Reduction of pay cuts for 600 top public sector workers

LittleLebowski

Apologies if already posted.

I read in the paper this morning that there was a vote in the Dail last night to reverse the government’s decision to reduce the pay cut for 600 top earners.
They took away bonuses and made out it was rightful pay and thus included it when calculating the cut.
This meant that your average clerical officer would take a 5% cut in the budget and a privileged few on €150,000 or more would only take a 3% cut.
The vote to reverse this clearly unfair decision was lost to the government 80 to 73 votes.
I hope there are more people out there as once again outraged as I am.
This country is a joke and the soon FF are out the better.
I can only hope what comes next won’t be worse.

gandalf

Surprised you missed this it was big news before Christmas. Its a disgrace tbh and the only reason I can see for it is that they want to keep the top civil servants onside for the unrest thats to come from the PS. I can understand why the low paid Public Servants feel they have been dealt with unfairly when you see actions like this.

LittleLebowski

I didn’t miss it before xmas but I nearly missed the vote last night. I would have thought it would be front page news but suprise suprise they managed to almost sneak it through as has become the norm with this Gov.
I can understand better than anyone as one of the lower paid public servants you speak of.

Nody

But is it REALLY a bonus if it always is paid out? The point being if their salary where (for sake of of this post) 150k + 50k bonus and the bonus was always paid out no matter what (in reality, not the on paper chance it would not) then in reality their salary is 200k and counting reduction from 200k would be correct.

The whole thing hinges on the "bonuses" if they where really not being paid out or if that was a snowball chance in hell kind of no pay out on them.

gandalf

In reality given the current dire straights we are all in bonuses should be frozen pending review anyway!

Dubh Geannain

deadtiger wrote: »

Surprised you missed this it was big news before Christmas.

It would have been bigger news if it didn't happen over the Christmas when the general population are less concerned about these kind of things.

The timing was sneaky IMO

LittleLebowski

Nody wrote: »

But is it REALLY a bonus if it always is paid out? The point being if their salary where (for sake of of this post) 150k + 50k bonus and the bonus was always paid out no matter what (in reality, not the on paper chance it would not) then in reality their salary is 200k and counting reduction from 200k would be correct.

The whole thing hinges on the "bonuses" if they where really not being paid out or if that was a snowball chance in hell kind of no pay out on them.

The definition of a bonus is money paid out for good work and not automatically paid.
If it was automatic then it wouldnt be called a bonus and there would be no issue in the first place.
I agree anyway that all moneys deemed to be a bonus should be stopped.

gandalf

LittleLebowski wrote: »

The definition of a bonus is money paid out for good work and not automatically paid.

Thats the normal definition.

If it was automatic then it wouldnt be called a bonus and there would be no issue in the first place.

Well its appears these guys get bonuses no matter how their people perform from reading the reports. Are there stats on the percentage of these officiers that get these bonuses? From reading the reports before Christmas it appeared that they just got them without any real doubt that the monies from them would be forthcoming.

LittleLebowski

deadtiger wrote: »

Thats the normal definition.



Well its appears these guys get bonuses no matter how their people perform from reading the reports. Are there stats on the percentage of these officiers that get these bonuses? From reading the reports before Christmas it appeared that they just got them without any real doubt that the monies from them would be forthcoming.

Well thats the problem!

Count Dooku

Those 600 civil servants are real rulers of country and it would be political suicide for any party to impose big cuts on them

Amhran Nua

Count Dooku wrote: »

Those 600 civil servants are real rulers of country and it would be political suicide for any party to impose big cuts on them

Time for a constitutional referendum then, it would seem.

ardmacha

As usual they messed up this one, they should have cut the salaries but reintroduced a genuine bonus scheme for real success to cutting expenditure.

RGS

Add this decision to the report that the dept of finance are considering paying the HSE executives 5.5% pay rise.

FF and their government lapdog the greens only care about the highly paid of this country.

gandalf

RGS wrote: »

Add this decision to the report that the dept of finance are considering paying the HSE executives 5.5% pay rise.

FF and their government lapdog the greens only care about the highly paid of this country.

Any source for that report?

Sleepy

ardmacha wrote: »

As usual they messed up this one, they should have cut the salaries but reintroduced a genuine bonus scheme for real success to cutting expenditure.

Perfect solution. Nobody can whinge about a salary cut if they're offered the difference back based on performance.

theg81der

It doesn`t matter how many times I hear this my blood boils.

LittleLebowski

theg81der wrote: »

It doesn`t matter how many times I hear this my blood boils.

Mine to but it seems thats all that will happen. For some reason this whole country seems to have lost its fighting spirit. People are outraged on a daily basis but nobody acts on their feelings.
It took the pensioners to show us what we have to do and thats prob because a few of them were alive in a time when we HAD to fight for what was right.
Since then its as if each generation has gotten more apathetic as its gone on.
Not that I have done anything but rant of course.

RGS

deadtiger wrote: »

Any source for that report?

Newspapers reports of the past few days.

However toays Irish Times suggest that the govt wont concede the rises due to the "negative publicity" over the pay cu U Turn for the top 600.

97i9y3941

if the gov had any balls they would do a maggie thatcher and let them strike,and if that doesnt work,replace them

LittleLebowski

Fred83 wrote: »

if the gov had any balls they would do a maggie thatcher and let them strike,and if that doesnt work,replace them

You should be banned for mentioning that bitch on this thread.

Obviously by that stupid statement you have no clue as to whats goin on in the real world.

RasTa

LittleLebowski wrote: »

You should be banned for mentioning that bitch on this thread.

Obviously by that stupid statement you have no clue as to whats goin on in the real world.

lol why, I know if I didn't answer the phone in work I would get fired. I have also got a pay rise and 2 bonus's last year all without the need of a union.

Sack the lot of them I say.

97i9y3941

RasTa wrote: »

lol why, I know if I didn't answer the phone in work I would get fired. I have also got a pay rise and 2 bonus's last year all without the need of a union.

Sack the lot of them I say.

true,seems to be a taboo subject if this sort of action is mentioned,people can say the service would go into anarchy if they went for an all out strike,but already people are experienceing an delay in med cards/passports etc due to this go slow process,the service must pay well enough if i havent heard one of them saying sod it im better off on the dole instead!.

LittleLebowski

RasTa wrote: »

lol why, I know if I didn't answer the phone in work I would get fired. I have also got a pay rise and 2 bonus's last year all without the need of a union.

Sack the lot of them I say.

The fact that you got 2 bonus's last year is exactly why you dont need to got on strike.
Try getting pay cut after pay cut with no bonus's ever.
You'll wont be so happy when this years budget hits the whole country with a tax hike.
That'll be the 3rd pay cut for a civil servant.

CityCentreMan

Why the surprise?????

Am I the only person that believes that "Yes Minister" is more fact than fiction!

Idbatterim

I seem to recall the reason that the Goverment back tracked on these reductions was because the 600 public servants in question appear to have already taken a hit! My question is what is fair? is one pay cut of 10% more fair than two pay cuts of 5%?

BroomBurner

Idbatterim wrote: »

I seem to recall the reason that the Goverment back tracked on these reductions was because the 600 public servants in question appear to have already taken a hit! My question is what is fair? is one pay cut of 10% more fair than two pay cuts of 5%?

The government backtracked because the top 600 were receiving performance related bonuses. It was awarded year after year to such an extent that people forgot what a bonus actually is. The bonus was stopped, understandably, and the top 600 felt it was then unfair to hit them more.

However, the lower grades have lost out on overtime, which was also widely available for pay in areas that needed it (as opposed to time-in-lieu). The government decided that it was ok for them to take the full cuts.

How in the hell is that fair?

Btw, I finally got a reply from the union on why they didn't take the opportunity to get the public onside by switching the campaign from reinstating full pay to all grades, to reinstating full cuts to all grades. :mad: Am totally sickened by the response.

changes

Its very sad to see the standard of people running the country.

The back tracking on the paycut for the top 600 could have the effect of bolstering those PS workers who already support industrial action and making those who were happy to move on think twice.

eigrod

BroomBurner wrote: »

The government backtracked because the top 600 were receiving performance related bonuses. It was awarded year after year to such an extent that people forgot what a bonus actually is. The bonus was stopped, understandably, and the top 600 felt it was then unfair to hit them more.

The 'bonus' was factored in, following lobbying by reps of the grade, as part of the overall salary for the pay reduction. Needless to say, over the previous 10 years, the bonus was not factored in when that grade received the same % increases as the lower grades.

I guess they need it to keep their holiday homes and to compensate for the share investments they made over the years but the lower paid don't need it to keep the roof over their heads and bread on the table.

SLUSK

Yup, keep giving those guys big salaries. Don't mind the huge budget deficits. Don't worry, it won't be long until Ireland becomes a third world country again.

LittleLebowski

The gap between the upper class and the lower class is only going to get bigger the longer this gov is in power.

Head The Wall

BroomBurner wrote: »

Btw, I finally got a reply from the union on why they didn't take the opportunity to get the public onside by switching the campaign from reinstating full pay to all grades, to reinstating full cuts to all grades. :mad: Am totally sickened by the response.

Let us know the response, whose side are the unions on?

BroomBurner

Head The Wall wrote: »

Let us know the response, whose side are the unions on?

The side of the Top 600.

A total waste of an opportunity to get the public onside. We could have united the public and private sector together to have the cuts reinstated.

I'm now between a rock and a hard place - angry at the union's lack of action, and angry at management for having the cheek to ask for their paycuts to be reduced, and to get it. What is the next step to take?

Riskymove

BroomBurner wrote: »

The side of the Top 600.

A total waste of an opportunity to get the public onside. We could have united the public and private sector together to have the cuts reinstated.

I'm now between a rock and a hard place - angry at the union's lack of action, and angry at management for having the cheek to ask for their paycuts to be reduced, and to get it. What is the next step to take?

tbf they are not really on their side but in the current scenario they can hardly support calling for further cuts for public sector workers given their own aim to reverse the cuts (no matter how unrealistic)

they are , in fact, very angry at what happened

if anything it showed that the Government understood that having top management onside is important as once they have them to answer their questions and give them info, it matters little if clerical staff are not answering their phones etc

Head The Wall

BroomBurner wrote: »

The side of the Top 600.

A total waste of an opportunity to get the public onside. We could have united the public and private sector together to have the cuts reinstated.

I'm now between a rock and a hard place - angry at the union's lack of action, and angry at management for having the cheek to ask for their paycuts to be reduced, and to get it. What is the next step to take?

It's time to start your own campaign against the union.

The Union should be focusing on trying to implement reforms to save money so there won't be as harsh cuts to wages again next year. The budget is less than 10 months away and interest rates are going to start rising

The pay cuts are not going to be reinstated not even if ye go on strike for the rest of the year. Anyone that thinks they will be reinstated is deluded, if I was you I would be cancelling my union subscription and sending that letter out to everyone else and the papers, by saying and doing nothing you are condoning the union to walk on the little people

MaceFace

And this is exactly the problem I pointed out last year here

Until the Union members start thinking for themselves and realise that in a recession, it is every man for himself, this continuing unfairness will continue.

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

The Union should be focusing on trying to implement reforms to save money so there won't be as harsh cuts to wages again next year. The budget is less than 10 months away and interest rates are going to start rising

The pay cuts are not going to be reinstated not even if ye go on strike for the rest of the year. Anyone that thinks they will be reinstated is deluded, if I was you I would be cancelling my union subscription and sending that letter out to everyone else and the papers, by saying and doing nothing you are condoning the union to walk on the little people

tbf most workers do not expect a reversal of the cuts and realise its mostly union postering.

The recent signals from the Unions about entering talks with Governemnt with the previously proposed reforms on the table is a sign of the reality of the situation

clarecoco

Over the past year or so the CPSU Union has voiced its anger at Government pay cuts and the seemingly unfairness of what has occurred. The Union represents about 12,000 lower-grade public sector workers. The CPSU represent Clerical Officers who after the cut earn between €22k and €37k and Staff Officers who earn between €37k and €44.

Salary scale Budget 2010 +Pension levy cuts
€0 - €15000 5% (exempt from pension levy)
€15001 - €20000 10% (includes 5% pension levy)
€20001 - €30000 15% (includes 10% pension levy)
€30000 - €60,000 18%( includes 10.5% pension levy)
€60000 - €70,000 18% (includes 10.5% pension levy)
€70,000 - 165,000 20.5% (includes 10.5% pension levy)
€165,000 - €200,000 22.5% (includes 10.5% pension levy)
€200,000 and above 25.5% (includes 10.5% pension levy)

In looking at those percentage figures the higher the individual's pay the higher percentage salary cut. I don't think anybody in the public sector, should feel they should be immune from the effects of the economic downturn irrespective of who caused it.

It is always easier to point the finger at somebody else: the bankers, the government, the developers, the regulators, the media. However, individuals who failed to exercise a form of personal restraint and accepted the global culture of easy credit throughout the last decade must also now take the pain.

rightwingdub

clarecoco wrote: »

Over the past year or so the CPSU Union has voiced its anger at Government pay cuts and the seemingly unfairness of what has occurred. The Union represents about 12,000 lower-grade public sector workers. The CPSU represent Clerical Officers who after the cut earn between €22k and €37k and Staff Officers who earn between €37k and €44.

Salary scale Budget 2010 +Pension levy cuts
€0 - €15000 5% (exempt from pension levy)
€15001 - €20000 10% (includes 5% pension levy)
€20001 - €30000 15% (includes 10% pension levy)
€30000 - €60,000 18%( includes 10.5% pension levy)
€60000 - €70,000 18% (includes 10.5% pension levy)
€70,000 - 165,000 20.5% (includes 10.5% pension levy)
€165,000 - €200,000 22.5% (includes 10.5% pension levy)
€200,000 and above 25.5% (includes 10.5% pension levy)

In looking at those percentage figures the higher the individual's pay the higher percentage salary cut. I don't think anybody in the public sector, should feel they should be immune from the effects of the economic downturn irrespective of who caused it.

It is always easier to point the finger at somebody else: the bankers, the government, the developers, the regulators, the media. However, individuals who failed to exercise a form of personal restraint and accepted the global culture of easy credit throughout the last decade must also now take the pain.

Public sector workers are completly out of touch with reality, I actually wish the IMF would take over this corrupt country and teach our politicians how to run a country.