Stamp 4 EUFam Visa Query

LegacyUser

Hi,

I have a visa query relating to Stamp 4 EUFam, and was wondering if anyone has had any first hand experience.

Basically, have any Irish Nationals excercised their EU Treaty Rights in an EU member state outside of Ireland, and then applied for a Stamp 4 EUFam visa for their Non-EU wife or husband back in Ireland?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

The Recliner

Moved from PI, this seemed the best fit for it?

watna

The Recliner wrote: »

Moved from PI, this seemed the best fit for it?

Yes, it probably would be the best place although the OP needs to be aware that there is no anonymous posting in Living Abroad Forum so if you want to respond to this thread you'll need to be registered and logged in.

tonymill

I think you'll find that if you are an Irish citizen and you wish to apply for Stamp 4 EU FAM for a family member, that family member must have lived with you in another EU country before you both came to Ireland.

tonymill

P.S. And you must be able to prove it (Both of you).

Supercell

Ireland is non Schengen because of the open border ties we have with the UK that haven't signed up to it.

So while your wife can get a visa to stay here she will need to apply for visa's to visit the rest of the EU in advance but that should be a formality as she is married to an EU citizen.

The Schengen thing really is frustrating, I wish my future wife and I could do something on the spur of the moment like a weekend in Paris..but she won't be able to until naturalization ....

So OP, I guess if you asked for Schengen rights in Germany or France for example you still need the Irish Embassy to grant her the EU Fam Visa and that's only gonna give you and her non Schengen rights, at least that is my understanding of it.

It sucks.

tonymill

The Stamp 4 EU FAM Card does not give non schengen rights - i.e. It does not allow the holder to travel to the UK (Including Northern Ireland), without getting a (Free) Visa from the British Embassy. Stamp 4 EU FAM allows the holder (Amongst other things) to re-enter Ireland without a seperate re-entry Visa. Holders with Stamp4 (As opposed to Stamp 4 EU FAM) need to obtain a re-entry Visa before they leave.

DoesNotCompute

Delko wrote: »

Hi,

I have a visa query relating to Stamp 4 EUFam, and was wondering if anyone has had any first hand experience.

Basically, have any Irish Nationals excercised their EU Treaty Rights in an EU member state outside of Ireland, and then applied for a Stamp 4 EUFam visa for their Non-EU wife or husband back in Ireland?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Not yet, but I intend to on my return to Ireland next year.

p.s. Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but Delko didn't get a response from anyone who'd had first hand experience.

tonymill

I think you'll find that if you are an Irish national, you will not be able to get a Stamp 4 EU FAM card for your spouse / partner / family member. I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that Stamp 4 EU FAM is only granted to EU citizens excercising their right to work elsewhere in the EU. If you are Irish and in Ireland, you are not "elsewhere". This is of course reverse discriminination and I seem to remember a court case in the last year or so that the plaintiff lost against the Irish government. The Judge ruled that it was indeed reverse discrimination but only because Ireland were complying with an EU directive.

DoesNotCompute

tonymill wrote: »

I think you'll find that if you are an Irish national, you will not be able to get a Stamp 4 EU FAM card for your spouse / partner / family member. I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that Stamp 4 EU FAM is only granted to EU citizens excercising their right to work elsewhere in the EU. If you are Irish and in Ireland, you are not "elsewhere". This is of course reverse discriminination and I seem to remember a court case in the last year or so that the plaintiff lost against the Irish government. The Judge ruled that it was indeed reverse discrimination but only because Ireland were complying with an EU directive.

If you are an Irish national who has been exercising your Treaty Rights in another EEA country, and you are now returning to Ireland with your non-EEA spouse, you can apply for a Stamp 4 EUFam.

From the Department of Justice website:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU%20Treaty%20Rights%20FAQs wrote:

Q.10 I am an Irish National. Can my non EEA family members apply for EU Treaty Rights?

A The Directive applies to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members who accompany or join them. (Article 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC)
If, as an Irish national, you have exercised your EU Treaty Rights in another Member State with your family member and have now returned to Ireland you may apply.

Evidence of having exercised your EU Treaty Rights in the other Member State in respect of you and your family member must be submitted with the application along with all other relevant documentation.

tonymill

Nice one. I stand corrected. Anyone reading this should note carefully that

"Evidence of having exercised your EU Treaty Rights in the other Member State in respect of you and your family member must be submitted with the application along with all other relevant documentation."

You must have documented proof that you and your family member resided in another EU country. I would imagine that the minimum period would be either 3 or 6 months.

ChinaBoy

Hey guys, Great thread!

Just to throw a spanner in the works... I have exercised my treaty rights (with my wife) while living and working in the UK. But I then moved to China (via a short spell in Ireland). We are now moving back from China to Ireland. I believe my wife can apply for 'Stamp 4 EU FAM' - Im pretty sure of that. Actually, one issue which is worrying me about that is the fact that my wife was not on a spouse visa while we were in the UK, we were married but she was on a special talent visa (there was no need to change her visa, I thought and still hope). I dont think this will matter, but if you know otherwise.. feel free to shatter my hopes :-)

Anyway, the 'spanner' is that my mother-in-law is coming back with us. Can she apply for 'Stamp 4 EU FAM', as a family member.... but she was not in the UK with us when I exercised my treaty rights?

I'm just going to apply anyway, I dont think it will matter. But the last reply says you need to prove you exercised your rights with your family member??

Right, now it time to get an organisation together to protest against all this crap we have to put up with... as a guy previous stated, he cannot even jump up and go away for a weekend break, spur of the moment thing... taking the romance out of it so they are!

Cheers,
ChinaBoy - not for much longer

tonymill

ChinaBoy - As quoted by DoesNotCompute (above) ........

"Evidence of having exercised your EU Treaty Rights in the other Member State in respect of you and your family member must be submitted with the application along with all other relevant documentation."

However, - I would apply.
It's free and what have you got to lose ?

Here's the form .......... http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20EU1.pdf/Files/Form%20EU1.pdf

Here are the notes .............. http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/EU1%20Explanatory%20Leaflet.pdf/Files/EU1%20Explanatory%20Leaflet.pdf

tonymill

ChinaBoy. Please let us know if you suceed ?

Thanks.

seabhcan

I'm Irish and my wife just got Stamp 4 EU Fam. We applied back in Sept 2010 and she got it in Feb 2011. The guy in INIS said it was the first time he'd seen a spouse of an Irish person get EU Fam. We used to live in the UK before moving to Ireland four years ago.

Anyone following today's Zambrano Judgment? It seems to have declared that Irish people are EU citizens even while being in Ireland - so any spouse of an Irish citizen can (in theory) get EU Fam.

Also see: http://www.4eufam.info/4EUFAM

Supercell

seabhcan wrote: »

I'm Irish and my wife just got Stamp 4 EU Fam. We applied back in Sept 2010 and she got it in Feb 2011. The guy in INIS said it was the first time he'd seen a spouse of an Irish person get EU Fam. We used to live in the UK before moving to Ireland four years ago.

Anyone following today's Zambrano Judgment? It seems to have declared that Irish people are EU citizens even while being in Ireland - so any spouse of an Irish citizen can (in theory) get EU Fam.

Also see: http://www.4eufam.info/4EUFAM

How did you apply?
My wife just got hers a few weeks ago in the GNIB office on Burgh Quay, we went in and she got it on the same day. It was definitely a Stamp 4 (not FAM, I'm Irish and she's Chinese).
Does getting an EU Fam visa mean the holder can freely move around Schengan countries without a separate visa? If that's the case then then Stamp 4 non FAM would be worth changing for us.

seabhcan

Supercell wrote: »

How did you apply?
My wife just got hers a few weeks ago in the GNIB office on Burgh Quay, we went in and she got it on the same day. It was definitely a Stamp 4 (not FAM, I'm Irish and she's Chinese).
Does getting an EU Fam visa mean the holder can freely move around Schengan countries without a separate visa? If that's the case then then Stamp 4 non FAM would be worth changing for us.

Stamp 4 EU Fam is better because it allows you to travel to many of Schengen countries without a visa.

Unfortunately, the Irish government doesn't give Stamp 4 EU Fam to Irish families - only to EU families living here. So if you were Polish, French or British, your wife could get it. Because you are Irish she can't. I have no idea why this is the rule, but it is.

Ordinary Stamp 4 isn't accepted for travel.

There is a loophole. If you have ever lived in another EU country and were officially resident there with your wife, and then move to Ireland, then Irish law counts you as an EU citizen and then your wife can get Stamp 4 EU Fam.

Crazy, but true.

Supercell wrote: »

How did you apply?

We filled out the usual form and put a covering letter making our case for Stamp 4 EU Fam. We also included about 1kg of documents proving our previous residency in the UK.

Zdenek79

Hi, i am citizen of Czech republic and my wife is from Mauritius.Living in Dublin - Ireland.We got married in Mauritius 2010, after that i musted proof all documents they required...(a lot!!!) and We applied for this visa in June 2010.Then they refused us, because I didn't updated them my new job.(the immigration officer has called to my old job, asking for me, if i really work there and how i am doing - and they didnt found me there :-( )
After that i appeal in which we explain everything and finally after 5 more months we got the 4EU FAM in June 2011.All together almost 1 year waiting.During the application being through - my wife had temporary stamp4(she could work full time).
Now is all ok - the new visa is valid for 5 years.
This visa is obviously for my wife coz she is non EU, but all the details you update depend on me, as on EU member.So be careful and update them all they need , even they ask you for your underwear size :-)))
Hope this note can be useful to someone....

ifms

It is correct that if you are Irish, you and your non-EU wife are living in Ireland currently and haven't been living in another EU country before, then your non-EU wife cannot get EU FAM.

As the officer in GNIB said, "Ireland does not agree nor accept EU Treaty Right".

I have to say, the non-EU spouses of EU citizens are not treated equally in Ireland as in other countries. Definitely double standards! (lots of examples)

You have to leave your home country in order to get your family travel in EU as freely as other EU couples. Absolutely ridiculous and stupid!

nodolan

I actually lodged a petition with the EU Parliament over this.

I quoted all the relevant treaties and EU directives, ECJ Rulings etc. and after over a year they finally replied to me a few weeks ago - it's a domestic issue. That was it.

Even travelling to another EU country and living there for six months (as I did) isn't enough - you must comply fully with EU Directive 2004/34/EC - you must be working full-time or be in a specified type of education etc. Ireland is one of (if not the) only EU countries that has such a narrow interpretation of EU Treaties/Directives etc. as many other countries have less stringent criteria.

ifms

After all, directive is not law that needs to be enforced. Even the Irish spouse gets EU FAM, it is not the case that "VISA EXEMPT" in every EU country. French embassy still needs a few documents to approve that you could travel to France without a visa. Same as Italy. It will never be the case that you can just wake up in the morning and decide to fly to any EU country with your spouse, even if she is holding EU FAM stamp.

Just be careful that before you travel to another EU country, check their visa policy first.

Steevy

ifms wrote: »

After all, directive is not law that needs to be enforced. Even the Irish spouse gets EU FAM, it is not the case that "VISA EXEMPT" in every EU country. French embassy still needs a few documents to approve that you could travel to France without a visa. Same as Italy. It will never be the case that you can just wake up in the morning and decide to fly to any EU country with your spouse, even if she is holding EU FAM stamp.

Just be careful that before you travel to another EU country, check their visa policy first.

I have no idea what you re trying to say. Ireland is strict with Irish Spouses Period!.. They cannot travel freely to other member states, they are not qualified for Free Fees in College, they will be deported once their marriage with Irish national have ended, marriage to an Irish citizen doesn't give them an entitlement to Citizenship etc etc... I can go on forever lol.

Whereas other member states recognise the importance of EU family members!

ifms

Actually, happen to read an interesting article:
http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/1/

ALI2020

Hi All,
I have the following questions, I would appreciate if you can kindly advice me on these;

My wife she is a EU national and I have applied for the EU1 residence card and my solicitor did not send them my wife's valid ID card copy and only send them passport expired copy. When I received the acknowledgement letter they did not give me temporary permission and asked me further documents.


My wife's valid passport all pages as they received the expired passport copy.

EU ID card

PRTB LETTER.

BUSINESS RECEIPTS

BANK STATEMENT.

Now we have sent them all the requested documents with EU ID card instead of passport as she did not apply for the new passport and after 2 weeks they sent me letter in which they written that they have received the documents and retain it in the file but still no temporary stamp letter.

My question is that will they send me temporary stamp or I will have to wait until January as they mentioned in the first letter that your decsion date is in January?

Thanks.

redcup342

ifms wrote: »

It is correct that if you are Irish, you and your non-EU wife are living in Ireland currently and haven't been living in another EU country before, then your non-EU wife cannot get EU FAM.

As the officer in GNIB said, "Ireland does not agree nor accept EU Treaty Right".

I have to say, the non-EU spouses of EU citizens are not treated equally in Ireland as in other countries. Definitely double standards! (lots of examples)

You have to leave your home country in order to get your family travel in EU as freely as other EU couples. Absolutely ridiculous and stupid!

That's the same in other countries also, it's only discrimination if one EU Citizen or resident is treated differently to another one.

4EUFAM has nothing to do with being Irish, you can apply for it if you are an EU Citizen.