Mental Health and special needs in Ireland

Laminations

In the past week I've heard some of the consequences of the cuts in special needs assistants and the total lack of investment in mental health service provision.

Watch John Moloneys responses on Primetime. He literally has no excuse! Its frankly a disgrace that he is making promises now with all of the broken ones he made (when the country had money) in his wake.

This is yet another example of this government attacking the most vunerable. Does anyone know of any cuts in the Dept. of Education or the many many umbrealla bodies it has? The NCSE sounds very much like another quango with a set aim to further disadvantage some of the most disadvantaged kids in this society.

And to top it all off, their great plan to fund 'A vision for Change' involves property sales (of property thats value has plummeted)

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

This is yet another example of this government attacking the most vunerable.

I agree with you on mental health funding but one point I would differ on is that this is an "attack".

In my opinion, the Government's attitude to mental health services in this country amount to nothing more than carelessness and apathy.
The sad truth is that they know they can cut services for acute in-patient psychiatric wards, and they know they can afford to shed outpatient services or let psychiatric health fester because of a number of reasons.

One of those is that sufferers of psychiatric illness are effectively invisible. Psychiatric illness is not one of those things that receives what I would call "placard support" on any realistic level. You don't get families or children of the depressed, or the mentally disturbed out marching because of a myriad of reasons - sometimes alienation or family problems.

This leads on to the next reason - stigma. Unlike cancer or heart disease, elements of this society still associate mental illness with personal failure, weakness of character - it is the most socially undesirable illness - bizarre as that term is.

We have to appreciate that we as a society have a role to play in all of this. The Government treats the psychiatric services with contempt not because of its contempt for us the people - but because it is looking to the reaction of us the people.

Society still has an unease and an apathy about mental health. It is natural, then, that when corners need to be cut, they will be cut in those areas about which society cares the least.

irishh_bob

its important to distinguish between those who suffer from depression and those who are not the full schilling , whatever about long term detainees in mental institutions , the policy of the state towards those who are not all in it presently is one of . no one should ever be locked up and the mantra is CARE IN THE COMMUNITY , you litterally have to kill someone before you are put in the big house nowadays , thier was a time people were put inside for merley being an embarrassment to their familes but the pendelum has completley swung the other way now , i have a cousin who is a deranged religous fanatic , his immediete family have endured terrible sufferring this past 15 years but all they are repeatedly told by social services is that their is nothing that can be done unless his actions enter the realm of criminality , his bizzare behaviour has been a constant source of humiliation for his nearest and dearest and they desperetley want to see him institutionalised , unfortunatley for them , the powers that be are smug holier than thou , we know better wooly liberals

many people have been murdered this past number of years due to this ill considered wrong headed approach , its time some common sense was adopted , some people are simply nuts and no amount of hugs will change that

Red_Marauder

irishh_bob wrote: »

its important to distinguish between those who suffer from depression and those who are not the full schilling

No, it is important to distinguish all of the categories of psychiatric disorders from one another. "Not the full shilling" isn't a useful term.

whatever about long term detainees in mental institutions , the policy of the state towards those who are not all in it presently is one of . no one should ever be locked up and the mantra is CARE IN THE COMMUNITY , you litterally have to kill someone before you are put in the big house nowadays

I presume by 'big house' you mean a psychiatric hospital.
No it isn't. What you're thinking of is a prison. You don't have to "literally" kill someone to be admitted to hospital.

his bizzare behaviour has been a constant source of humiliation for his nearest and dearest and they desperetley want to see him institutionalised , unfortunatley for them , the powers that be are smug holier than thou , we know better wooly liberals

I'm sorry but you have to take account of the fact that medical professionals don't have an agenda - there is a very clear and a very well established system in place to decide who gets admitted to care and who doesn't - it has nothing to do with liberal, wooly attitudes.

many people have been murdered this past number of years due to this ill considered wrong headed approach , its time some common sense was adopted , some people are simply nuts and no amount of hugs will change that

I think you have a completely warped view of the psychiatric services as they currently exist, and also as how they ought to exist.

irishh_bob

Red_Marauder wrote: »

No, it is important to distinguish all of the categories of psychiatric disorders from one another. "Not the full shilling" isn't a useful term.

I presume by 'big house' you mean a psychiatric hospital.
No it isn't. What you're thinking of is a prison. You don't have to "literally" kill someone to be admitted to hospital.

I'm sorry but you have to take account of the fact that medical professionals don't have an agenda - there is a very clear and a very well established system in place to decide who gets admitted to care and who doesn't - it has nothing to do with liberal, wooly attitudes.

I think you have a completely warped view of the psychiatric services as they currently exist, and also as how they ought to exist.

your the kind of smug , lecturing , holier than thou , i know better , wooly liberal im talking about , you think because you dont use terms like BIG HOUSE that your are oh so tollerant and right on , easy for you from your progressive ivory tower to look down on those who actually have to deal everyday with nutters who make life hell for everyone around them

you claim that you dont have to kill someone in order to be committed in this country , have you ever heard of the case of brendan o donnell who murdered a priest , a young mum and her son , my mum is from the same part of the country as where that happened , o, donnell was notorious in that area , years before that tripple murder occurred yet he could not be touched , thier was a case two years ago in dublin in which a young man from the midlands was up in dublin for the weekend for his cousins stag party , upon returning back to his cousing apartment later that night , he was met in the hallway by a guy wielding a sythe , the guy stabbed him to death 72 times , when the police arrested the assailant , he told them he had just killed the devil , now do you honestly believe that guy didnt have a history of strange behaviour , its time people like you got some cop on and common sense and came to realise that thier are some freaks out there who you cannot simply talk some sense into or cure with a hug

oh and as for thier being no politcal agenda at play when it comes to psychiatric proffesionals making descisions , dont make me laugh , my aunts GP has been trying for years to have my cousin committed but the scumbag psychiatricst in the local hospital keeps vetoing any attempts , her explanation , my cousins problem is one of aquired brain injury as opposed to him being not right , in other words , pure semantics , you dont need to be sigmund freud to know that if someone is accusing thier elderly neighbours of having fire in thier eyes cause the devil invaded them or that jesus is coming next tuesday , that they are cracked as the day is long , this doctor makes me sick and so do you


ps , my aunt is a widow and therefore i take a close interest in the familys wellbeing , i have spoken to thier GP ( also my GP ) and he has told me that liberal politics rules the roost in relation to psychiatric services , interestingly i have been told the same by several other doctors , pm me if you want thier names , wouldnt want to be accused of making up stories

fontanalis

irishh_bob wrote: »

its important to distinguish between those who suffer from depression and those who are not the full schilling , whatever about long term detainees in mental institutions , the policy of the state towards those who are not all in it presently is one of . no one should ever be locked up and the mantra is CARE IN THE COMMUNITY , you litterally have to kill someone before you are put in the big house nowadays , thier was a time people were put inside for merley being an embarrassment to their familes but the pendelum has completley swung the other way now , i have a cousin who is a deranged religous fanatic , his immediete family have endured terrible sufferring this past 15 years but all they are repeatedly told by social services is that their is nothing that can be done unless his actions enter the realm of criminality , his bizzare behaviour has been a constant source of humiliation for his nearest and dearest and they desperetley want to see him institutionalised , unfortunatley for them , the powers that be are smug holier than thou , we know better wooly liberals

many people have been murdered this past number of years due to this ill considered wrong headed approach , its time some common sense was adopted , some people are simply nuts and no amount of hugs will change that

The wooly liberals really went to town with young girsl in institutions back in the day.
Ona serious not; one mans mental patient is another mans mad yoke and it's all well and good about liberals not locking up dangers to society but if it's a case where someone who shouldn't be locked up gets thrown in then it's government gone mad, 1984 etc
It can be a quagmire.
As for funding, if a political party said they wanted to raise taxes to help the mentally ill, how far do you think they would get?

Red_Marauder

There's no point in replying to the first part of your post.

irishh_bob wrote: »

you claim that you dont have to kill someone in order to be committed in this country , have you ever heard of the case of brendan o donnell who murdered a priest , a young mum and her son , my mum is from the same part of the country as where that happened , o, donnell was notorious in that area , years before that tripple murder occurred yet he could not be touched

I know that case very well myself because, like your mother, I am from the same part of the country, and am also familiar with what happened.

It's correct that Brendan O'Donnell was well known in the area and had been receiving psychiatric attention from an early age, but the fact that he was an example of a murderer with psychiatric illnesses doesn't mean a thing.

It is still not true that one "literally" has to kill someone to be 'committed' to psychiatric care in this country involuntarily. Such patients currently exist in psychiatric care all around the country tonight as I type.

Brendan O'Donnell wasn't in psychiatric care at the time of his murder crimes, no, but he had been committed to psychiatric hospital

So? So have lots of people. Having been involuntarily treated in psychiatric services does not mean a life sentance. He was, at one stage, deemed mentally fit to leave, just like he was deemed mentally fit to stand murder trial.

thier was a case two years ago in dublin in which a young man from the midlands was up in dublin for the weekend for his cousins stag party , upon returning back to his cousing apartment later that night , he was met in the hallway by a guy wielding a sythe , the guy stabbed him to death 72 times , when the police arrested the assailant , he told them he had just killed the devil , now do you honestly believe that guy didnt have a history of strange behaviour

thier are some freaks out there who you cannot simply talk some sense into or cure with a hug

Who said anything about curing with a hug?
Your attitude is unreasonable and illogical, you rely on the fact that particular murderers have had psychiatric disease to back up the fact that "you literally have to kill someone" to be committed to hospital. I don't see where the reasoning is

The rest of your post in an extremely bizarre personal rant, I don't see how anyone can respond to it, it's nothing to do with the politics of psychiatric services in Ireland.

Btw don't assume that by having a cousin with psychiatric issues that you are more qualified to pontificate on the issue that other posters; psychiatric illness is widespread in thsi country and I'm sure there are many posters with closer experience to it than 'cousins'.

sam34

bob on his soapbox again!

there were over 4000 people detained against their will in psychiatric hospitals in ireland in teh last two years alone

were there 4000 murders committed by these people?

clearly, NO

there are legal and clinical criteria laid down for who can and cannot eb admitted involuntarily

and the world of psychiatric illness cannot simply be divided into "depression" and "not teh full shilling"

epgc3fyqirnbsx

I can't claim to know a huge amount about psychiatric well-being but from what I gather, the majority of 'conditions', are down to a chemical imbalance in the brain.
Diabetes is also a chemical imbalance, and one which is widely known and should someone show symptons they are diagnosed and helped quite quickly.

However, when it comes to mental health, even though it may be a similar imbalance, there is a general reluctance amongst individuals and families to get the necessary treatment because of this stigma.
Is this something that can be addressed at a GP level or am I being incredibally naive?

Red_Marauder

To be honest, any point of contact is probably going to be beneficial as a first step, be it the GP or a close friend or relative, or a counsellor or even just a telephone call to AWARE or another helpline.

The benefit of going to a GP is that he or she will have a good perception of how to progress, be it a short hand domestic solution, or referral to a counselling service, or a psychiatrist, or worse case scenario, a psychiatric institution.

Many psychiatric illnesses can be dealt with in the community or at outpatient level, just like other illnesses. We are finally coming round to the idea that mental illness, tenacious as it tends to be, doesn't have to mean a brick wall or a lifetime in care.

Two big issues in psychiatric illness are stability and environment - if the patient can be treated in a stable and safe, loving environment out in the community, and that is in everybody's best interests, then I think that's a great help all round really.

But we really need to get over the stigma and the shame of mental illness.

Flamed Diving

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I agree with you on mental health funding but one point I would differ on is that this is an "attack".

In my opinion, the Government's attitude to mental health services in this country amount to nothing more than carelessness and apathy.
The sad truth is that they know they can cut services for acute in-patient psychiatric wards, and they know they can afford to shed outpatient services or let psychiatric health fester because of a number of reasons.

One of those is that sufferers of psychiatric illness are effectively invisible. Psychiatric illness is not one of those things that receives what I would call "placard support" on any realistic level. You don't get families or children of the depressed, or the mentally disturbed out marching because of a myriad of reasons - sometimes alienation or family problems.

This leads on to the next reason - stigma. Unlike cancer or heart disease, elements of this society still associate mental illness with personal failure, weakness of character - it is the most socially undesirable illness - bizarre as that term is.

We have to appreciate that we as a society have a role to play in all of this. The Government treats the psychiatric services with contempt not because of its contempt for us the people - but because it is looking to the reaction of us the people.

Society still has an unease and an apathy about mental health. It is natural, then, that when corners need to be cut, they will be cut in those areas about which society cares the least.

This is a perfect post.

nesf

Rogelio Alive Lubrication wrote: »

Is this something that can be addressed at a GP level or am I being incredibally naive?

A GP can reasonably only deal with the simplest of cases. Most people with serious lifelong psychiatric problems will need a psychiatrist and possibly in-patient or out-patient psychiatric care depending on their individual case.

It's nowhere close to as straightforward and simple to treat and manage as diabetes is. For one thing, diabetics are highly unlikely to suddenly start thinking that they don't have diabetes and don't need to be taking insulin while such a delusion can easily occur with bipolar or schizophrenia patients.

nesf

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I agree with you on mental health funding but one point I would differ on is that this is an "attack".

In my opinion, the Government's attitude to mental health services in this country amount to nothing more than carelessness and apathy.
The sad truth is that they know they can cut services for acute in-patient psychiatric wards, and they know they can afford to shed outpatient services or let psychiatric health fester because of a number of reasons.

One of those is that sufferers of psychiatric illness are effectively invisible. Psychiatric illness is not one of those things that receives what I would call "placard support" on any realistic level. You don't get families or children of the depressed, or the mentally disturbed out marching because of a myriad of reasons - sometimes alienation or family problems.

This leads on to the next reason - stigma. Unlike cancer or heart disease, elements of this society still associate mental illness with personal failure, weakness of character - it is the most socially undesirable illness - bizarre as that term is.

We have to appreciate that we as a society have a role to play in all of this. The Government treats the psychiatric services with contempt not because of its contempt for us the people - but because it is looking to the reaction of us the people.

Society still has an unease and an apathy about mental health. It is natural, then, that when corners need to be cut, they will be cut in those areas about which society cares the least.

It's even worse than that. This apathy was inherited from previous Governments. There's nothing new or surprising with how our psychiatric institutions are right now, they've been in poor nick since the foundation of the State and honestly are probably better today than they were in the 70s/80s in many parts of the country. Which is depressing, but there you go.

Flamed Diving

irishh_bob wrote: »

whole area is full of politics

That tends to follow groups of humans, alright.

irishh_bob

Flamed Diving wrote: »

That tends to follow groups of humans, alright.

completley agree , if only others on this thread thought the same , they seem to believe that mental illness proffesionals only ever act with impartiality and objectivity

Laminations

Irish bob I dont think your posts are relevant to this thread. The point is we had a lot of money, it wasn't spent on mental health. These people are vulnerable and they have been forgotten. They have been ignored by many governments. A vision for Change made a lot of promises which it never delivered. John Moloney has no excuse, he couldn't give one, he could only make more promises. They cut SNAs, basically because they know they wont get much resistance here, no one on the streets marching, this government is not a shepard for the vulnerable or marginalised.

Laminations

irishh_bob wrote: »

its time some common sense was adopted , some people are simply nuts and no amount of hugs will change that

What does this have to do with funding of mental health services? apart from doing nothing for stigmatisation, you demonstrate no knowledge of mental disorder classification or treatment, nothing outside of the most baseless pop-psychology book anyway.

Scofflaw

irishh_bob banned for a week for repeating an earlier potentially libellous post.

moderately,
Scofflaw