Conference realignment in college football

frostie500

Ive been seeing a lot of stories the last week or so about the different conferences looking to realign in the near future. The SEC is obviously set with their recent CBS deal and no team will be leaving there but other BCS conferences are making overtures about expanding to 12 teams and therefore get a title game. Larry Scott the PAC-10 commisoner came out and said that that conference is actively looking to expand so presumibly they will look to take two teams and have a title game. The Big 10 has had 11 teams in it since Penn State and with their TV deal nearing an end they are also looking at expansion.

The PAC-10 is apparently leaning towards Utah and Mizzou for their expansion due to both schools being in major tv markets and being of high academic standing. The Big 10 is looking everywhere for a potential school but it seems that Texas are their prize. Its easy to see why Texas would be top of the list for them with their success on the field the last decade and the huge revenues the school makes through their sports programs.

The big question is would Texas give up its rivalry games with Oklahoma and Texas A&M? I cant see the school or the state of Texas giving up the brawl. When the South West was disolved the PAC went for Texas as their prize expansion team and failed because the state legislate wouldnt allow Texas to leave without A&M. I'd imagine a similar veto would occur if Texas tried to leave the BIG 12 with A&M, as a result it could mean that the PAC-10 looks to take the 'horns and the Aggies as they move to become the PAC-12 and leave the Big 10 looking elsewhere at Mizzou, Rutgers, and a host of other teams.

It's been a while since there was expansions or realignments-2003 when the ACC poached Miami. Is another blockbuster move in the offing now? You'd have to say that if the PAC-10(the most traditional of all conferences) are actually talking about the possibility of an expansion than the chances are improved greatly

Black Swan

frostie500 wrote: »

The Big 10 has had 11 teams in it since Penn State

When our USC Trojans played a team from the Big 10, we used to cheer from the student section that "The Big 10 Doesn't Count!"

Trojan

Any chance of ND looking to join a conf, or would that mess their nice TV deal?

D3PO

Trojan wrote: »

Any chance of ND looking to join a conf, or would that mess their nice TV deal?

you would have a better chance of being struck by lightening twice. Why share a small pool of TV money with 11 others when you can have a bigger chunk to yourself as is ? not to mention giving up an easier route into a BCS bowl

Tallaght Saint

Always wondered why are ND independants?

tallaghtoutlaws

Tallaght Saint wrote: »

Always wondered why are ND independants?

One word "Money"

They have their own TV rights and are Guaranteed money from the BCS and they are very wealthy school. In their eyes why join a conference when you are already making a ton of money.

Oh and to add as their Schedule is full of Top Rivalries and generally full of top College opponents they are always in the limelight and for away games generally on National TV in a lot of those Top Rival games. So its all win win for them. If they went into a conference they would have to cut out many of their top rival games due to scheduling conflicts.

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

One word "Money"

They have their own TV rights and are Guaranteed money from the BCS and they are very wealthy school. In their eyes why join a conference when you are already making a ton of money.

Oh and to add as their Schedule is full of Top Rivalries and generally full of top College opponents they are always in the limelight and for away games generally on National TV in a lot of those Top Rival games. So its all win win for them. If they went into a conference they would have to cut out many of their top rival games due to scheduling conflicts.

One thing to remember about the Irish is that it is only their football program that is an independent their other sports are aligned with the Big East

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

One thing to remember about the Irish is that it is only their football program that is an independent their other sports are aligned with the Big East

Was fully aware of that And we are talking football here

frostie500

Not to dig up old thread but Colorado has accepted an invitation to join the PAC-10.

This will be the first of many moves in the next few days, Nebraska will be bolting to the Big 10 now that the BIG 12 hasnt enough teams for a title game. With the move to ten teams the, former, BIG 12 conference is not suitable to Texas so they will look to move, to the PAC conference and they will take with them aTm and the other arch rival Oaklahoma who will also take with them Oakie State leaving the PAC conference as an unbelievable one!

One thing that will occur if there is such a massive change in the demograhics of college football is that Notre Dame will have to revaluate its status as an independant. They will not earn enough TV money relative to their rivals who will reap the rewards of new deals due to expanded conferences. ND will be forced into joining a conference otherwise they will fall aurther and further behind other schools

frostie500

Boise have confirmed that they will joing the Mountain West as well today

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

Not to dig up old thread but Colorado has accepted an invitation to join the PAC-10.

This will be the first of many moves in the next few days, Nebraska will be bolting to the Big 10 now that the BIG 12 hasnt enough teams for a title game. With the move to ten teams the, former, BIG 12 conference is not suitable to Texas so they will look to move, to the PAC conference and they will take with them aTm and the other arch rival Oaklahoma who will also take with them Oakie State leaving the PAC conference as an unbelievable one!

One thing that will occur if there is such a massive change in the demograhics of college football is that Notre Dame will have to revaluate its status as an independant. They will not earn enough TV money relative to their rivals who will reap the rewards of new deals due to expanded conferences. ND will be forced into joining a conference otherwise they will fall aurther and further behind other schools

Texas A&M have apparently applied for the SEC and no word on Texas doing the same. That really shakes up their rivalry if A&M go to the SEC. Could mean a couple of seasons with no head to head game. And leaves the Big 12 South not as exciting as previous years. Although Texas will still have Tech to contend with.

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Texas A&M have apparently applied for the SEC and no word on Texas doing the same. That really shakes up their rivalry if A&M go to the SEC. Could mean a couple of seasons with no head to head game. And leaves the Big 12 South not as exciting as previous years. Although Texas will still have Tech to contend with.

A&M are talking to the SEC but there's no chance of the Aggies and the 'horns not playing in the same league. The SEC are talking to them so as to gain a greater market in Dallas and Houston but this conference makes no sense to A&M. They would be in the same division as Arkansas , 'Bama and LSU and for them to win consistently against those schools would be asking a lot of the school.

Texas are still state funded so the state legislate would have to sign off on Texas playing in a conference different to A&M, and Tech, so I doubt greatly that the schools would be seperated. The PAC looks the most appealing-new TV contracts upcoming, Texas can still set up their own sports channel and all rivalarys can continue-if Oaklahoma joing as well.

cheesehead

Tallaghtoutlaws - Notre Dame currently maintains football independence for many reasons - money being one of them. Remember, in 1926 Notre Dame applied for (what was then) Big 10 conference membership. Their application was denied (many reports of anti-Catholicism from various Big 10 conference members playing a large role in the rejection). Thus, Notre Dame was forced to play a "national" schedule in order to fill out their season: USC in the LA Coliseum, Army at the New York Pologrounds, Oklahoma in Norman, etc..

Ironically, this barn-storming approach to football scheduling allowed this small Catholic college from the plains of Northern Indiana to gain a national following, rather than the likely regional following they would have enjoyed if the Big 10 had originally accepted their application for membership. Immigrant Catholics from Europe (Ireland, Italy, Poland), many of whom faced anti-Catholic discrimination during the work week, took delight at this small Catholic college routinely beating the "established powers" of the day. The national following strongly continues to the present day.

While I agree with much of what Frostie500 states, I don't believe Notre Dame is going to be "forced" into anything at this time. In fact, I believe ND continues to hold a strong hand, and is patiently waiting to see how drastically the college football landscape will change - and ND can continue to patiently wait. If ND joins the Big 10 (or another conference), I believe academics will play a large role. ND greatly desires membership in the Association of American Universities (AAU) -a prestigious association of research universities - and Big 10 membership would facilitate entry to the AAU.

tallaghtoutlaws

cheesehead wrote: »

Tallaghtoutlaws - Notre Dame currently maintains football independence for many reasons - money being one of them. Remember, in 1926 Notre Dame applied for (what was then) Big 10 conference membership. Their application was denied (many reports of anti-Catholicism from various Big 10 conference members playing a large role in the rejection). Thus, Notre Dame was forced to play a "national" schedule in order to fill out their season: USC in the LA Coliseum, Army at the New York Pologrounds, Oklahoma in Norman, etc..

Ironically, this barn-storming approach to football scheduling allowed this small Catholic college from the plains of Northern Indiana to gain a national following, rather than the likely regional following they would have enjoyed if the Big 10 had originally accepted their application for membership. Immigrant Catholics from Europe (Ireland, Italy, Poland), many of whom faced anti-Catholic discrimination during the work week, took delight at this small Catholic college routinely beating the "established powers" of the day. The national following strongly continues to the present day.

While I agree with much of what Frostie500 states, I don't believe Notre Dame is going to be "forced" into anything at this time. In fact, I believe ND continues to hold a strong hand, and is patiently waiting to see how drastically the college football landscape will change - and ND can continue to patiently wait. If ND joins the Big 10 (or another conference), I believe academics will play a large role. ND greatly desires membership in the Association of American Universities (AAU) -a prestigious association of research universities - and Big 10 membership would facilitate entry to the AAU.

If it is not about money over the last 10 years for ND ask yourself why they turned the Big Ten down in 1999? Right now with an economic slump you can almost guarantee Universities will be thinking about the Value on the same scale as the academic side. Sure the long term goal for ND is to be part of the AAU but holding that strong hand tight to their chest has worked well financially and you cannot turn around and say that money hasn't been the largest motivator for them over the last decade. Their long term goal maybe the AAU but right now it seems the green trumps that.

With Nebraska's recent move into the Big Ten some economists now believe it is all about money and not Academics, As Nebraska are not Academically on Par with the majority of the Big Ten.

But hey welcome to the forum and thanks for the good insight into the ND history. Always good to have another football fan in the house. As a matter of interest what part of WI do you live in? I spend a lot of time between Ireland and WI.

cheesehead

Thanks for the warm welcome. While originally from the NYC area, I've lived in the Green Bay area the last six years. I actually watched the US-England match today with one of the few "real" Irishman in Northeast Wisconsin - a fellow from Mayo who married an American. If you get up towards Green Bay, give us a shout. There's a nice pub in Green Bay called St. Brendans.

As a US football fan, you would be interested to know this Mayo man spent last Christmas Eve with Mark Murphy - the President of the Green Bay Packers. Mark is apparently quite proud of his Irish roots and inquires from the Mayo man of "news from home".

Regarding ND's rejection of 1999 Big 10 membership, 90% of ND's faculty voted for accepting the Big 10's offer for membership. Huge dissent from alumni forced the administration to reject the deal. As far-fetched as it may seem to objective observers, one cannot discount the alumni's fierce defense of ND's tradition of independence. Many of these alumni know the history and the stories --- the grandfather from the old country who latched onto supporting Notre Dame and the dream one day his children or grandchildren would be able to attend the university --- as you know, often times reason is trumped when such emotion is attached to decisions.

I'm not naive, money certainly plays a role. But, when big-money donors to the university demand independence, the administration listens. So I agree with you, money is a motivator, but other considerations are in play. Right now, my best guess says it's 50-50 whether ND joins a conference.

frostie500

The thing that is clear in the recent moves is that college football is being shaped by the money factor that new teams can offer a conference with either new TV deals or renegiated deals.

There are two jewels out there for conferences to chase-Texas and Notre Dame. Texas are the nations largest and most profitable athletic department and are a nationwide school that has the range needed for the TV deals, ND are the only other school that can offer nationwide exposure that is on the market for conferences.

I cant look past the PAC for Texas, the 'Horns would allow the PAC to get a massive TV deal-and make the conference nationally relevant. In the past the PAC-10 has been unable to have the reach of an SEC(with the exception of USC games) but adding Texas, the other Texas teams and Oaklahoma that conference becomes massive for a TV company and a must have.

The Big 10 has added Nebraska so can now hold a title game but the main object of their affection is obviously ND. Notre Dame have, as you said Cheesehead, passed on joining a conference but right now their TV deal with NBC doesnt offer the value for money that joining the Big 10 would offer. The Big 10 cable network and TV contracts offer massive cash potential to ND, much greater than the donations of alumni.

At the end of the day this will all come down to money and ND will be able to offer their other sports programs, as well as their academic programs much greater value by joining the Big 10 rather than staying an independant. They can still play SC each year but if they do not join a conference the gap between the Irish and other football teams will continue to grow and the school would continue to become of increasinlgy marginal importance on the field. Joining a conference is, in my view, the only way that ND can return to challenge for a national title in future

cheesehead

Frostie500, again, I agree with the vast majority of what you write. However, many ND supporters (read influential alumni) loathe the idea of ND joining the Big 10. Arguments have been put forth detailing the gap in revenue between what ND collects now and what it would collect based on Big 10 membership is not quite as large as the media would lead one to believe.

The Big Ten greatly relies on Big Ten Network revenue, and in order to increase that revenue it needs new cable markets (read South or East Coast). This would entail offering schools beside ND (such as Pitt or Rutgers). This necessarily divides the revenue pie and many believe Rutgers can't deliver the NYC market (people will protest if the NYC cable provider increases their monthly bill by adding the Big Ten Network to the basic cable lineup - and that's where the "real" TV money comes from). Again, it's definitely a situation in flux and I think ND can remain patient before it decides what to do. Reports this morning are Texas A & M is heading to the SEC and the ACC apparently is committed to remaining intact (for now). If that holds, I don't see the Big East being raided and thus ND keeps a conference for its non-revenue olympic teams. I must admit, it makes for interesting theater.

Regarding your statement if ND doesn't join a conference the gap between ND football and other programs will grow, that is where one would generate the greatest amount of protest from ND Nation. Notre Dame football needs to win games. If the proper coach is in place, many believe ND will "be back" within 3 years. Now it's been 15 years since ND has been relevant on the field and this argument is beginning to ring hollow. However, hope springs eternal. If Brian Kelly is the man for the job, we should know by the midway point of the upcoming season. If Kelly is "the next Lou Holtz", ND football should be in great shape for the next ten years. I personally have not drank the Brian Kelly kool-aid (yet), but like the fact the man has a 19 year record of accomplishment as a head coach. We will see.

cheesehead

Frostie and Tallaght - sorry if I'm beating the proverbial dead horse with this, but as I was mowing the yard today a thought crossed my mind that may help better explain my point of view regarding ND and conference membership/independence.

Take the GAA. It's the largest amateur athletic association in the world. Often the topic of paying its players comes up in conversation. Many rational arguments for paying GAA players exist, however the leap to "professionalizing" the GAA has not been taken. Why? I don't live in Ireland, so I don't know the fine details on why such a step has not been taken, but I believe the gist of the argument (and I may be quite off-base on this) remains with how intimately tied the GAA is not only with each community that fields teams, but also how intimately tied the GAA is to modern Irish history - leaders of '16, Hill 16, Michael Hogan, etc... Would paying GAA players, abolishing the amateur status, threaten the strong link that now exists between communities and the GAA and somehow lessen the link with the honored past? Is taking the GAA professional, which might make all the financial sense in the world, worth the possibility of destroying these special community links and potentially tarnishing the memory of the honored past? I don't know the answer to those questions.

On a much smaller scale than the GAA's link with Irish communities and Irish history, ND's history is intimately tied to the immigrant Catholic story of America. Not only do Notre Dame alums appreciate this, but so do many of the vast number of so-called "Subway Alumni" (those who didn't attend the university but consider it "their own" and whom ND alumni consider members of "The Notre Dame Family"). Notre Dame's independence is intimately linked with this story. One won't read about this in the daily press, but the powers-that-be of the University know how important this is to the alumni and subway alumni. Frankly, many alumni are concerned that ND's leaders are willing to exchange ND's independence for what many see as nothing more than a marginal revenue gain. Is a marginal revenue gain worth the possibility of lessening the link to ND's valued subway alumni (nationwide community) and tarnishing the memory of the honored past? To this question, I personally say no.

As an aside, I'm not much of an internet message board poster, but you fellas got me thinking. Thanks for listening and thanks for the conversation.

frostie500

But Cheesehead I don't see how ND football becoming part of a conference affects the feeling of fans. The Irish are a part of a conference with all of their other sports and while in the past they had one of the best tv deals in the land they do not have that any longer. If the school joins a conference they increase revenues AND can still play a national slate of games. Instead of playing small schools, like their likely conference foes, they schudule their traditional game with USC. By joining the Big 10 they get to play against schools like Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and Nebraska every year as well as SC and one more game against say Texas or another high profile school such as Miami etc.

The school can increase revenue by joining a conference and still play against at least six of the biggest schools in college football every year. Alumni and the subway alumni wont care too much once the deal is made-its the process of the school joining a conference that they fear. This move will happen because economics will make it impossible to avoid and with ND becoming increasingly unimportant on the field their next TV deal as an independant will not be as profitable as their current deal

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Very Very bad comparison to be honest. Most of those at a player level want the sport to go professional so players on a county level get paid. Most of the New Era of the GAA want the same. The problem here is the old contingent who feel it would upset the past of the sport. Now money is also a major factor in this. Right now every GAA club in Ireland pays membership to the GAA. The GAA are one of the richest sporting organisations in Europe. Think of this way the say they want to stick to tradition but if they started to pay their players how much of that wealth will they retain.

The GAA are simply not paying players due to Money and Money alone in my eyes. To be honest with you as I see from your other posts elsewhere you are ND alumni so I feel you are slightly biased in your defense of ND which hey is understandable the school means a lot to you. But in the modern world I truly believe money trumps everything else. I can't see how the school will tarnish any reputation off the field by wanting to earn more money.

Tallaght you are a bit off the mark with some of your comments. I suggest you go to the GAA forum with that to get corrected. Hopefully you come back alive.:D

Welcome to the forum Cheesehead. I am a ND fan too, never attended the college or lived there but went and visited when I lived in the US and I loved the place and all its history.

cheesehead

Good evening from this side of the pond. I apologize if I stirred the pot regarding the GAA analogy - it was not my intention.

Frostie, when you ask how ND becoming part of a conference affects the feeling of the fans, I think seeing Tallaght's/Eagle Eye's give and take regarding the GAA appropriately demonstrates how sport often transcends the "playing field". So much emotion is attached to things besides the mere winning and losing of matches. This is the case with Notre Dame football. Many times we are at a loss to rationally explain those feelings and emotions. As we often times say: "It is what it is"

Regardless, it looks like ND's independence may be safe for the time being. Texas (and her Big 12 South partners) and Texas A & M have apparently rejected the advances of their suitors (Pac 10 and SEC) and will stick in the new Big 12 (now ten members). This likely will keep the Big East from being raided and thus ND keeps a conference for basketball and other non-revenue Olympic sports and her football independence (for now! who knows what tomorrow may bring).

Now, if Kelly and the boys can win some games and make themselves relevant again on the field, ND won't be as subjected to the winds of change the next time they begin to blow. While I've just met you lads, if you ever make it to South Bend on a football Saturday, tickets are on me - here's looking at you Eagle Eye.

For all you GAA fans out there I've just got one thing to say: Up Donegal!