Tyrone Bans

radharc

McEnaney has decided to upgrade Gormley, McMenamin & Penrose (all named in starting XV) to red cards after reviewing last weeks footage. What are the chances of their appeal being held before Sunday? If not, you'd have to fancy Mayo at 15/8...

cruiserweight

radharc wrote: »

McEnaney has decided to upgrade Gormley, McMenamin & Penrose (all named in starting XV) to red cards after reviewing last weeks footage. What are the chances of their appeal being held before Sunday? If not, you'd have to fancy Mayo at 15/8...

Do you have a link?

dcr22B

Eoin Bradley has also been suspended and will miss the Dublin game tomorrow night.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/tyrone-derry-players-banned-2061206.html

baalthor

Mickey Harte was just on Radio 1 complaining that the suspensions wouldnt have happened if the game hadnt been televised...

keane2097

baalthor wrote: »

Mickey Harte was just on Radio 1 complaining that the suspensions wouldnt have happened if the game hadnt been televised...

Why in the world that should matter escapes me.

His argument is essentially "we would hve gotten away with it if no one had seen it".

For such a preeminant football man to claim this as an injustice is a very bad example to set.

MementoMori

baalthor wrote: »

Mickey Harte was just on Radio 1 complaining that the suspensions wouldnt have happened if the game hadnt been televised...

Utter joke by Harte coming out with this.

A petulant childish thing to say.

A more accurate statement would have been the suspensions wouldn't have happened if Gormley, McMenamin & Penrose hadn't broken the rules.

Take some personal responsibility for god's sake.

Also nearly sure there were television cameras at pretty much all the games.

baalthor

keane2097 wrote: »

Why in the world that should matter escapes me.

His argument is essentially "we would hve gotten away with it if no one had seen it".

For such a preeminant football man to claim this as an injustice is a very bad example to set.

And he was such a fierce critic of the Aussies
Im not surprised though, this is the attitude among the bigger teams unfortunately.

keane2097

baalthor wrote: »

And he was such a fierce critic of the Aussies
Im not surprised though, this is the attitude among the bigger teams unfortunately.

I have only ever heard Micky Harte making these kinds of arguments to be fair.

radharc

I agree with ye lads to an extent but there's no denying that as it stands the high profile teams are far more open to scrutiny than the smaller teams. Obviously digs off the ball shouldn't be happening at all but it's still not a fair system where you're only likely to get a ban if its live on TV.

mcdermott

keane2097 wrote: »

Why in the world that should matter escapes me.

His argument is essentially "we would hve gotten away with it if no one had seen it".

For such a preeminant football man to claim this as an injustice is a very bad example to set.

no thats not what he said or meant.

What he said was "'To do it fairly, every game in the League needs to be video-taped,' Harte said. 'If you do it with every game that's fine. I'm happy to live with that."

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2010/0215/tyrone.html

You cant argue with that....

keane2097

radharc wrote: »

I agree with ye lads to an extent but there's no denying that as it stands the high profile teams are far more open to scrutiny than the smaller teams. Obviously digs off the ball shouldn't be happening at all but it's still not a fair system where you're only likely to get a ban if its live on TV.

mcdermott wrote: »

no thats not what he said or meant.

What he said was "'To do it fairly, every game in the League needs to be video-taped,' Harte said. 'If you do it with every game that's fine. I'm happy to live with that."

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2010/0215/tyrone.html

You cant argue with that....

I can and do argue that players should be let get away with recorded, demonstrable offences just because somebody else got away with it in a different game.

Shocking attitude imo.

mcdermott

keane2097 wrote: »

I can and do argue that players should be let get away with recorded, demonstrable offences just because somebody else got away with it in a different game.

Shocking attitude imo.

Im not asking for anyone to get away with anything.

The fact is everyone should be open to the same level of discipline. And the point being made here is that those that play on games that are shown on TV are disciplined more than those that arent on tv.

keane2097

mcdermott wrote: »

Im not asking for anyone to get away with anything.

The fact is everyone should be open to the same level of discipline. And the point being made here is that those that play on games that are shown on TV are disciplined more than those that arent on tv.

How are they disciplined more?

Any player who is caught committing an offence is suitably punished. How a player is caught is entirely irrelevant.

It would be great if we could record every match and catch even more offenders this way. If we can't we should still use the videos of the matches we can to punish as many offenders as possible.

I dont know

How are they disciplined more?

Not denying that the 3 players in question done something wrong, (they probably did) but when playing live on TV there is more chance of them being disciplined for something the ref didn’t discipline them for at the time, because more people will have been watching and reporters etc will be pointing out that particular players should have been punished in the papers, Sunday game etc.

Take yesterdays Roscommon V Fermanagh game for example. No one really cares about it ( no offence guys) It wasn’t on live TV, although I’m sure it was recorded. Like any game of football the length and breadth of the country, there was sure to have been a bit of ‘off the ball’ pulling & tugging etc – in other words ‘committing an offence not within the rules of the game’? Do the members of the CCCC & refs sit down and watch every minute of every game after a weekends action? Because it seems to always be the high profile incidents that get punished after a game - surely a bit of this stuff goes on in the lower profile games?

Whos going to come out shouting for so and so to get booked for something that happened in this game? The national media don’t care and will barely cover it. But if it’s a ryan mcmenamin, paul galvin, type player, well then there’s a witch-hunt to make sure the guy is punished, while another intercounty player from a team no one is interested in can commit the same offence in the same day and get away with it.

I understand Mickey Harte’s point - 'If you do it with every game that's fine. I'm happy to live with that’

Remember, this policy of reviewing video analysis has been going on for 2 years now. Do yous think that all those off the ball incidents in the past 2 years that were caught on TV were dealt with fairly?
The first that comes to mind is Miskella on Brian McGuigan? The man would have missed an AIF, the ref decided not to change his decision ( which even McGuigan was happy with as he wouldn’t have wanted to see a man miss such a day), but really, if refs are going to be consistent, he should have.

keane2097

I dont know wrote: »

Not denying that the 3 players in question done something wrong, (they probably did) but when playing live on TV there is more chance of them being disciplined for something the ref didn’t discipline them for at the time, because more people will have been watching and reporters etc will be pointing out that particular players should have been punished in the papers, Sunday game etc.

Take yesterdays Roscommon V Fermanagh game for example. No one really cares about it ( no offence guys) It wasn’t on live TV, although I’m sure it was recorded. Like any game of football the length and breadth of the country, there was sure to have been a bit of ‘off the ball’ pulling & tugging etc – in other words ‘committing an offence not within the rules of the game’? Do the members of the CCCC & refs sit down and watch every minute of every game after a weekends action? Because it seems to always be the high profile incidents that get punished after a game - surely a bit of this stuff goes on in the lower profile games?

None of this is being "disciplined more". This is just being "caught more".

Guys who don't get caught get away with stuff, admittedly this is not ideal. It's not an argument for not punishing players in the cases where we can prove an offence occurred at all.

I dont know wrote: »

Whos going to come out shouting for so and so to get booked for something that happened in this game? The national media don’t care and will barely cover it. But if it’s a ryan mcmenamin, paul galvin, type player, well then there’s a witch-hunt to make sure the guy is punished, while another intercounty player from a team no one is interested in can commit the same offence in the same day and get away with it.

Not really relevant. This is a different argument about players' prior reputations affecting their disciplinary treatment. Not got a whole lot to do with this debate as far as I can see.

I dont know wrote: »

I understand Mickey Harte’s point - 'If you do it with every game that's fine. I'm happy to live with that’

Remember, this policy of reviewing video analysis has been going on for 2 years now. Do yous think that all those off the ball incidents in the past 2 years that were caught on TV were dealt with fairly?

No I'd say you're probably right in suggesting that not all cases were detected as we would wish.

Again this is an argument for pursuing offenders more vigorously, which is not the same as an argument that it is wrong to use the evidence that we have to punish the offenders we know about.

I dont know wrote: »

The first that comes to mind is Miskella on Brian McGuigan? The man would have missed an AIF, the ref decided not to change his decision ( which even McGuigan was happy with as he wouldn’t have wanted to see a man miss such a day), but really, if refs are going to be consistent, he should have.

Of course he should have. This is a terrible example. We have a guy we can prove committed a punishable offense and we decide not to punish him.

By your logic we can justify it by saying that since a similar event could have gone unpunished in a low profile league game that wasn't captured on camera we ought to not punish this player for an event I can show you a video of?

That's crazy imo.

I dont know

Yep, pretty much that is what I’m saying and yes it is crazy, but if they are going to over analyse some games and apparently ignore others then what’s the point in doing it at all?
There needs to be consistency. In the 2 years they’ve been doing this there hasn’t been consistency from both the CCCC & referees.
Would McEnaney have made the same decisions had the Tyrone V Derry game been an All-Ireland Semi? Not in the last 2 years anyway. We’ll see later if all refs are going to be consistent with decisions like this throughout 2010.
There were 16 football games last weekend. Will the CCCC be watching them all this week?
I’m in favour of using video analysis to punish those getting away with stuff off the ball, but at the moment I don’t think it is being used fairly.

keane2097

I dont know wrote: »

Yep, pretty much that is what I’m saying and yes it is crazy, but if they are going to over analyse some games and apparently ignore others then what’s the point in doing it at all?
There needs to be consistency. In the 2 years they’ve been doing this there hasn’t been consistency from both the CCCC & referees.
Would McEnaney have made the same decisions had the Tyrone V Derry game been an All-Ireland Semi? Not in the last 2 years anyway. We’ll see later if all refs are going to be consistent with decisions like this throughout 2010.
There were 16 football games last weekend. Will the CCCC be watching them all this week?
I’m in favour of using video analysis to punish those getting away with stuff off the ball, but at the moment I don’t think it is being used fairly.

I disagree with this very little.

The problem with the attitude of Mickey Harte's attitude is that he seems to think offenders who are caught should continue to get away with their offenses until we can catch every offender every game.

This is obviously a farce.

My contention is that if we can stamp out these kinds of offenses by punishments it should be done by any and all means available.

If we can do it game by game, team by team or even player by player we ought to.

keane2097

I've just seen that the Tyrone County Board are threatening to not allow TV cameras into Clones anymore to record games.

This is fcuking disgraceful imo.

Dublin Red Hand

Keane, here is the official view on what Tyrone are saying, from the horses mouth if you like. I don't think they are talking about a ban at all, they're not that stupid. This is from their PRO speaking at the draw for their SFC last night. - http://www.vimeo.com/9510562

homerjay2005

harte was on again last nite on 4fm. his point is when the game is live on tv, tyrone are at a disadvantage because they get more bans than anybody else. maybe its down to the fact that they are acting the bo*lix more than anybody else and the tv means they dont get away with it. they aint on tv more than anybody else in division 1 also for that matter, Kerry have had 2 live games so far and i am sure all the teams will get the same amount of exposure.

he then went on to say that Tyrone would use video evidence to get Joe Mcmahon off. when it suits him, he can do what he wants, i like the man, but now i am starting to see why alot of people dont.pathetic IMO, one of the worse rants in years. you would not hear counhihan, gilroy, kernan, o mahony and o connor coming out with this tripe.

keane2097

Dublin Red Hand wrote: »

Keane, here is the official view on what Tyrone are saying, from the horses mouth if you like. I don't think they are talking about a ban at all, they're not that stupid. This is from their PRO speaking at the draw for their SFC last night. - http://www.vimeo.com/9510562

Could you give me a summary? I can't wtch that at the moment...

patmac

I have the perfect solution, If he plays a load of rubbish players and Tyrone lose every game like Westmeath have done lately, he won't have to worry about television coverage, either that or alternatively tell his players to stop acting the bollix.

popebenny16

I posted about this issue two years ago and it is a basic typical GAA-half-arsed-copycat-of-Soccer type of thing, like yellow and red cards, two yellows being a red, time added on being displayed at the end of games, but just like the others, fecked around with to ensure da committ-tae are happy with the Gealgeoir Stamp of Irishness all over it....

... pauses for beath to get rant out of system.....

anyway, the way this is done is quite obvious, the CCCC do not as a body, all meet up and review every tape of every game that is played. There are reasons for this half arseary - firstly, some of them may be in payed employment or even more importantly on a committee and cant meet up, secondly, the standard of coverage that RTE/TG4/Setanta offer varies from a live match with lots of cameras to a highlighs the next night on Sunday Sport with maybe one camera. Obviously the CCCC reviewing the game with one camera will never see as many incidents as the game with many cameras.

So they dont meet up, so how does this happen? Well if I cast my mind back to what I posted back a few years ago - think it was a championship game - the impression we get is that simply the members of the committee watch the telly just the same as we do. So, if it is a highlights package with one camera showing perhaps one minite of the Divison four match he wont see many incidents, if it is a constantly anylised and re alylised piece at the top of the show on the Sunday Game or during the live transmission of a game he can have plenty of time to rest the cup of tea and make a note in the official notebook sititng on the arm of his chair.

The other arbitrary nature of the process is that it is initiated by the CCCC - not by the Referee. There is therefore the attendent pressure of the referee being advised by the CCCC to "review" the decisions he has made - and as we have oft discussed - this is always with the view of reviewing the decision upwards. If a referee does not do so, there is the maybe unjustified fear that he will not get picked for the big games.

The arbirary nature of the way these incidents are picked out and the way that a referee is left with no real choice is what is unfair in this. Simple solution is for the referees to be allowed to retropectivly look at a decision they make, of their own voilition and initiative, and refer the matter to the CCCC for them to make a ruling on the matter.

popebenny16

Just to add - on the Radio with Brain Carty on Sunday Ryan McMenimin made what has to be the best argument for not sending someone off that I have never heard - that they train hard. In his view, its awfull harsh to have a lad sent off after all the hours that he puts in during training, given the vast amount of hours, days and evenings that are sacraficed. Next time I lose a case I must give the solicitor on the other side a box becuase, you know, I put a lot of time in prepairing the case and that.