but the Teaching Council said that that list doesn't really mean anything, and engineering degrees aren't enough to approve someone for teaching any second level subject.

Note: I have a post grad dip in education (hdip) and several years experience of teaching, and prior to that, of working in industry.

So someone who knows the application of the maths is not qualified but an Arts student who did a Hdip is!!! Ah yes Irish thinking!!!

SkepticOne

Pembily wrote: »

I know we need more mathsy people but dumbing down the paper won't do anything - getting teachers who can teach would be the best solution but this is Ireland!!!

Why do we need more mathsy people? If we needed more would that not be reflected in demand for engineers and the like? Instead we have engineers wondering if they should retrain as teachers. There's also a thread on here from an engineer wondering if he should go back to being a chef. Over on the Physics/Chemistry board there are people wondering if there's much point to their physics degree in terms of jobs in physics.

dudara

That Leaving Cert paper is joke - that's stuff that should be understood at a Junior Cert level.

I spent 5 years as a postgrad - teaching labs and lecturing part-time. The clever people will always be clever but I saw a longer and longer tail-end of poorer people coming into degree courses.

It's no wonder that the head of Google in Ireland is saying that we're not producing graduates of sufficient calibre any more.

miss no stars

SkepticOne wrote: »

Why do we need more mathsy people? If we needed more would that not be reflected in demand for engineers and the like? Instead we have engineers wondering if they should retrain as teachers. There's also a thread on here from an engineer wondering if he should go back to being a chef. Over on the Physics/Chemistry board there are people wondering if there's much point to their physics degree in terms of jobs in physics.

people with strong backgrounds in maths are often employed in other sectors because of the way they think. That aside, the government is trying to push a knowledge based economy. A very fundamental requirement for a knowledge based economy (which in practise means R&D in science and engineering) is people who understand maths. How can you have a knowledge based economy if fewer than how many? 15% of people in the country? can pass a higher level maths exam?!

Here's a reality check, we do NOT have vast natural resources, we do NOT have fantastic transport links with other countries, we are NOT cheap so we do need something to make us attractive to multinationals. Right now, they're saying basically "Hey, when we came here, you guys were turning out good standards. Now? Not so much.. so em, we think we're gonna leave". That's a huge problem.

I'd consider training as a maths teacher not just because structural engineering isn't in such great shape here at the momet - I could just emigrate when I graduate - I would teach because I BELIEVE that maths is important but is being incorrectly portrayed as exceptionally difficult and is being poorly taught. That has to change and the best way to show that a lot of the "difficult" maths isn't so difficult is to get someone in to teach it who understands it. By understand I mean something who doesn't just know how to "do" the method, but knows what's going on and where to use it. That way, they CAN answer the "when will I ever use this" from 12 and 13 year olds in first year, get the basics down properly so that they're UNDERSTOOD and maybe, just maybe, higher level would not be so unattainable to most.

miss no stars

miss no stars wrote: »

That way, they CAN answer the "when will I ever use this" from 12 and 13 year olds in first year, get the basics down properly so that they're UNDERSTOOD and maybe, just maybe, higher level would not be so unattainable to most.

I remember asking my maths teacher this and she stood there dumbfounded
She give me the brush off in the end - very inspiring to a 15 year old :rolleyes:

I reckon the Teaching Council are now refusing to acknowledge Eng Degrees because the learn by rote teachers would be upstaged

SkepticOne

miss no stars wrote: »

people with strong backgrounds in maths are often employed in other sectors because of the way they think. That aside, the government is trying to push a knowledge based economy. A very fundamental requirement for a knowledge based economy (which in practise means R&D in science and engineering) is people who understand maths. How can you have a knowledge based economy if fewer than how many? 15% of people in the country? can pass a higher level maths exam?!

But then when they do, they can't find work as engineers. I realise that a lot of it is down to the current recession but you would think that, given the stated importance of engineering and maths, these professions would be the least affected.

Here's a reality check, we do NOT have vast natural resources, we do NOT have fantastic transport links with other countries, we are NOT cheap so we do need something to make us attractive to multinationals. Right now, they're saying basically "Hey, when we came here, you guys were turning out good standards. Now? Not so much.. so em, we think we're gonna leave". That's a huge problem.

Again, given that we've a very large presence of multinationals in Ireland compared to other countries, indeed this is one of the areas that has held up well in the recession, why are we seeing engineers looking to retrain or going back to being chefs or emigrating? Something doesn't add up (no pun intended).

miss no stars

SkepticOne wrote: »

But then when they do, they can't find work as engineers. I realise that a lot of it is down to the current recession but you would think that, given the stated importance of engineering and maths, these professions would be the least affected. Again, given that we've a very large presence of multinationals in Ireland compared to other countries, indeed this is one of the areas that has held up well in the recession, why are we seeing engineers looking to retrain or going back to being chefs or emigrating? Something doesn't add up (no pun intended).

I'm not sure if you're aware, but recession also hits multinationals... Recession is also choking the normal career changes at higher levels. Oh and dell did kinda ya know, pull out of Ireland. Other companies just aren't hiring to cost save and are letting people go. What do you do, out of interest?

Anyway, people have ALWAYS retrained, in all sectors. If anything, engineers teaching maths is the most sensible retraining move that could be made!

SkepticOne

miss no stars wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're aware, but recession also hits multinationals... Recession is also choking the normal career changes at higher levels. Oh and dell did kinda ya know, pull out of Ireland. Other companies just aren't hiring to cost save and are letting people go. What do you do, out of interest?

Anyway, people have ALWAYS retrained, in all sectors. If anything, engineers teaching maths is the most sensible retraining move that could be made!

Note that I'm not knocking the individual person for retraining into some other area. What I'm questioning is the normally stated dictum that Ireland needs more mathematically trained people. A friend who worked in the pharmaceutical industry in a scientific capacity during the boom complained that the highly paid in that area were not those working a technical capacity but marketing professionals and this was where most of the jobs were. With the likes of Dell, although I'm sure there were those with engineering qualifications employed, were they fully utilised as engineers when most of the product design was done outside of Ireland.

You said earlier that we need something to make us attractive to multinationals. I can see why a multinational might be attracted to a country that turns out X number of engineering graduates, Y number of mathematics graduates and so on, but from the point of view of the individual with these qualifications, the actual demand when they graduate is not there compared to other professions.

My belief is that this should not be the case. Something has gone wrong and needs to be addressed. We should not be turning out graduates in these areas because some government minister can stand up and announce the numbers graduating. We should be turning them out because when they graduate they will be snapped up because the country genuinely needs them.