Tuiseal Ginideach

dambarude

Ceist agam daoibh!

Tuigim conas ainmfhocail a chur sa tuiseal ginideach nuair a bhíonn 'an' ann,
mar shampla
hata an fhir
eireaball an chait

Ach nílim róchinnte nuair nach mbíonn an 'an' sin ann. Feictear domsa nach gcuirtear an séimhiú ann sa chás seo, m.sh,
hata fir
eireaball cait
An bhfuil an ceart agam leis na samplaí thuas? An bhfuil an riail gramadaí i gceart agam (go ndéantar an ainmfhocal a chaomhnú, ach nach ndéantar é a shéimhiú)?

Rinne mé iarracht freagar na ceiste seo a fháil i gcúpla leabhar, ach theip orm freagar ceart a fháil. Míle buíochas.

pog it

Hi Dambarude,
The simple, broad rule is that when you have two nouns coming together with no article 'an'/'na' separating them, then the second noun will go into the genitive, as you know, and it is séimhiúed only if the first noun is feminine. If second noun follows a masculine noun, then second noun does not get a séimhiú.

So this is the same broad rule re. séimhiú that applies to adjectives describing a noun.

There are exceptions though, for example with nouns starting with F that follow after a noun.

I'd recommend reading the free sample chapter on Ranganna.com on adjectives as there is a bit on this topic that is useful.

There's also a scary article on acmhainn.ie that deals with this in-depthly!!

http://http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/seimhiu.htm

dambarude

pog it wrote: »

There's also a scary article on acmhainn.ie that deals with this in-depthly!!

http://http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/seimhiu.htm

That really is a scary article! Thanks for pointing it out pog it. And I'm just after spotting that I said caomhnú instead of caolú in my OP.

pog it

No probs-- that article was pointed out to me by Micilín Muc on here a while back, and it set my head spinning when I first saw it but like all things, when you leave it aside and come back to it more relaxed, it's a lot easier to take in! Must mention that it was when I was asking about F nouns that micilin posted it cause up to then I hadn't realised that you can consider them in the category of d, s and t as guaranteed to throw up exceptions!!

But yeah like you I found it a nightmare finding that out-- there was just one page from Réchúrsa Gramadaí that mentioned it, and all the other grammar books I had didn't really say anything much about it. The Réchúrsa page is good though.. it shows how the second noun gets declined according to the case-- genitive, dative etc.!

dambarude

Grma arís!

I'm a bit of a grammar geek- I really like learning new grammar points, and clarifying things I was unsure of before, so that link you gave is pretty interesting for me! Most of the books I have just do the basic tuiseal ginideach- cathain a úsáidtear é srl. It can be hard to find an answer to a specific, fairly complicated grammar question when so many books just do the basics.

Kwekubo

Here's some more examples and exceptions for the genitive.

teacher3003

Can you post the link to this sample on ranganna.com. I can't find it. Thanks!

Su Campu

And can I ask a stupid question? How can you tell whether a noun is masculine or feminine? It's pretty easy in latin languages, such as Italian or Spanish, as the masculine mostly ends in o and the feminine in a, though it's the opposite for words of Greek origin. In Irish are there any rules for spotting which is which?

Aard

Su Campu wrote: »

How can you tell whether a noun is masculine or feminine?

Oh dear, the $64,000 question!!

While it's not as simple as in Spanish, say, there are a few rules at the very least which give a good idea as to the gender of a noun. The following endings are all masculine, for exampe:

• án: as in cupán
• ín: as in cailín (yep!)
• úr: as in gasúr
• ár: as in urlár
• eoir/óir: as in múinteoir

Generally (but not always, see below) a broad consonant ending to a noun is indicative of masculinity. Bád, bord, féar, solas, etc.
The following endings are feminine:

• eog/óg: as in fuinneog, gasóg
• lann: as in pictiúrlann

Again, nouns with a slender consonant ending tend to be feminine. Of course, there's exceptions: an buachaill is masc.

Really, there's few sweeping statements that can be made here. A lot of it is just intuition. Like at this stage, I will instinctively say "ag ól an bhainne" (terrible example!), even though I'd have to think for a second or two if asked whether "bainne" was masculine or feminine.

The more you read, the easier it gets!

dambarude

Aard wrote: »

The more you read, the easier it gets!

That's what taught me the differences. The more you are exposed to the language the more you will spot what's masculine and feminine. LOOK at where you're seeing 'an' or 'na' used in the TG, look at words when you see the 'h' added in after an, 'an fhuinneog' for example. Eventually you'll 'feel' wrong writing or saying 'an fuinneog'.

Enkidu

For masculine and feminine the rough guide is:

Masculine:
If it end with a:
1. Broad consonant
2. Vowel
3. The diminutives, -ín or -án
4. The "agent" or "job" ending, -óir

Also if it is inherently male, like a bull.

Feminine:
1. Slender ending
2. Ends in -lann, this is because -lann is a feminine noun and compound
nouns always have the gender of the second noun.
3. -óg, the feminine diminutive.

Also countries, languages, geographic features and inherently female things tend to be feminine.

Actually, originally in the thread, pog it was saying that you only séimhiú a noun in the indefinite genitive if the noun is feminine:
hata fir
bróg fhir

This is basically because these things mean "Man-ish hat" or "Man-ish shoe" originally. So you're turning fear = man into an adjective fir = man-ish and then you just follow the normal rules for adjectives after nouns.

Aard

Enkidu wrote: »

Actually, originally in the thread, pog it was saying that you only séimhiú a noun in the indefinite genitive if the noun is feminine:
hata fir
bróg fhir

Never spotted that up-thread. As they say -- something new every day!

Su Campu

So there I was this morning, standing patiently in line in the Post Office, when I read the sign:

Last Collection from this Post Office...
Balilúchán Deiridh san Oifig an Poist seo.....

So the Poist doesn't take a séimhiú because the Oifig is feminine, is that correct. I thought it was a mistake but then I remembered this thread! Fear an Phoist does take one because the Fear is masculine?

By the way, is it not strange that Anpost.ie doesn't have an Irish version?

Insect Overlord

Su Campu wrote: »

So the Poist doesn't take a séimhiú because the Oifig is feminine, is that correct. I thought it was a mistake but then I remembered this thread! Fear an Phoist does take one because the Fear is masculine?

It's the gender/inscne of the second word that matters when it's being put in the TG, not of the first. I reckon you caught a poorly designed sign!

Was there a ponc/dot over the "p" at all?

Su Campu

Insect Overlord wrote: »

It's the gender/inscin of the second word that matters when it's being put in the TG, not of the first. I reckon you caught a poorly designed sign!

Was there a ponc/dot over the "p" at all?

Nope! As I said, it initially struck me as a mistake, it just didn't read right, but I just reckoned I was wrong. I was so unsure that I went back down there to check it again!

Insect Overlord

Su Campu wrote: »

Last Collection from this Post Office...
Balilúchán Deiridh san Oifig an Poist seo.....

I reckon it should read "Bailiúchán deireanach ó hOifig an Phoist seo". "Deiridh" doesn't need to be in the TG there, and the post is collected to be taken away from the office, so "ó" makes more sense to me than "sa".

"Bailiúchán deireanach na hOifige Poist seo" might work too. Might get that confirmed by someone with greater expertise than myself later.

Micilin Muc

Maybe you saw "Bailiúchán deiridh ón Oifig Poist seo"? That would be the easiest and most grammatically accurate way of writing it.

Micilin Muc

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I reckon it should read "Bailiúchán deireanach ó hOifig an Phoist seo". "Deiridh" doesn't need to be in the TG there, and the post is collected to be taken away from the office, so "ó" makes more sense to me than "sa".

"Bailiúchán deireanach na hOifige Poist seo" might work too. Might get that confirmed by someone with greater expertise than myself later.

"Bailiúchán deireanach" means "the most recent collection". "Deireanach" is an adjective.
"Bailiúchán deiridh" means "the final collection". "Deiridh" is the genitive form of the noun "Deireadh".

I think the confusion arises from "deireanach" and "deireadh" both having the same equivalent in English, ie "last" which has a few different meanings in English.

Aard

Sorry to go off topic, but while we're talking about deireanach/deiridh for "last", what's the deal with "An Suipéar Déanach"?

Su Campu

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Maybe you saw "Bailiúchán deiridh ón Oifig Poist seo"? That would be the easiest and most grammatically accurate way of writing it.

You'd think, but it definitely said san!

Micilin Muc

Aard wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic, but while we're talking about deireanach/deiridh for "last", what's the deal with "An Suipéar Déanach"?

I see that's what focal.ie has! That must be wrong. I don't have my dictionaries at home but will check it out on Monday!

The Late Supper?!

Su Campu wrote: »

You'd think, but it definitely said san!

I suppose it could also be "An Bailiúchán Deiridh san Oifig Poist seo". It just means "The last collection in this Post Office", we all know what it's referring to!

Aard

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I see that's what focal.ie has! That must be wrong. I don't have my dictionaries at home but will check it out on Monday!

The Late Supper?!

I know -- it's a bit odd! It's what we were taught all through school as well, even though the students would always say "An Suipéar Deireanach" (which looks wrong now itself, if the whole latest/last thing is anything to go by).