Irish Sports Council NGB core funding announced

target

The core funding for 2010 has been announced.

In summary allocations for shooting sports, the ICPSA get €35,000 whilst the SSIA have not been allocated any funding.

Irish Times article here

rrpc

Full lists are linked on this page: http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/News_Events/Latest_News/2010_Archive/GOVERNING_BODIES_Irish_Sports_Council_Announces_2010_Governing_Body_Grants.html

Half-cocked

Did the ICPSA get the SSAI's money????

rrpc

Half-cocked wrote: »

Did the ICPSA get the SSAI's money????

I wouldn't put it like that. The ICPSA were dropped from core funding because of pending court cases or some such but it was always understood that once all that was sorted they'd be back on the list.

Which obviously they are.

Sikamick

Re the groups that are on the list for funding from the Irish Sports Council, do the affiliated clubs have to pay 1000 euro to get club Authorization or is it only Rifle/Pistol clubs that have to pay this?.

Sikamick

dCorbus

WTF - the Horseshoe Pitchers Association of Ireland get over €5K, the Baton Twirling Sport Association of Ireland get €5K and we get zilch! FFS:mad::mad::mad::mad:

(I'm not joking about those two BTW - Check out the lists - Nice to see our Tax Dollars at work to benefit sports in Ireland)

"The Irish Sport Council - Supporting Irish Sport" - My hairy f***in' left-one!:mad:

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Re the groups that are on the list for funding from the Irish Sports Council, do the affiliated clubs have to pay 1000 euro to get club Authorization or is it only Rifle/Pistol clubs that have to pay this?.

Sikamick

I'm not sure what you're asking here Mick, on so many levels. The club authorisation fee goes to central coffers and has nothing to do with the Sports Council; that much I can answer.

Same as your licence fee actually.

rrpc

dCorbus wrote: »

WTF - the Horseshoe Pitchers Association of Ireland get over €5K, the Baton Twirling Sport Association of Ireland get €5K and we get zilch! FFS:mad::mad::mad::mad:

(I'm not joking about those two BTW - Check out the lists - Nice to see our Tax Dollars at work to benefit sports in Ireland)

"The Irish Sport Council - Supporting Irish Sport" - My hairy f***in' left-one!:mad:

If you go to the ISC website dCorbus, you'll find that their remit is for sports participation as well as high performance sport.

Baton Twirlers and Horseshoe Pitchers operate in some very disadvantaged areas and take kids that would ordinarily not get involved in sports at all. I wouldn't begrudge them the money at all.

It's only a pittance anyway. If you want to look for unfairness, look at how the GAA split themselves up into so many different organisations to maximise their income. And add that to the millions they get through allowing the 'foreign sports' into Croke Park and you have to ask should they get all that money?

And most of it isn't on that list. It comes in seperately in a separate deal.

dCorbus

Baton Twirlers and Horseshoe Pitchers operate in some very disadvantaged areas and take kids that would ordinarily not get involved in sports at all. I wouldn't begrudge them the money at all.

That's a fair point, rrpc, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone in a disadvantaged area the source of the paltry funds they are receiving - however, there are how many licenced target shooting sports men and women in Ireland? Surely, this lack of allocation of ANY funding - that's zero, zilch, nada, nichts, yes, you guessed it NONE: Sum total €0.00 - to any of the target shooting sports (OK the SSAI got no money - Did the NTSAI?).

I don't begrudge anyone getting funding from wherever it comes from - but this is still a "thundering disgrace" IMHO.

rrpc

dCorbus wrote: »

That's a fair point, rrpc, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone in a disadvantaged area the source of the paltry funds they are receiving - however, there are how many licenced target shooting sports men and women in Ireland? Surely, this lack of allocation of ANY funding - that's zero, zilch, nada, nichts, yes, you guessed it NONE: Sum total €0.00 - to any of the target shooting sports (OK the SSAI got no money - Did the NTSAI?).

I don't begrudge anyone getting funding from wherever it comes from - but this is still a "thundering disgrace" IMHO.

Well the ICPSA would dispute that they aren't a target shooting sport, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that, but it had to be said .

The NTSA are not recognised by the Irish Sports Council since they pulled out of the SSAI in August 2008. So no they didn't get any funding and can't comment on the SSAI as they are no longer a member and have no knowledge of any negotiations or discussions that the SSAI may have had with the Sports Council.

Half-cocked

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but might the SSAI have lost core funding because it has contributed to the NASRPC's legal fund to defend pistol shooting? I can picture Minister Ahern ringing Minister Cullen and asking him to stop indirectly handing out money to people who are opposing his crusade to save Ireland from the evils of pistol ownership. I know the ISC is supposed to be independant of the Dept of Sport, but this is Ireland....

rrpc

Half-cocked wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but might the SSAI have lost core funding because it has contributed to the NASRPC's legal fund to defend pistol shooting? I can picture Minister Ahern ringing Minister Cullen and asking him to stop indirectly handing out money to people who are opposing his crusade to save Ireland from the evils of pistol ownership. I know the ISC is supposed to be independant of the Dept of Sport, but this is Ireland....

AFAIK (and this is only going on memory from a couple of years ago) but I'm fairly sure that those funds were from the original FLAG account and weren't derived from ISC core funding.

dCorbus

halfcocked - my thoughts exactly!

How exactly did this happen I'd like to know - We are really getting in the neck from all sides now, first the DoJ and now the flaming Department of Sport etc.

Was a ball-dropped?

How much was applied for?

Well, now we really know how this FF government see's our place in society (if that wasn't abundantly clear already) - Just lost my vote!:mad:

Sikamick

rrpc what I am asking is, what other sports Clubs or Associations in Ireland have to pay 1000 euro to be Authorized like Rifle/ Pistol clubs.

Do Clay Pigeon or Game clubs have to pay 1000 euro as per S.I. 308 or any of the Irish Sports Council list of Associations or their affiliated clubs have to pay as we the rifle /pistol clubs do. What do we get for this 1000-euro?

To my knowledge no other sport in this country pay an Authorization fee to the Government, please correct me if I am wrong, so we pay and get no funding, Ireland ah sure it is a wonderful Country.

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

we pay and get no funding, Ireland ah sure it is a wonderful Country

That about sums it up all right Sikamick.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

That about sums it up all right Sikamick.

Don't forget the licence fee which adds up to a lot more than the club fee does...

Sparks

licence fee, club fee, (soon) range fee... all the same from that point of view

Bananaman

Half-cocked wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but might the SSAI have lost core funding because it has contributed to the NASRPC's legal fund to defend pistol shooting? I can picture Minister Ahern ringing Minister Cullen and asking him to stop indirectly handing out money to people who are opposing his crusade to save Ireland from the evils of pistol ownership. I know the ISC is supposed to be independant of the Dept of Sport, but this is Ireland....

Horlicks - that is rubbish.

A guy at the SSAI meeting in November quoted Oliver Cromwell

"If you put an Irishman on a spit he will turn it himself"

That is all this sort of thing is.

I would say it is exactly what it looks like.

SSAI probably did not seek any funding therefore did not get any funding.

ICPSA have been actively lobbying government for the last year and I am sure sought funding and therefore got it.

There will most likely not be any skulduggery other than that.

The Contribution from the SSAI to the NASRPC Legal fund was the contents of the FLAG fund - that is "Firearms Legislation Action Group" - it wasn't the tea and biscuits fund - this is exactly what the money was raised for in the first place so there is no sense that the SSAI dirtied it's bib by supporting an initiative to defend the shooting sports - it's their mandate.

On the matter of the club registration fee - sickamick has a point - shooting clubs are the only ones required by legislation to pay for the privilege of existing - the clubs affiliated to the tug of war association of Ireland probably does not have to pay the state for the privilege of existing.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

SSAI probably did not seek any funding therefore did not get any funding.

I would be very very surprised if that were the case. It's the raison d'etre of the SSAI to apply for funding for its federated members.

ICPSA have been actively lobbying government for the last year and I am sure sought funding and therefore got it.

The ICPSA got 100,000 or thereabouts last year for its high performance section but hadn't got core funding for a number of years as there were legal issues.

Half-cocked

Bananaman wrote: »

The Contribution from the SSAI to the NASRPC Legal fund was the contents of the FLAG fund - that is "Firearms Legislation Action Group" - it wasn't the tea and biscuits fund - this is exactly what the money was raised for in the first place so there is no sense that the SSAI dirtied it's bib by supporting an initiative to defend the shooting sports - it's their mandate.

B'Man

Hey B'Man,thats the reality of the situation and you are quite correct. But when did politicians ever see issues in black and white? Person A gives money to B. B gives money (from a completely different source) to C. A doesn't like C and so stops giving further money to C. The fact that A is a incompetent ignoramus with a bee under his bonnet about law abiding citizens owning legaly held pistols is cold comfort to C:mad:

Bananaman

Half Cocked,

It's only being paranoid to think that.

If the ISC see fit to fund the development of our sports then that would be fantastic. This year they have decided not to do so. That is their perogative.

So this year we will have to fund the development of our sports ourselves. Lets face it - we have always done so anyway.

We had some fantastic successes last year with examples such as a huge haul of medals at the Precision Pistol European Championships and at the Precision Pistol World Championships to name but a few. I am sure there have been successes in all the other disciplines also.

It has to be noted that the ICPSA have also had major successes and have made hay while the sun shines.

The important thing is to continue to have a healthy competition scene at home and to do well where we can abroad. Then our ongoing case for funding with the ISC will have merit - if they choose to ignore it then there is not much we can do.

ISC funding should not the cornerstone of the success of a sport - it is only meant to help with the ongoing development of it - of course politics is a big aspect of that - all sports will live or die based on the participation of individuals and their willingness to do well, funded or not - politics be damned.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Half Cocked,

It's only being paranoid to think that.

If the ISC see fit to fund the development of our sports then that would be fantastic. This year they have decided not to do so. That is their perogative.

So this year we will have to fund the development of our sports ourselves. Lets face it - we have always done so anyway.

We had some fantastic successes last year with examples such as a huge haul of medals at the Precision Pistol European Championships and at the Precision Pistol World Championships to name but a few. I am sure there have been successes in all the other disciplines also.

It has to be noted that the ICPSA have also had major successes and have made hay while the sun shines.

The ICPSA would not have had the success it's had without ISC funding of its high performance program. The cost of sending shooters and support staff to World Cups 4 times a year on all continents is mind bogglingly expensive and with only the membership fees and other income the ICPSA has just wouldn't be feasible.

Bananaman

rrpc wrote: »

The ICPSA would not have had the success it's had without ISC funding of its high performance program. The cost of sending shooters and support staff to World Cups 4 times a year on all continents is mind bogglingly expensive and with only the membership fees and other income the ICPSA has just wouldn't be feasible.

And if they didn't get that funding they would either have to pony up themselves or re-evaluate what success means.

B'Man

Bananaman

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

And if they didn't get that funding they would either have to pony up themselves or re-evaluate what success means.

B'Man

Well you could take that view or you could look to other sports that receive funding and measure your success against them. The sad fact is that money equates to success and if you don't have it you'll wallow around at the bottom of the heap for ever. It's no coincidence that the sports with the highest ISC funding are the ones with the best success rates internationally.

It's not just within Ireland; we have to compete internationally and that means competing on all fronts both with top class athletes and the money to support them. Look around the world at the shooting sports and see what level of Government funding they get.

Re-evaluating what success in that context means you must lower your sights and your goals.

Bananaman

rrpc wrote: »

Re-evaluating what success in that context means you must lower your sights and your goals.

I do not believe so - if your goals and measure of success sets the floor at entering into a level of competition that requires major government funding then you are setting yourself up for a fall. It is unfortunate but due to the fickle nature of politics it is a real risk. Many people have said on numerous occasions that as the NTSA is no longer funded by the ISC due to the fact it left the SSAI it has limited its ability to achieve 'success' as it was measured when it was in the SSAI and did receive that funding.

Olympic disciplines in all sports have 'political value' should the participants do well - hence the propensity of the Government to fund them. The GAA is a larger political organisation with more power on a local level than the state itself so obviously there is political value in keeping them 'on-side'.

Some of the true minority sports such as Cricket have a lot of political value for aspirational reasons, good PR and marketing and the backing of the media. The results are obvious.

Shooting Sports have no political value, have no PR and have no relationship with the media so will always be looking for scraps from the table until that changes. I know the ICPSA have got funding this year but it is hardly 'major funding' but it is still funding for 'the shooting sports'. Saying that some of us have in some way been screwed over or given a slap on the hand by giving funding to the ICPSA is disingenuous and another attempt to drive a wedge between those that take part in 'the shooting sports'. I say well done to them and wish them success and hope that when the tide turns they will do the same.

With limited or no funding the Shooting Sports in Ireland have done well with major international accolades in virtually all disciplines - more than can be said for some of the sports which are well funded - they should continue to do so - work on the PR and make themselves Politically Valuable - if even for a day - and then the gravy will flow.

If it doesn't - well, we will be no worse off.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

I do not believe so - if your goals and measure of success sets the floor at entering into a level of competition that requires major government funding then you are setting yourself up for a fall. It is unfortunate but due to the fickle nature of politics it is a real risk. Many people have said on numerous occasions that as the NTSA is no longer funded by the ISC due to the fact it left the SSAI it has limited its ability to achieve 'success' as it was measured when it was in the SSAI and did receive that funding.

The limited funding the NTSA received was not really a major factor. €4,000'ish is not really going to make much difference either way; an extra international maybe, but not enough to compete in any meaningful way.

Shooting Sports have no political value, have no PR and have no relationship with the media so will always be looking for scraps from the table until that changes. I know the ICPSA have got funding this year but it is hardly 'major funding' but it is still funding for 'the shooting sports'. Saying that some of us have in some way been screwed over or given a slap on the hand by giving funding to the ICPSA is disingenuous and another attempt to drive a wedge between those that take part in 'the shooting sports'. I say well done to them and wish them success and hope that when the tide turns they will do the same.

You're forgetting the 100k the ICPSA received from the ISC for its high performance program, the results of which are also obvious. I think the latter part of your paragraph could not be directed at me as I made no such claim about the ICPSA. In fact I replied to someone else who suggested that and pointed out that it was wrong.

With limited or no funding the Shooting Sports in Ireland have done well with major international accolades in virtually all disciplines - more than can be said for some of the sports which are well funded - they should continue to do so - work on the PR and make themselves Politically Valuable - if even for a day - and then the gravy will flow.

Leaving out the ICPSA who's international success is on a par with any other sport in this country, there's not much else that's acheived the same level of success under the same competitive pressures. WA1500 is the only exception, but with all due respect to the lads taking part, it's still a minority sport internationally speaking.

That is not to be read as a dig at WA1500, you can only compete with what's in front of you, but there is no comparison with the level of competition that Derek Burnett has to face at any World Cup event.

I think the day when Shooting Sports are 'politically valuable' will be a day that's long out of the reach of my lifespan.

Bananaman

rrpc wrote: »

I think the latter part of your paragraph could not be directed at me as I made no such claim about the ICPSA.

It was a general comment - what is obvious in all the 'politics' in relation to the shooting sports is that there are non-stop attempts being made to cause division.

Declaring one form of sport ok and another not ok - declaring one part restricted and one part non restricted - declaring one form as being under range restrictions and another not - declaring one form to require added security and another not - funding one part but not another part - all attempts to have people not support each other.

It's far easier to step on us one by one than trying to squash us as one.

The OPs point that the SSAIs funding being cut and the ICPSAs funding being increased is in some way our own fault is just another example of this.

It is not our fault - it is the vagaries of politics which is at fault.

rrpc wrote: »

That is not to be read as a dig at WA1500, you can only compete with what's in front of you, but there is no comparison with the level of competition that Derek Burnett has to face at any World Cup event.

I do not agree.

To compete against the best in the world is to compete against the best in the world. Would you say that the Irish Team that play Australia in the compromise rules would see themselves as being in a different league to Derek Burnett in a World Cup - I think not.

They are representing their country against the best that any other country can produce.

Then why should someone who is competing with a dozen other nations in the 1500 World Championship think that - they should not - they have competed against the best in Ireland and have won - they have competed against the best in Europe and won - then they competed against the best in the World and won. To not recognise that for what it is is wrong.

We are all in the shooting sports - whatever discipline - because we like doing it - I think you will find that Ireland has had amazing success in F-Class, Silhouettes, 1500, various clay pigeon events, various ISSF events, and many others.

These are all successes, not just for the people who did it, but for the shooting sports as a whole. It may not be a TV moment, they may have had to fund themselves all the way, they may be part of a minority sport and may have been shunned by the media but none of that should detract from what they did.

They are proud of what they have achieved and we should be proud of them for doing it.

End of.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

It was a general comment - what is obvious in all the 'politics' in relation to the shooting sports is that there are non-stop attempts being made to cause division.

I made the comment because you only quoted me, which gave the impression I'd said it. I needed to make that point for the benefit of anyone coming to that post without reading what came before.

The OPs point that the SSAIs funding being cut and the ICPSAs funding being increased is in some way our own fault is just another example of this.

It is not our fault - it is the vagaries of politics which is at fault.

We don't know why the SSAI funding (which is supposed to be for the federated members btw) was cut, so there's no point speculating until that's clarified.

To compete against the best in the world is to compete against the best in the world. Would you say that the Irish Team that play Australia in the compromise rules would see themselves as being in a different league to Derek Burnett in a World Cup - I think not.

The point is not how the competitor sees it but how the outside observer sees it. Those outside observers including the people who have responsibility for funding sport.

Unfortunately, that's the business of sport.

Rosahane

I think we deserve a statement from the SSAI on the situation!

As I see it either:

- they seriously peeved the Irish Sports Council, if so, how?
- or they neglected to apply for funding, if so, why?

FLOYDSTER

Rosahane wrote: »

I think we deserve a statement from the SSAI on the situation!

As I see it either:

- they seriously peeved the Irish Sports Council, if so, how?
- or they neglected to apply for funding, if so, why?

PMSL!!!, I doubt you'll get any info!, it really is all smoke and mirrors!:rolleyes:

Mr.Flibble

Rosahane wrote: »

I think we deserve a statement from the SSAI on the situation!

As I see it either:

- they seriously peeved the Irish Sports Council, if so, how?
- or they neglected to apply for funding, if so, why?

So why don't you ask them, instead of whingeing about it on here.

Unless, of course you're not a member, in which case you don't "deserve" jack sh*t from them.

target

From the Irish Times

The Shooting Sports Association of Ireland and the Karate Association, however, had their funding withheld for failing to comply with the criteria laid down by the Irish Sports Council.

The Shooting Sports Association of Ireland, which last year got €35,450, and the karate association (ONAKAI), which last year got €11,500, can appeal the withdrawal of their funding.

The processes for applying for NGB core funding have taken on the same level of complexity as for High Performance funding. Grant aid is not supplied on the basis that you are an NGB and entitled to it but on the basis of the programmes that the NGB has developed and which require the funding in the first place. 5-year strategic plans, yearly operational plans and evidence of strong corporate governance are pre-requisites for the applications.

Just asking for money for the sake of it will get a blank response.

rrpc

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

So why don't you ask them, instead of whingeing about it on here.

Unless, of course you're not a member, in which case you don't "deserve" jack sh*t from them.

Unless Rosahane is either the NRAI, NSAI, NASRPC or the IPC he couldn't be a member of the SSAI.

If he's a member of any of those bodies, he's entitled to ask them to ask their SSAI rep what happened.

rrpc

target wrote: »

The processes for applying for NGB core funding have taken on the same level of complexity as for High Performance funding. Grant aid is not supplied on the basis that you are an NGB and entitled to it but on the basis of the programmes that the NGB has developed and which require the funding in the first place. 5-year strategic plans, yearly operational plans and evidence of strong corporate governance are pre-requisites for the applications.

It has been like that for some time now. Some NGB's have been denied funding in the past because of corporate governance issues or because of doubts as to the use the funds have been put to. The NGB's have been audited by PWC on a regular basis. This is not new.

target

rrpc wrote: »

This is not new.

On the contrary, the auditing process conducted by PWC was a once off review of NGB's to establish the state of the playing field. Since then and following on from it an NGB toolkit has been developed and was launched last November by the NGB unit of the ISC.

At the same time a new High Performance planning toolkit was also launched. The use of the toolkit and complying with its requirements for the use of structured planning methodologies and strict performance measurement were prerequisites to grant aid for that programme.

While it might not state it, these toolkits have become the new measuring stick by which the NGB's and their HP programmes are being measured.

rrpc

target wrote: »

On the contrary, the auditing process conducted by PWC was a once off review of NGB's to establish the state of the playing field. Since then and following on from it an NGB toolkit has been developed and was launched last November by the NGB unit of the ISC.

The audits were carried out in 2008 and recommendations were made shortly thereafter to the audited NGB's, the toolkit arrived around the closing date for the time for submitting core funding appplications, so should have had little or no bearing on them. But are you saying that it was just too difficult to make a submission? You seem to know something about this, so perhaps you could clarify the reasons for the lack of funding.

target

rrpc wrote: »

But are you saying that it was just too difficult to make a submission? You seem to know something about this, so perhaps you could clarify the reasons for the lack of funding.

I am well versed in Sports Council applications for funding and I hope in my last few posts that I've explained to some extent why they are not so straightforward to obtain and the volume of work that an NGB must do to make the submission viable.

Forgive me but I'm not looking to pick a fight, I've no personal knowledge of nor interest in the SSAI, their submission or the lack of it if that should be the case. Those questions you must direct to the SSAI.

rrpc

target wrote: »

I am well versed in Sports Council applications for funding and I hope in my last few posts that I've explained to some extent why they are not so straightforward to obtain and the volume of work that an NGB must do to make the submission viable.

I'm not disputing that. I'm also of the view; which I've aired frequently and to those who are reponsible, that the prime purpose or raison d'etre of the SSAI is to apply for and disburse ISC funding.

Forgive me but I'm not looking to pick a fight, I've no personal knowledge of nor interest in the SSAI, their submission or the lack of it if that should be the case. Those questions you must direct to the SSAI.

Apologies for that, it seemed that you were answering for them which is why I asked the question.