Hand dead or not?

Coillte_Bhoy

Saw this in a tourney the other night. FT and heads up, Player A in SB calls, Player B says 'all in'. I'm not sure what SB says but presume it's 'call' cos Player B throws his hand in the middle thinking the other player had said 'i can't call' TD was called and rule that Player B's hand is live cos it hasnt been mucked. Thoughts??

It ended ok as both playerrs agreed to take back their stake in that hand and void it.

Four of a kind

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Saw this in a tourney the other night. FT and heads up, Player A in SB calls, Player B says 'all in'. I'm not sure what SB says but presume it's 'call' cos Player B throws his hand in the middle thinking the other player had said 'i can't call' TD was called and rule that Player B's hand is live cos it hasnt been mucked. Thoughts??

It ended ok as both playerrs agreed to take back their stake in that hand and void it.

hey Mick, unless Player A announced "fold" then technicially his hand is not dead. In this instance the player in question(player A definitely said "call")

Player B should also know better than to just throw his hand into the middle of the table as well.

My understanding of things relating to throwing hands into the middle BUT cards not touching the muck is as follows:

Forward moving with either chips or cards is deemed as a call/raise or fold. If someone is angle shooting, then this rule prevents anglers from trying to get a read etc.

So going by this, if a player deliberately throws his hand into the middle of the table but his cards don't touch the muck...should this not also be deemed a dead hand? - going on the premise that forward motion with cards is a dead hand?

I know there are variants on the rule where cards can be retrieved from the muck and made live etc, but I think its a very sloppy area of the rule book, and one that really needs to be sorted once and for all.

Culchie

I was also at this table, but did not get involved as a ruling was called.

I also (thought) heard player A say "I can't call" .... to back that up ...(logically) why else would player B throw in his cards? Luckily for him there was no 'muck' to hit.

Despite copious amounts of Heinekin on board I decided not to get involved:pac: ... however I do feel that player A was let's say ...using his greater experience.

pkr_ennis

Four of a kind wrote: »

I know there are variants on the rule where cards can be retrieved from the muck and made live etc, but I think its a very sloppy area of the rule book, and one that really needs to be sorted once and for all.

I think the rule is crystal clear-

NO HAND IS DEAD UNTIL IRRETRIEVABLE FROM THE MUCK UNLESS COLLUSION HAS BEEN DETECTED.

Sounds like another case of a nit trying to win the pot on a technicality, KITN for player A.

C

Four of a kind

Honestly, I did here Tom say "Call". I also should have ruled that the other players cards should have been dead since he did throw them towards me, but seen as it was a fundraising night, and indeed Tom was the more experienced of the two I was happy to let to go to a split pot if both agreed...which they did.

It happens alot when players lose their concentration during a long tournament and just don't take their time to vocally announce they are doing, whether its raising/folding etc.

And I think this was a typical case of Tom not stating clearly what he was doing, and also the other player not making certain of what was said before folding imo.

pkr_ennis

Four of a kind wrote: »

I also should have ruled that the other players cards should have been dead since he did throw them towards me,

lol

Culchie

Four of a kind wrote: »

Honestly, I did here Tom say "Call". .

Well I was right beside him, and I could swear I heard him say " I don't think I can call" ....but he spoke the word "call" louder than the rest of his mumbled sentence.

I think he knew exactly what he was at.

Four of a kind

pkr_ennis wrote: »

lol

While you may find this funny, I've also seen numerous occasions where players push their cards into the middle of the table(as if they fold) as an angle shoot.


So what happens there in your opinion pkr_ennis? Would you let the player who folds out of turn(deliberately) have his cards back when the player in front of him mucks his?