New Rule - Dealer Mucks Cards (Big Slick Rule Change)Opinions Please

BIG-SLICK-POKER

If the dealer takes the cards of a player who has bet or is involved in action that is all in ,The tournment director at all Big Slick events will make a judgement in the interest of fair play towards the player who has done nothing wrong . I am sick of seeing players eliminated from tournaments or being penalised andthey have done anything wrong . I know players should protect there cards but Dealers get tired and swipe the cards .

There is a 2nd reason to this that a dealer could collude, if they know another player at the table in teh hand and take in the cards knowing that the hand is dead and the player is out .

My ruling will now be if a Dealer takes the cards of player who has raised or is all in the intial Big Blind will have to stay in and the all in or raise will be alowed to be taken back at the tournaments directors checking of play.

This rule is in the interest of the game and Fair play and can only be called into play if it is 100% a dealers mistake .I am going to trial run this in the Ladbrokes tour and see how it goes before i introduce it into any european ranking event that we run..

Please note that if cards are taken and no action has taken place then teh cards are dead and cannot be retrieved .

Regards

Neill Kelly

Four of a kind

Just wondering Neill, what if say the dealer swipes the cards into the muck and the player know's he had say AK but doesn't know what suit, how will this factor into this rule change?

Carlo

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Four of a kind wrote: »

Just wondering Neill, what if say the dealer swipes the cards into the muck and the player know's he had say AK but doesn't know what suit, how will this factor into this rule change?

Carlo

Im killing the hand but not penalising the players chips if it was not there mistake . At no stage will cards be retrieved from the muck even if they know.

The Blind will stay in but any further action can be taken back in the fairness of the game .. This will only come into play if the cards have been taken by the dealer and the player was in no way at fault

Neill

Four of a kind

Good rule. Nice one.

pkr_ennis

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

If the dealer takes the cards of a player who has bet or is involved in action that is all in ,The tournment director at all Big Slick events will make a judgement in the interest of fair play towards the player who has done nothing wrong .

There is a 2nd reason to this that a dealer could collude, if they know another player at the table in teh hand and take in the cards knowing that the hand is dead and the player is out .

This rule is in the interest of the game and Fair play and can only be called into play if it is 100% a dealers mistake .

The player automatically does something wrong when he doesn't protect his hand obv. It's the rules of poker... like schoolboy rules, like the first rule everyone learns.

If there is an all-in situation then surely the player will turn his hand face up and therefore has tabled his hand so it can't be killed even if the dealer takes his cards away and shoves them into the muck.

If the dealer is in cahoots with another player then there are many problems, with this situation being one of the least. And if you do your job as a player of PROTECTING YOUR HAND then the dealer will not be able to get your cards anyway. It is true that this could be happening, but rarely, and imho not often enough to waive the protect your own hand rule.
Essencially you are punishing the other player in the pot for doing nothing wrong by taking action back out of the pot that he has earned somewhere along the way with his previous play.

If this is the rule, how about this for an angle. The dealer is in cahoots with player A-
Player A pushes all-in (bluffing) player B with the nuts calls, player A signals to dealer to swipe cards, which he does with aplomb. Your 'TD' then comes over and awards the money back to player A Make any sense to you????

It's not about dealer mistake, it's about player mistake ldo.

IMHO, your post above brings into question your ability to run high stakes poker games.

Mathew Curley.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

All makes sense but take it like in Killarney Cards are protected by a card guard and dealer swipes ur cards and ur all in and the next jump is €3000 Do i say ur hand is dead due to teh dealers mistake or try come to a solution in teh fairness of the game .

In my own opinion i thgink help the player who has not done anything wrong and come to a sensible desicion and we will trial run this for or Ladbrokes Tour and see how it goes

Neill

pkr_ennis

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

Cards are protected by a card guard and dealer swipes ur cards and ur all in and the next jump is €3000 Do i say ur hand is dead due to teh dealers mistake or try come to a solution in teh fairness of the game .

In my own opinion i thgink help the player who has not done anything wrong and come to a sensible desicion and we will trial run this for or Ladbrokes Tour and see how it goes

Neill

Good luck with your trial run Neill.

I will say this though, In the WSOP main event final table you are expected to protect your own hand. And if you don't have a hand (dealer sweeps away your cards etc), then your hand is dead and the action that is in the pot is gone to the last player with a 'live' hand. I guarantee this would be the ruling made there.

In relation to the fairness of the game, the dude with a hand knows the other guys hand is dead. How fair would it be on him for your TD to give back a load of tournament equity to the guy who got sloppy, whilst he has been protecting his own hand all tournament long. One element to tournament poker is endurance, and good endurance should be awarded, and often is, usually by not tilting, making good decisions for longer periods and hence, making the money. If you insist on trial running this new rule, I suggest you go no further than asking the player with a hand if he will give the other guy his last bet back or something of the sort. Remember, to run good poker games, consistency is key. Favoritism, which is rife in these large events (Neil Channing incident for example, thread here http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055721769&highlight=neil+channing ) has to be eliminated in the interest of the fairness of the game. I wonder was the guy who's cards went missing famous or a known face on the cicuit?

A note about card protectors and the like, these ornaments on the table do not magically protect your hand, YOU as a player protect your hand. This rule is so tangible. You just have to do it yourself, you literally have to hold your cards in your hand until the dealer pushes you the pot. This is the only way to fully protect your interest in the pot.

I understand from your post above that there has been some kind of incident for big money. Tbh my opinion is that if a player is playing for big money he should know the rules. However-

What is the dealer doing here? Who trained him? Was he drunk or stoned? I know this happens a lot at festivals. Was he chatting to someone? When there is big money on the line the dealers have to be competent, and they have to concentrate. It's not good enough anymore in Ireland to have weak dealers. We've come a long way in poker terms over the last 5/6 years. Those first years were full of cowboy promoters (the reason you never see me at one of these events) and cowboy dealers. I know because I've been in the Casino Industry for 15 years and have been involved in card rooms for as long, I'm time served if you like. IMHO it's time to put a more proffessional crew of staff together, look at Thomas Kremser's crew, they're savage! Rarely do you hear of a major misdemeanor from a dealer at an EPT.

KITN for the dealer who took a mans cards and killed them whilst he was all-in, what a donkey. He/She should forfeit any chance of coming back to another event to earn money. It just isn't good enough. Dealers go there to earn money, I suggest you make them do their jobs properly. If they go there for a good time, suggest going to a rave or something of the like, instead of making a show of an important high stakes poker event.

Rant over,

C

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Have to say its not a rant and i appreciate your reply as its well written and represents some very good points . I know u think this is just one incident but it happens so much on seat 10 and 1 per event . I was called almost 10 times in Killarney and again in Clonmel this week and wvery event it comes up . Its just a simple mistake from the dealer and of course i will monitor it to see how it goes .

Really is a great response and im at this now six years and this is the only rule that keeps cropping up . I am going to use this in teh tour before i bring it to a european ranking event and im sure i will have to tweak it . But in the interest of the players i want to find a solution .

Your point about the dealers they are not machines and the majority of our dealers are top class but long shifts come into it and tiredness and mistakes will happen but u dont just sack them for the mistake u look to resolving the problem for both parties interests

Regards

Neill

pkr_ennis

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

Your point about the dealers they are not machines and the majority of our dealers are top class but long shifts come into it and tiredness and mistakes will happen but u dont just sack them for the mistake u look to resolving the problem for both parties interests

I was a bit harsh on the dealers there alright. I don't have experience in running long events, so I shouldn't comment really. I guess this was the ranty part.

I'm very happy you took something from my post as it took ages to write lol. Thanks for the kind words and let us know how you get on with your experiment, as we all need to keep improving our poker games.

Good Luck,

C

kakak1

IMO I think this is an excellent idea & I hope it works.

Mathew you do make some valid points but you keep quoting the "Rules".

Just to let you know there are no fcuking set of standard rules in the game of poker & this is the problem.

Also you seem to think we have robots dealing, there will always be human error especially after about 3/4 days dealing.

This idea of winning on technicalities imo is a load of sh1te, no matter what the stakes there has to be fairness applied. I have seen good dealers stretch across the full length of a table to take someones cards in error, it happens but lets try to be fair when it does.

I thought this was introduced anyway in Clonmel ...:D.:D

BIG-SLICK-POKER

pkr_ennis wrote: »

I was a bit harsh on the dealers there alright. I don't have experience in running long events, so I shouldn't comment really. I guess this was the ranty part.

I'm very happy you took something from my post as it took ages to write lol. Thanks for the kind words and let us know how you get on with your experiment, as we all need to keep improving our poker games.

Good Luck,

C

Thats what forums are for and ur points were well written a lil harsh here and there but i take it all on board and if it does not work i take it out of play and say it did not work due to the reasons that i will have after before i put it into play in a major tournament ..

Thanks again

Neill K

Four of a kind

Mathew makes a few good points. But I also see your side Neill. It has to be tough running these long events like you do, and to see the same problem arising day in day out.

It would be great for a universal set of rules to be drawn up by yourself, JP, Steven(poker Ireland) and the other major organisers in Ireland so that it can set some standard for us smaller outfits to colaborate with. Speaking of which, did anthing come about that meeting in Sept regarding an Irish set of standard rules Neill?

Only last w.end I made a ruling regarding a player having to showdown a hand, only for the player to turn around and state "big slick events" has a different ruling. Thread here btw.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055816031

So it would be very beneficial for the likes of organisers like myself to follow same rule's as best as possible as the likes of Big slick and JP poker etc..

Carlo

connie147

Four of a kind wrote: »

Mathew makes a few good points. But I also see your side Neill. It has to be tough running these long events like you do, and to see the same problem arising day in day out.

It would be great for a universal set of rules to be drawn up by yourself, JP, Steven(poker Ireland) and the other major organisers in Ireland so that it can set some standard for us smaller outfits to colaborate with. Speaking of which, did anthing come about that meeting in Sept regarding an Irish set of standard rules Neill?

Only last w.end I made a ruling regarding a player having to showdown a hand, only for the player to turn around and state "big slick events" has a different ruling. Thread here btw.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055816031

So it would be very beneficial for the likes of organisers like myself to follow same rule's as best as possible as the likes of Big slick and JP poker etc..

Carlo

yes, we did have a very enthusiastic and informative meeting on rules. Some of Irelands top td's were then asked to go and meet seperately and try to draw up a set of rules we could all work off. As far as i know, this is still ongoing (in fairness, its a tough job and wont be done in 1 meeting). Like yourself, I await the final results.

Neil,
I understand where your coming from, but we must still keep the onus on the player to protect his hand. thats one of the 1st rules we all learnt in poker, and its also the main rule we teach newbies in the club.
Rather than change rules right now in experimental fashion, would you not agree to wait for the findings of the rules body we put together? I know you just want to be fair about things, nobodys questioning that, but changing rules right now as we are awaiting news from stephen and the lads on that rules revision might not be the way to go.

Why not give Steven a ring to see how things are progressing?

Connie

DonkeyPokerTour

Big Slick

Can you clarify what happens under these two situations:
Situation 1: Blinds 1000-2000
UTG Raises to 6000. Cut Off Pushes all in for 25k. Before UTG gets a chance to act its realized that Cut Off's cards have been taken by the dealer. What happens under your rule? Does Cut Off lose 1BB or 6k?

Situation 2: Blinds 1000-2000
UTG Shoves all in for 20k. UTG +2 calls. Rest fold. UTG now realizes that his cards have been taken. What happens under your rule? 1BB or All in?

I've given my opinions below:

Situation 1:
The player should lose 6k, the amount he called but his remaining 19k should be returned.
Situation 2:
The player should be all in and playing the board. If he draws attention to the fact that he has not got a hand before being called, then penalize 1BB, but since someone else has already called I think its only fair to rule him all in.

connie147

Hi neil,
Ive been thinking about this again since.
I think that what you are thinking of doing could lead to a situation where an angleshoot is more than possible.

Example
Player x sitting in seat 10, and say he's utg+2. Shoves all in when its folded to him.
Player y calls in seat 1. Dealer carries on, asking the rest of the table are they calling or folding.
Player x, having shoved with a bag of spanners, slips his cards into the muck without anybody seeing (more than possible in seat 10), knowing that under the new rules, he will get his chips back minus a BB. Its a scenario thats more than possible, do you not think?

I do agree with you that it is very unfair on a player to suffer because of dealer mistake, but sometimes, you have to take your medicine. It definately needs some more thought.

span

connie147 wrote: »

Example
Player x sitting in seat 10, and say he's utg+2. Shoves all in when its folded to him.
Player y calls in seat 1. Dealer carries on, asking the rest of the table are they calling or folding.
Player x, having shoved with a bag of spanners, slips his cards into the muck without anybody seeing (more than possible in seat 10), knowing that under the new rules, he will get his chips back minus a BB. Its a scenario thats more than possible, do you not think?

This should be quite difficult to do if the dealer keeps the muck neatly square (which they should do).

carfax

Hi Guys,

Just to let you know the lads are almost finished with regards to publishing a set of unified rules for the whole of Ireland.

I really hope as many TD's as possible take it on board as it will cut out a lot of misunderstandings around the country.

They should be published and available for all to see in early March.

Stephen.

P.S. I used to be very much where you are on this issue Neill, but having listened to all the top TD's this country has to offer at numerous meetings, I have been 110% converted to Matthew Curley's approach (unified Irish rules are still to be clarified and confirmed, this is just my opinion after thrashing this out an awful lot).

BIG-SLICK-POKER

The rules being issued ill be in full agreement but this one i will trial and see how it goes . In my own personal experience players should protect there cards but seat 9 and seat 1 are in a direct disadvantage to this rule and this is 99% of the time the seats where the error occurs . I do not think a player should be penalised for a staff members mistake if anything it shoudl be the other way around for not being fully aware of the table .

I agree that mistakes happen with Dealers on long shifts at events but as the Tournament Director i am trying to ensure that the players are protected from mistakes from our staff members at all times and also in the fairness of the game . I have had this happen to players with there cards protected and the dealer still siped them so if we say u must protect your cards at al times this is still open to problems as the hand is still dead if they were protected and taken in.

I will let u know how the first 8 events of our tour go and relay any feedback that is given on our rule change . Hopefully it wont happen to much .

All comments and feedback appreciated

Neill Kelly