More Problems For Toyota and Honda.

Saab Ed

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0210/breaking1.htm

All cars have their problems but as a car company the last thing you want at the moment is a re-call. I cant understand how easy the general public have jumped on the Toyota bashing bus. Toyotas are very well built cars and IMO the way they are dealing with the problem is very honest. This really is doing untold damage to them.

Wossack

god I hate this non-story

theres recalls _all_ the time - fooking sheople

Zubeneschamali

Saab Ed wrote: »

I cant understand how easy the general public have jumped on the Toyota bashing bus.

It's very simple:Toyotas aren't good to drive, or look at. They aren't made out of nice materials, so they aren't nice to sit in, or touch. They aren't fast or particularly frugal. They aren't cheap. There's only one reason to buy them: they are "The best built cars in the world".

Toyota have spent years and years drilling that into customers, they've bet the whole farm on it. They've weeded sporty models like the Supra, Celica and MR2 out of the range to focus on bread-and-butter reliable motoring. If that reputation is damaged, they've got nothing.

These recalls damage that reputation.

Cookie_Monster

Saab Ed's Link wrote:

Honda, Japan's second-largest car maker, said the faulty airbags had been linked to one death and 11 injuries in the United States, but no accidents elsewhere.

That hardly justifies a world wide recall does it?

Tea 1000

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That hardly justifies a world wide recall does it?

True, but Honda always seemed to be good at recalling things that they weren't perfectly happy with. Crap timing though!

Max Headroom

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That hardly justifies a world wide recall does it?

I'm guessin the injuries were as a result of a Big Mac and coffee being slammed into the drivers face in the drive-thru......:D

Leonard Hofstadter

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's very simple:Toyotas aren't good to drive, or look at. They aren't made out of nice materials, so they aren't nice to sit in, or touch. They aren't fast or particularly frugal. They aren't cheap. There's only one reason to buy them: they are "The best built cars in the world".

Toyota have spent years and years drilling that into customers, they've bet the whole farm on it. They've weeded sporty models like the Supra, Celica and MR2 out of the range to focus on bread-and-butter reliable motoring. If that reputation is damaged, they've got nothing.

These recalls damage that reputation.

Exactly, Toyota have for as long as I can remember removed EVERYTHING that could make anyone even remotely interested in cars want one.

The main reason to ever buy a Toyota was as the marketing slogan says because they are "The Best Built Cars in the World", not really a reason when you consider how many other car makers make reliable cars but no matter, this is Ireland and we are quite deluded on these kind of things.

The next reason to buy a Toyota is because of the customer service they provide, and this is something that in my experience is unique to Toyota, so this actually quite a good reason to buy one because this is something that no-one else can match.

The difference between Toyota's customer care and other makes is even wider than the difference between a Toyota and say a Ford in terms of which car is better. I begrudingly admit that it's no wonder that Toyota are so strong here because even when things go wrong Toyota will replace things that they think shouldn't have gone at that stage in a car's life even if the warranty is well out. In my experience the customer service in Toyota garages, even for tyre kickers is so much better than in other garages it is embarrassing.

But the reliability thing is now no longer there. Customer service is very important but it is not going to save you if the car isn't as reliable as it used to be.

In fact it hasn't been true for a long time really. Let's not kid ourselves despite the delusions of Toyota owners who in general always have been very ignorant of the fact that there are way better cars out there.

When the VVTi engines came out they were notorious for burning oil at quite a young age.

The Avensis diesel has swirl flap problems, so they are not really a whole lot better than the much criticised(and deservedly so) BMW 2.0 diesel, admittedly they don't blow turbos like BMW's did but that's not much good if the swirl flaps go is it?

Although not particularly relevant for Ireland I've heard that their 2.2 D4D is meant to be atrocious, another BMW diesel type, turbos, injectors all kinds of things go wrong with it.

There are plenty of threads here about the Land Cruiser giving terrible trouble as well, rather worrying really.

The Auris and by extensions the Corolla have been absolutely thrashed in terms of reliability.

Having been in the new Avensis(a POS in case you were wondering but because this is a cars forum you probably knew this already), the cabin plastics are appalling to be truthful, like something you'd get from a cheap Korean car not something that costs more than a Superb.

In spite of the marketing slogan Toyota hasn't topped a JD Power survey in a very long time.

I'm not saying Toyotas are like Renaults are anything but they are not as good as the general public make them out to be either.

To be fair to Toyota there is no truly reliable car out there any more, reliability in general has slipped a lot in modern cars, this is to be expected with all the complication in modern cars and is only going to get worse with the up and coming downsized engines with turbos and direct injection coming along for petrol engines.

The thing is though that other makes make far, far better cars than Toyota, and with their very obvious slip in quality they aren't more reliable enough(I would argue that they are no more reliable than most makes these days) to compensate for their absolute crapiness in other areas.

JHMEG

captainspeed wrote: »

I'm not saying Toyotas are like Renaults are anything but they are not as good as the general public make them out to be either.

So what you're saying is Toyota are dire, but not as bad as Renault?

stimpson

captainspeed wrote: »

In spite of the marketing slogan Toyota hasn't topped a JD Power survey in a very long time.

Wow - nice rant. Pity you didn't do your research...

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/lexus-wins-jd-power-award-again-/240640

At model level, Toyota captures two awards—more than any other manufacturer included in the 2009 study.

The winners of each JD Power category are as follows:

# Toyota Aygo city car

# Honda Jazz small car

# Skoda Octavia lower medium car

# Toyota Prius upper medium car

# Audi A6 executive/luxury car

# Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class sports car

# Citroen Grand C4 Picasso MPV

# Lexus RX SUV

Zubeneschamali

JHMEG wrote: »

So what you're saying is Toyota are dire, but not as bad as Renault?

No, I think he's saying they aren't dire like Renault, but they aren't the best any more, and people are copping on.

I'm not so sure: they may well still be the best. I think it's just that the difference between the best and the rest isn't as great as it was: the likes of Renault and Fiat are improving, while Toyota have a hard time getting any better, given how good they are.

Zubeneschamali

stimpson wrote: »

Wow - nice rant. Pity you didn't do your research...

JD Power always depresses me, I mean look at those cars:

# Toyota Aygo city car

People vote for the Aygo because it's a reliable Toyota, without realising they could save €500 buy buying the same car off the same production line with a Citroen badge. "Oh, but French cars are so unreliable!"

# Honda Jazz small car

Zzzzzz.

# Skoda Octavia lower medium car

Big boot!

# Toyota Prius upper medium car

[smug] It's a Hybrid, you know[/smug]

# Audi A6 executive/luxury car

Meh.

# Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class sports car

WTF?

# Citroen Grand C4 Picasso MPV

Off the pace.

# Lexus RX SUV

Jesus.

stimpson

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

JD Power always depresses me, I mean look at those cars:

# Toyota Aygo city car

People vote for the Aygo because it's a reliable Toyota, without realising they could save €500 buy buying the same car off the same production line with a Citroen badge. "Oh, but French cars are so unreliable!"

You do know the Aygo is actually cheaper than the Pug 107 or Citroen C1??

The great thing about JD Power is that it's not a smarmy motoring journalist telling you what to think. It's ordinary people who have driven the cars day in, day out, giving their ordinary opinion

Zubeneschamali

stimpson wrote: »

It's ordinary people who have driven the cars day in, day out, giving their ordinary opinion

Judging by the number of my friends and relations who phone me up to ask about cars they are looking at (and I'm no mechanic, I'm just interested in cars, follow the magazines and news), it seems that many ordinary people are well aware that they know bugger-all about cars.

godtabh

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Judging by the number of my friends and relations who phone me up to ask about cars they are looking at (and I'm no mechanic, I'm just interested in cars, follow the magazines and news), it seems that many ordinary people are well aware that they know bugger-all about cars.

Its a Satisfaction survey. People like the car it ranks high. If people dont like the car it ranks low. Its a very simple concept!

I wouldnt be put of by buying a toyota based on this. Recalls happen. I'd be more concerned at what price its been sold to me at

stimpson

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Judging by the number of my friends and relations who phone me up to ask about cars they are looking at (and I'm no mechanic, I'm just interested in cars, follow the magazines and news), it seems that many ordinary people are well aware that they know bugger-all about cars.

I hope you haven't been recommending C1's over Aygo's based on price!

If you're buying a new car you will have very little to go on. If you have driven one for a couple of years, you will know it far more intimately. Far more than a motoring journo who has just read the specs and driven it for a weekend.

Wossack

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Judging by the number of my friends and relations who phone me up to ask about cars they are looking at (and I'm no mechanic, I'm just interested in cars, follow the magazines and news), it seems that many ordinary people are well aware that they know bugger-all about cars.

hope you glean more then 'meh', 'zzz' and incorrect pricing from those mags

JHMEG

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think he's saying they aren't dire like Renault

That's what I thought he meant.

Zubeneschamali

godtabh wrote: »

Its a Satisfaction survey. People like the car it ranks high. If people dont like the car it ranks low. Its a very simple concept!

Yes, which explains why Mercedes does worse than Skoda, even though their cars are better in every measurable way. Mercedes buyers expect them to be better still for the money, while Skoda buyers are happy to think they've scored a bargain Audi.

This is also why the Prius scores so well: people don't buy them as cars, and they don't judge them as cars. They are very satisfied with their Priusses as green-credential saving-the-polar-bear symbolic gestures.

stimpson

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, which explains why Mercedes does worse than Skoda, even though their cars are better in every measurable way.

But that's kind of the point - there is an expectation that they are better, but they aren't necessarily THAT much better. I've been in an SL and an SLK and they are gorgeous, but crazily expensive. If money was no object, sure - I'd have an SLR 722, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

Back in the real world, I've been in an A Series and to be honest I'd sooner spend my money on a Skoda.

Zubeneschamali

stimpson wrote: »

Back in the real world, I've been in an A Series and to be honest I'd sooner spend my money on a Skoda.

Agreed there, I really meant the RWD "real" Mercs, not the A, B or the ancient CLC.

stimpson

If "real" Mercs were as good as the price tag suggests they would appear further up the list. But they're not.

If I was in the market for RWD I'd take an S2000 over an SLK any day. And JD Power survey would agree with me!

galwaytt

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, which explains why Mercedes does worse than Skoda, even though their cars are better in every measurable way.

...actually, they're not. Satisfaction is not an objective measurable, so that doesn't count.

Reliablity does, though, and according to this a Skoda is TWICE as reliable as Merc. And that's from a warranty company who fork out the cash for breakdown's. In which case a Merc is measurably worse. More desirable, sure, but that's about it.......

stimpson

Wow - that site is an eye opener. For someone who has driven Honda's for 10 years their performance was no suprise. What was though is Porsche being the worst! So much for German build quality!

JHMEG

Jeez, and I was just about to buy a Renault!

Matt Simis

stimpson wrote: »

Wow - that site is an eye opener. For someone who has driven Honda's for 10 years their performance was no suprise. What was though is Porsche being the worst! So much for German build quality!

I absolutely put my hat off to Honda on the reliability front. Ive never driven one, wanted one (ok the NSX is cool) or interested in the current line up, but their reliability is renown. When someone asks me to help pick a reliable car, Honda then the other Jap makers are top of my list.
However when looking at Reliability Index's, you have made the fatal error many forum readers do, didnt read the small print. :pac:

The UK Reliability index takes into account all factors of a repair, the cost of the parts and the frequency of failures -

While Porsche are not a reliability driven brand and will not inherently score well in the Survey, their parts and labour prices are way, way higher than Honda's (or any Jap manufacturer). So they basically have no hope of scoring well. The same is true when you look at the VAG brands. Skoda should be the top of the list (then Seat, VW etc), not because they are more reliable (they use the same parts bin after all), but because they are cheaper to fix.

Wossack wrote: »

god I hate this non-story
theres recalls _all_ the time - fooking sheople

WTF? Firstly, Worlds largest car maker recalls some product.. not 10 units, not 1000, but many millions of cars. The sheer volume of this recall is independantly news worthy, doubly so in a Recession.

Triplely so against the backdrop of the Worlds Best built cars and the oddities of how they handled this:
A score of car crashes since 2006, multiple fatalities, preposterous accusations all along (upto 10weeks ago) by Toyota that "aftermarket car mats" were at fault, stereotypical Japanese business culture denial of issue, later admission that reliabiliy focus was dropped in favour of cost savings at the factory level.
Yeah, total non-story there alright.

Guy:Incognito

Wossack wrote: »

god I hate this non-story

theres recalls _all_ the time - fooking sheople

Someone died and 11 more were injured , I think that warrants some attention drawn to an issue.

stimpson

Matt Simis wrote: »

While Porsche's are not a reliability driven brand and will not inherently score well in the Survey, their parts and labour prices are way, way higher than Honda's (or any Jap manufacturer). So they basically have no hope of scoring well. The same is true when you look at the VAG brands. Skoda should be the top of the list (then Seat, VW etc), not because they are more reliable (they use the same parts bin after all), but because they are cheaper to fix.

Sure - but the Porsche is about twice as expensive for parts according to that site, which would account for a score in the 200s, but allowing for that, they are about average on the reliability front. I always assumed they were made like a Swiss watch.

Matt Simis

stimpson wrote: »

Sure - but the Porsche is about twice as expensive for parts according to that site, which would account for a score in the 200s, but allowing for that, they are about average on the reliability front. I always assumed they were made like a Swiss watch.

From talking to Porsche owners, they also seemed to be a lot more demanding than other car owners and tend to report "failures" back to dealers for all sorts of issues that wouldnt be entertained elsewhere.

Zubeneschamali

galwaytt wrote: »

Reliablity does, though, and according to this a Skoda is TWICE as reliable as Merc.

No, that's not a reliability survey either, that's a "cost of warranty" survey. It's carefully constructed so that although the actual number of failures is in there somewhere, you can't see it.

Marlow

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, that's not a reliability survey either, that's a "cost of warranty" survey. It's carefully constructed so that although the actual number of failures is in there somewhere, you can't see it.

True. But that figure will also tell you what it'll cost to maintain your car once you have to fork out yourself, to a certain extend. In comparison to other brands that is.

/M

McSpud

It doesn't really matter what the facts are but I think Toyota will suffer long term damage from the recent incidents. The main reason people buy Toyotas is reliability & now public opinion will trash that - it matters little if it was true in recent years.

JHMEG

150,000 cars were recalled last year in Ireland alone. I didn't know that... who else didn't know?

Matt Simis

JHMEG wrote: »

150,000 cars were recalled last year in Ireland alone. I didn't know that... who else didn't know?

Go on then, whats the source? :cool:

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

Go on then, whats the source? :cool:

Heard Matt Cooper announce it in a "coming up after the break" type clip. Didn't hear any more tho.

unkel

Wossack wrote: »

god I hate this non-story

It's huge story and I doubt we've heard the last of it yet. As it stands the recall is going to cost Toyota $2 BILLION and it has already wiped 20% off the total value of the company (that's another €25 BILLION of value lost)