Employment law

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

My girlfriend rang in sick today, she's just run down. Her teamleader said that she needed a sick cert for today. It is stated in her contract that she is allowed 15 sick days in a year. She has had 10 sick days I think. Her colleague sent her a text today saying that after she got off the phone with her team leader, the team leader rang HR and was making arangments for my girlfriend not to get paid for today. Where does she stand legally?

She works fulltime, and has been with this company for over a year.

Second problem.

This team leader makes up his own rules as he goes along, since they are all foreign, they don't understand Irish law and just go along with it.

There have been incidents in the past, about an hour or two before end of shift, the team leader said they "have" to work overtime, they are obliged to do so.

She was told she brought down the whole team spirit by her manager and this was said in front of all team leaders because she refused to paint a christmas theme for the company in the canteen for free and in her own time. That to me is bullying. She paints murials and the likes and charges people. She does portraits and all that, so she was charging the company for her services.

I think there could be a case of constructive dismissal, I am not 100% sure. There are plenty of times she has been abused and mistreated but she doesn't understand Irish law. The company is American. How would one even start about building this case?

Thanks in advance.

darragh666

Have your girlfriend talk to HR. That would the easiest place to start.

djk1000

Before talking to HR, keep a diary of each thing that happens. Write a brief, accurate account of each incident as soon as possible, write down dates and times. Keep anything that she is given in writing.

Then talk to HR.

pirelli

Saige Full Flamingo wrote: »

My girlfriend rang in sick today, she's just run down. Her teamleader said that she needed a sick cert for today. It is stated in her contract that she is allowed 15 sick days in a year. She has had 10 sick days I think. Her colleague sent her a text today saying that after she got off the phone with her team leader, the team leader rang HR and was making arangments for my girlfriend not to get paid for today. Where does she stand legally?

She works fulltime, and has been with this company for over a year.

Second problem.

This team leader makes up his own rules as he goes along, since they are all foreign, they don't understand Irish law and just go along with it.

There have been incidents in the past, about an hour or two before end of shift, the team leader said they "have" to work overtime, they are obliged to do so.

She was told she brought down the whole team spirit by her manager and this was said in front of all team leaders because she refused to paint a christmas theme for the company in the canteen for free and in her own time. That to me is bullying. She paints murials and the likes and charges people. She does portraits and all that, so she was charging the company for her services.

I think there could be a case of constructive dismissal, I am not 100% sure. There are plenty of times she has been abused and mistreated but she doesn't understand Irish law. The company is American. How would one even start about building this case?

Thanks in advance.

The christmas theme does appear to be an issue and she should follow up and if there is any changes to her employment because of this then you might have a case for constructive dismissal. Although constructive dismissal is usually harder to prove then unfair dismissal and most notably the employee has to prove contructive dismissal whereas the employer doesn't really have to do anything. Whereas in unfair dismissal the employer must prove/show they didn't unfairly dismiss.


I know its usually only after 3 days absence that a doctors cert is required and that information should be available in the companies sick leave policy.
Ten days sick leave is a double digit number for one employee who has only been with the company for one year.

I would check the companies policies before just leaving and you must explain your issues to the company before storming out the door otherwise your constructive dismissal will fail at the starting line. The company must know of your distress and illness etc..

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

darragh666 wrote: »

Have your girlfriend talk to HR. That would the easiest place to start.

Thanks daragh, nope not yet, I will ask her to do that tomorrow.

Am I right in saying that you need to be out of work for more than two days to produce a sick cert? To order her to go to the doctors for the cert is unreal. No doctor is going to take her with that little notice anyway.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

pirelli wrote: »

The christmas theme does appear to be an issue and she should follow up and if there is any changes to her employment because of this then you might have a case for constructive dismissal. Although constructive dismissal is usually harder to prove then unfair dismissal and most notably the employee has to prove contructive dismissal whereas the employer doesn't really have to do anything. Whereas in unfair dismissal the employer must prove/show they didn't unfairly dismiss.


I know its usually only after 3 days absence that a doctors cert is required and that information should be available in the companies sick leave policy.
Ten days sick leave is a double digit number for one employee who has only been with the company for one year.

I would check the companies policies before just leaving and you must explain your issues to the company before storming out the door otherwise your constructive dismissal will fail at the starting line. The company must know of your distress and illness etc..

She was piloting a scheme in her job, not too sure what it is. That's the same. She was told that she was being nominated for some promotion thing, to be trained as a team leader, after christmas that was taken away from her with no real reason.

The pay rise was only 1%. Her work is double that of the next best, She is expected to do an average of 50 contacts a day (dealing with emails faxes and phone calls) She gets an average of 150 a day, and peaks at about 200. Other people on her team get around 20 - 40. She's a great worker but they abuse her so badly.

She has handed in her notice already as she got a job for 6K more. The thing is, I don't like anybody screwing anybody else over for no reason. They want to deduct her pay for being sick today, but that's against their policy. I want to know if it is against the law.

I mean, the team leader chalanged her because her average was way low in august and march of last year. She took two weeks holidays in both of those months and that thick gombeen didn't take it into account. She told him she was on holidays and he stood his ground. I mean, wtf?

HR are useless in there. They work together with the managers and team leaders. They are biased bigots.

pirelli

Saige Full Flamingo wrote: »

She was piloting a scheme in her job, not too sure what it is. That's the same. She was told that she was being nominated for some promotion thing, to be trained as a team leader, after christmas that was taken away from her with no real reason.

The pay rise was only 1%. Her work is double that of the next best, She is expected to do an average of 50 contacts a day (dealing with emails faxes and phone calls) She gets an average of 150 a day, and peaks at about 200. Other people on her team get around 20 - 40. She's a great worker but they abuse her so badly.

She has handed in her notice already as she got a job for 6K more. The thing is, I don't like anybody screwing anybody else over for no reason. They want to deduct her pay for being sick today, but that's against their policy. I want to know if it is against the law.

I mean, the team leader chalanged her because her average was way low in august and march of last year. She took two weeks holidays in both of those months and that thick gombeen didn't take it into account. She told him she was on holidays and he stood his ground. I mean, wtf?

HR are useless in there. They work together with the managers and team leaders. They are biased bigots.

Teamleader sounds bullish challenging her on something like averages over a holdiay period sounds like asn instance of bullying or a sloppy error on the part of the teamleader.

I was just reading up on constructive dismissal and some english cases.
There must be conduct of the employer towards the employee and that conduct must amount to a repudiatory breach of contract of employment

Which repudiation is accepted by the employee and the employee resigns in response to such repudiatry conduct within a resonable time without affriming that breach and the employee complies with the statutory greivance procedure.

To interpret this into irish terms she must take her issues to the company first.


If she has handed in her notice i do not think she was constructively dismissed because her job description was never changed and she didn't use the grievance procedure first on an issue which may well be within the contract that was you heard that her teamleader was going to deduct wages through a text message from a friend!


I would seek legal advice.
FLAC which offers free legal advice.
http://www.flac.ie/

steph1

I doubt very much that she would be entitled to 10 sick days in a year. I know a friend who is in the civil service and they are allowed to take 7 uncertified sick days in one year and in some cases they will get a warning letter if they are getting near to taking that amount.
Most employments will require you to produce a medical cert on the third day of absence.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

steph1 wrote: »

I doubt very much that she would be entitled to 10 sick days in a year. I know a friend who is in the civil service and they are allowed to take 7 uncertified sick days in one year and in some cases they will get a warning letter if they are getting near to taking that amount.
Most employments will require you to produce a medical cert on the third day of absence.

You doubt do you? Based on your friend only having 7 sick days? Everyone who works has only 7 sick days? Seriously...

I said she, as stated in her contract, is entitled to 15 paid sick days off a year, she currently has 10 sick days, which, by her contract, leaves her with 5 paid sick days left. By law I think you are entitled to 3 paid sick days off a year, and the rest is company policy.

Thanks for the info pirelli, but she's not interested too much in the constructive dismissal part, she's leaving anyway. She is more worried about taking a sick day off and her team leader making yet another stupid mistake just "to get her back". When she is not working, holidays/sick, they have a hard time, the team leader is put under pressure because the rest of the team are useless. Not her fault I know, but it seems like she gets punished or a bollocking if she is out sick, which is wrong in my opinion.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Update:

One of my girlfriends team members was fired today, he was supposed to give an exit interview that allows him to express his feelings and where things went wrong with the company. He was not allowed to do this, he was told to leave the company immediately and was not allowed to talk to anybody about it. A "negative attitude" was the reason he got fired.

This is the type of thing I tried explaining earlier, these people do not work the same as normal companies do, the teamleaders and the HR work together. A few lies were told to the manager to get rid of this guy. He was leaving in two weeks and is getting paid for those two weeks. He was not able to give his side of the story or no real evidence has been produced.

This is why I want to know, if my girlfriend is entitled to get paid for the days she is sick. When it states in her contract she has 15 days a year sick pay, and she only took off 10 of those days. The team leader, in front of the rest of the team, mentioned "I am going to make sure she doesn't get paid for the time she has taken off sick"...

What is her legal stance?

pirelli

Saige Full Flamingo wrote: »

Update:

One of my girlfriends team members was fired today, he was supposed to give an exit interview that allows him to express his feelings and where things went wrong with the company. He was not allowed to do this, he was told to leave the company immediately and was not allowed to talk to anybody about it. A "negative attitude" was the reason he got fired.

This is the type of thing I tried explaining earlier, these people do not work the same as normal companies do, the teamleaders and the HR work together. A few lies were told to the manager to get rid of this guy. He was leaving in two weeks and is getting paid for those two weeks. He was not able to give his side of the story or no real evidence has been produced.

This is why I want to know, if my girlfriend is entitled to get paid for the days she is sick. When it states in her contract she has 15 days a year sick pay, and she only took off 10 of those days. The team leader, in front of the rest of the team, mentioned "I am going to make sure she doesn't get paid for the time she has taken off sick"...

What is her legal stance?

Any absence over and above the statutory standard is payable at the discretion of the company as long as the amount paid is above the minimum industrial wage. Therefore after 10 days sick leave the team leader might very well be entitled to deduct an amount from her wages.

It comes back to the sick leave policy and what the agreement is and it should answer your question. Failing that you could work some other way to highlight the corrupt practices between managment and Human resources etc.
.

They sound like bastards for sacking somone for a negative attitude and then denying him the exit interview. It sounds typical.
Some USA corporates here have become a breeding ground for the domestic workers to play CIA head games with their subordinates

Omiatari

Saige Full Flamingo wrote: »

Update:

One of my girlfriends team members was fired today, he was supposed to give an exit interview that allows him to express his feelings and where things went wrong with the company. He was not allowed to do this, he was told to leave the company immediately and was not allowed to talk to anybody about it. A "negative attitude" was the reason he got fired.

This is the type of thing I tried explaining earlier, these people do not work the same as normal companies do, the teamleaders and the HR work together. A few lies were told to the manager to get rid of this guy. He was leaving in two weeks and is getting paid for those two weeks. He was not able to give his side of the story or no real evidence has been produced.

This is why I want to know, if my girlfriend is entitled to get paid for the days she is sick. When it states in her contract she has 15 days a year sick pay, and she only took off 10 of those days. The team leader, in front of the rest of the team, mentioned "I am going to make sure she doesn't get paid for the time she has taken off sick"...

What is her legal stance?

update about this bit.

Colleague got a new job, doesn't need to finish his notice in the old place, the manager guaranteed him that the new job was free to contact her for a good reference.
They did and she gave him a horrible one, that he was by attitude the worst employee, she would never hire him again and all that jazz.
now the new job is doubting the offer they made him and are thinking of withdrawing it, unless he can state that this is indeed a case of bullying.

comments please?
besides that its a pretty bitch thing to do, saying you will give a good ref and then drag you trough the dirt, i asumed it was illegal to give a bad ref?

helimachoptor

10 sick days in a month and a half??

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

helimachoptor wrote: »

10 sick days in a month and a half??

What's your point? People get sick, and if you have nothing to say on the matter other than judge people, then piss off...

pirelli

Omiatari wrote: »

update about this bit.

Colleague got a new job, doesn't need to finish his notice in the old place, the manager guaranteed him that the new job was free to contact her for a good reference.
They did and she gave him a horrible one, that he was by attitude the worst employee, she would never hire him again and all that jazz.
now the new job is doubting the offer they made him and are thinking of withdrawing it, unless he can state that this is indeed a case of bullying.

comments please?
besides that its a pretty bitch thing to do, saying you will give a good ref and then drag you trough the dirt, i asumed it was illegal to give a bad ref?

I remember something about this type of behaviour while reading up on defamation. It is defamatory if written but was the contact made by the employer offering you a job through a phonecall or was it written.

If it was written then he/she could easily sue for defamation and they would have to prove their case which if untrue would be risky.

If it was over the telephone then i am unsure what you could do and i doubt your new employer after withdrawing their offer will be honourable enough to act as a witness. They would be a star witness if they did as it would a slap dunk case for proving damage.

djk1000

pirelli wrote: »

I remember something about this type of behaviour while reading up on defamation. It is defamatory if written but was the contact made by the employer offering you a job through a phonecall or was it written.

If it was written then he/she could easily sue for defamation and they would have to prove their case which if untrue would be risky.

If it was over the telephone then i am unsure what you could do and i doubt your new employer after withdrawing their offer will be honourable enough to act as a witness. They would be a star witness if they did as it would a slap dunk case for proving damage.

It was over the phone, so it is slander. If someone says something about you, they have to be able to prove it is true or they can be sued.

I've been an employer and only a complete and utter moron gives a bad reference like that. If someone wasn't a good employee, you stick to the facts about date started, date finished, number of days late and sick etc, no opinion at all in the reference because you can be sued and the burden of proof is on the employer, not the employee.

pirelli

djk1000 wrote: »

It was over the phone, so it is slander. If someone says something about you, they have to be able to prove it is true or they can be sued.

I've been an employer and only a complete and utter moron gives a bad reference like that. If someone wasn't a good employee, you stick to the facts about date started, date finished, number of days late and sick etc, no opinion at all in the reference because you can be sued and the burden of proof is on the employer, not the employee.

I agree but they are unlikely to act as witness. The person that commits slander might be a moron but the odds are in there favour. There are so many hurdles for a plaintiff to get over to feel confident about winning. Slander is much harder to prove than defamation.

bernyh

helimachoptor wrote: »

10 sick days in a month and a half??

Actually totally possible, I've had a really bad flu since beginning of January, took 2 days sick that week, still didn't clear, 2 days the next week, still couldn't clear it. Then this week I just couldn't take it anymore I had a really bad cough that was being badly affected by the dry air in the job from the aircon, went to the doc's who signed me off for a week as I had developed an infection in my trachea from the coughing which was indeed being made worse from the air conditioning......

Total of 11 days sick this year!!! Not good since I had a clear record last year, but unfortunately these things happen!

I think that your gf was very lucky to get out of that job and should probably "chalk it up to experience".

Berny

bernyh

Omiatari wrote: »

update about this bit.

Colleague got a new job, doesn't need to finish his notice in the old place, the manager guaranteed him that the new job was free to contact her for a good reference.
They did and she gave him a horrible one, that he was by attitude the worst employee, she would never hire him again and all that jazz.
now the new job is doubting the offer they made him and are thinking of withdrawing it, unless he can state that this is indeed a case of bullying.

comments please?
besides that its a pretty bitch thing to do, saying you will give a good ref and then drag you trough the dirt, i asumed it was illegal to give a bad ref?

As far as I am led to believe (open to correction) that you cannot look for a telephone reference for an employee anymore, and the only real questions a company can ask is

Did Mr A work for you?
Did Mr A work for you from A-B years?
How was Mr A's attendance/timekeeping?
Would you employee Mr A again?

As I say open to correction, but worked in a co (2 years ago) where I had to hire peeps and was told that this was the only questions I was allowed to ask via written correspondance and was NEVER allowed to call for a ref

twowheelsonly

Saige Full Flamingo wrote: »

You doubt do you? Based on your friend only having 7 sick days? Everyone who works has only 7 sick days? Seriously...

I said she, as stated in her contract, is entitled to 15 paid sick days off a year, she currently has 10 sick days, which, by her contract, leaves her with 5 paid sick days left. By law I think you are entitled to 3 paid sick days off a year, and the rest is company policy.

Thanks for the info pirelli, but she's not interested too much in the constructive dismissal part, she's leaving anyway. She is more worried about taking a sick day off and her team leader making yet another stupid mistake just "to get her back". When she is not working, holidays/sick, they have a hard time, the team leader is put under pressure because the rest of the team are useless. Not her fault I know, but it seems like she gets punished or a bollocking if she is out sick, which is wrong in my opinion.

By the sounds of things she's probably better off out of there anyway.

On the sick issue - 3 days without a cert is the norm, anything after that is more a privilege than an entitlement. Does her contract state whether or not these days have to be certified or if it is 15 uncertified days? Sounds pretty high to me in fairness.
Chances are that the company has the right ro rescind the right to 'free' sick days unfortunately.

Overall it just sounds like a personality clash with her 'Team Leader' (Hate that term and all these other Americanisms that have creeped in the past few years)

helimachoptor

Saige Full Flamingo wrote: »

What's your point? People get sick, and if you have nothing to say on the matter other than judge people, then piss off...

Cool your jets tiger, if I had an employee take 10 days off work in 6 weeks you'd be damn sure I'd be asking for a sick cert.

You say she's run down, presuming she works a mon-fri job, thats 30 working days(up til last Friday) and she's taken 10 of them off! Ridiculous, if it was a serious illness either Monday or before and this was explained to the company then they are out of line, but if she's taking time off course she's tired/under the weather, its a ridiculous excuse imo.

I work 8-4:30 3 days a week then I drive an hour to college and am there 6-10, the other 2 week nights I'm in work from half 8-6 then doing assignments/studying, am i run down, is half the country run down!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

helimachoptor wrote: »

Cool your jets tiger, if I had an employee take 10 days off work in 6 weeks you'd be damn sure I'd be asking for a sick cert.

You say she's run down, presuming she works a mon-fri job, thats 30 working days(up til last Friday) and she's taken 10 of them off! Ridiculous, if it was a serious illness either Monday or before and this was explained to the company then they are out of line, but if she's taking time off course she's tired/under the weather, its a ridiculous excuse imo.

I work 8-4:30 3 days a week then I drive an hour to college and am there 6-10, the other 2 week nights I'm in work from half 8-6 then doing assignments/studying, am i run down, is half the country run down!

What do you want, a medal? What exactly are you adding to this discussion apart from your massive ego? If you don't have anything constructive to say, then piss off... it's simple.

This is not a discussion about morals, principles or how long my girlfriend has been sick. I am here to seek advice. You opinion doesn't matter a damn to me. She has a sick cert for the days she was sick.

You obviously didn't read the thread at all. Go back, like a good chap and read it properly. PM me if you need help with it.

As for all the other posts, thank you very much. We appretiate all the information provided. Going to push the guy that got fired and recieved the bad reference to get a solicitor and take things further. The company which he had got an offer from have withdrew that offer today.

drkpower

Being entitled to a certain umber of 'sick days' as per ypour contract does not necessarily entitle you to take days off for non-sickness, such as being 'run down'. It sounds like the company involved hasnt handles this at all well, sure, but they are usually entitled to have a company doctor examine and certify if they suspect that sick days are being taken when not justified.

Which sounds like the case here.