English Studies vs Psychology

FeatherWeather

I'll be doing my LC in 2011 and am trying to figure out what to put on the CAO. What I really want to do study is English Studies, loved the subject all my life, but all I can think of as a realistic career for me after my studies is being a lecturer but I know the chances of landing a brilliant job like that are slim and the experience and qualifications required are huge. I'm also interested in psychology but I'm scared I won't land a brilliant, fulfilling job in that field and spend my life wondering "what if..?" Can anybody in either course fill me in on job opportunities once you've competed your course?

Sir Ophiuchus

First of all, you can apply and do both as a two-subject moderatorship (TSM). That's the course I'm doing right now.

Honestly, I think Leaving Cert is too early to nail down definite future career plans anyway. Study what you love, unless you know you want to be a doctor/lawyer/dentist/whatever. As long as you have a good degree, it'll be an asset to you in anything.

claire h

Both require postgrad study in order to actually really use them... with psychology, to be 'a psychologist' you need further training e.g. masters or doctorate in counselling psychology, doctorate in clinical psychology, research masters, etc etc. With English, need PhD for lecturing, or PGDE (formerly HDipEd) for teaching in secondary school. With either you have 'a degree', which bodes well and is a necessity for various jobs, although it's obviously far less of an impressive qualification than it would have been in the past, given the high % we have going on to third-level education.

I completely second what Sir Ophiuchus has said, though - study what you love. Three or four years is a really long time to be studying something you're not passionate about.

lou91

Track down some second hand introductory textbooks, they'll give you a feel for each one.

TSM definitely isn't for everyone. It may seem like the best of both worlds but you may not get as much of an insight into your subjects as you like. I do Single Honours Psychology and wouldn't really like to do TSM, the bits they don't do seem too important, and make the subject come together more.

FeatherWeather

Have to say I think I'd agree with RandomUserName, I'd rather be set on one and be certain, also I could see myself spending too much time on the english half. Do you mind me asking what you'd like to do after college?
As much as I agree with the idea you should study what you love, I don't want to find myself with a degree I really enjoyed studying for but not being able to find a job...

mattysullivan

I do English Studies, in JF, love it. Ultimately decided that anything else that I would combine it with wouldn't be as enjoyable as the bits of English I would have missed.

Any specific questions about the course?

mattysullivan

Oh and I don't think you should ever choose your course worrying about a job. Do something you're passionate about and you'll find a way to make a living somehow. Seriously, I think if you actually love something and you're willing to hustle like a mofo you can find or invent a career you'll enjoy.

claire h

FeatherWeather wrote: »

As much as I agree with the idea you should study what you love, I don't want to find myself with a degree I really enjoyed studying for but not being able to find a job...

Better than finding yourself with a degree you didn't enjoy studying for and not able to find a job, though, which is how a lot of people have recently found themselves. Nothing absolutely guarantees a job, and keep in mind that your work experience and other activities also play a part in how employable you are, not just what you've studied at degree level.

Karlusss

Is an undergraduate psychology degree a better guarantee of employment than an English degree? I wouldn't have thought so. Just because "psychologist" is a job and "Englishist" isn't doesn't mean one's a lock and the other's not.

I'm in JS TSM doing English with History and while I can see some of the issues with it, there are advantages too.

1. You don't get set into one way of thinking, and you have to be able to fairly quickly switch styles of writing/analysing/etc.
2. There'll be times when you're sick of one and just want to do the other for a while. I've had this both ways several times.
3. You're in with more, different people.
4. loads more stuff.

Psychology could well be tougher to combine with English than History or Philosophy or something like that, but don't rule it out.

FeatherWeather

Really good point Claire, thanks for that!

Yes I don't think TSM is for me, I'd obsess over what I was missing out on!
I'm doing my fourth year work experience in two weeks with Dr Jones and two Lecturers of English actually, so I'm hoping to get chatting about how he got into his job and I think it will help me decide. The more research I do, the farther I lean towards English Studies it seems. I've always been best at it out of all my subjects and I get great enjoyment out of it, so I suppose I'll be alright once I've got the interest judging on the encouragement of everyone here.

I do have one question, it might be a bit irrelevant to the thread but I'll seize the opportunity. What are the points you're looking out for when reading assigned texts for the course, is it more the features that make good writing or will I still get to do all the themes and character studies like in the Junior Cert?

SligoBrewer

My advice would be to leave yourself open, and don't decide what you want to do now and say "Right, that's that, case closed".

In TY, it's awful early to be weighing up the benefits of English Studies vs TSM English when you haven't even read one of your poets for the Leaving Cert course.

Sir Ophiuchus

FeatherWeather wrote: »

I do have one question, it might be a bit irrelevant to the thread but I'll seize the opportunity. What are the points you're looking out for when reading assigned texts for the course, is it more the features that make good writing or will I still get to do all the themes and character studies like in the Junior Cert?

Dr. Darryl Jones? He's awesome, that'll be one interesting work experience!

In answer to your question: there are many, *many* perspectives to take in analysing a text, and the department does its best to expose you to a lot of them.

In your essays, obviously some titles will suggest a certain approach: "Discuss the importance of Lady Catherine in Pride and Prejudice" might lead into a discussion of how characters relate to form a plot, what Lady Catherine contributes to P&P's plot and why that's important, and why it's important to the text to have her as a representative of the arrogant privileged aristocracy ... for example. But you'll always have loads of choice in what essays you do (and what exam questions you answer) anyway.

"Good writing" is incredibly subjective. There'll be plenty of space for thematic and character analysis along the way, as well as more general approaches. Just because we analyse and interpret writing doesn't mean we forget how to enjoy it.

claire h

FeatherWeather wrote: »

Really good point Claire, thanks for that!

Yes I don't think TSM is for me, I'd obsess over what I was missing out on!
I'm doing my fourth year work experience in two weeks with Dr Jones and two Lecturers of English actually, so I'm hoping to get chatting about how he got into his job and I think it will help me decide. The more research I do, the farther I lean towards English Studies it seems. I've always been best at it out of all my subjects and I get great enjoyment out of it, so I suppose I'll be alright once I've got the interest judging on the encouragement of everyone here.

I do have one question, it might be a bit irrelevant to the thread but I'll seize the opportunity. What are the points you're looking out for when reading assigned texts for the course, is it more the features that make good writing or will I still get to do all the themes and character studies like in the Junior Cert?

Probably be a good idea to sit on a couple of lectures while you're there, and also see if you can get your hands on some sample essay questions or old exam papers, just to give you a sense of what it's like at third level. Probably the biggest jump from second level is the use of literary theory (as well as the ability to actually have your own opinion, but honestly second-level teachers who do their jobs well will have taught you how to do that by Leaving Cert). But plenty of analysis both on the content of literature as well as the style, format and the implications of them, as well as a great deal of choice in what you actually look at.

FeatherWeather

I would agree with leaving myself open but I'll be sending away my CAO in under a year and I want to have as much information on my choices as possible to make sure I'll be making the right decision. I've been researching for quite a while and it will definitely be an ongoing thing so no worries there.

Yes, the very one, I'll admit I'm pretty excited. Oh excellent, the course description wasn't entirely clear and I just wanted to make sure!

Yeah, the lecturers said they'd never done this type of thing before so they plan on having me 'shadow' them, I'll probably be tagging along for lectures. I might stick my head into a couple psychology lectures as well, to settle my conscience more than anything now it seems...
I've had the importance of opinion drilled into me for the past four years, I've been fortunate enough to be taught by two really passionate english teachers :

SligoBrewer

I thought I was set in what I wanted to do, and my CAO changed at least 15 times between January and July.

OP. Chill.

SligoBrewer

mattysullivan wrote: »

Oh and I don't think you should ever choose your course worrying about a job.

I love how this is thanked by a history student.

Monkey61

OP I am going to go against the grain here and say that you DEFINITELY should have a job in mind when choosing a degree. It is a mistake made by many people including myself. I chose English and another arts subject in TSM without really thinking about anything other than that I loved books.

If you want to be an academic in the field of English, if you really really want that, then absolutely go for it. Don't be put off by lack of jobs etc. If you love research, endless library hours and love literary theory and such then go for it.

If you don't actually want this and just want to spend 4 years doing it - then I would encourage you to do this in your own time as a hobby. Without a career in academia in mind there is very little point to doing an English degree over just studying it yourself for the love of it.

As for Psychology...it will require a lot of further study but there are a multitude of defined career paths to pursue out of it. And if you move outside of Ireland (Uk for instance) there is a lot of opportunity for further study and a lot of jobs. It will take several years though - but you will get there in the end. You would want to have an interest though and a job in mind to motivate you through this.

If you don't want a career in academia or in anything psychology related - well neither degree will be better than the other as far as applying for anything else that just needs a basic degree.

As I see it now though, you are in college for four years, but you will be working for the rest of your life - so seriously think about what you want to spend the rest of your life doing and then choose from there.

Of course you can go back and do another degree later (I'm doing this now), but having been to college once I can't afford to pay fees for a second time so I have to do it via distance learning and I won't be finished until I am 30 - which means a lot of time wasted that I could have been using to progress in a career. Also means that my earning potential is severely stunted and I am still as poverty stricken as I was at 19, which is irritating to say the least.

RedDawn

Monkey61 wrote: »

OP I am going to go against the grain here and say that you DEFINITELY should have a job in mind when choosing a degree. It is a mistake made by many people including myself. I chose English and another arts subject in TSM without really thinking about anything other than that I loved books.

If you want to be an academic in the field of English, if you really really want that, then absolutely go for it. Don't be put off by lack of jobs etc. If you love research, endless library hours and love literary theory and such then go for it.

If you don't actually want this and just want to spend 4 years doing it - then I would encourage you to do this in your own time as a hobby. Without a career in academia in mind there is very little point to doing an English degree over just studying it yourself for the love of it.

As for Psychology...it will require a lot of further study but there are a multitude of defined career paths to pursue out of it. And if you move outside of Ireland (Uk for instance) there is a lot of opportunity for further study and a lot of jobs. It will take several years though - but you will get there in the end. You would want to have an interest though and a job in mind to motivate you through this.

If you don't want a career in academia or in anything psychology related - well neither degree will be better than the other as far as applying for anything else that just needs a basic degree.

As I see it now though, you are in college for four years, but you will be working for the rest of your life - so seriously think about what you want to spend the rest of your life doing and then choose from there.

Of course you can go back and do another degree later (I'm doing this now), but having been to college once I can't afford to pay fees for a second time so I have to do it via distance learning and I won't be finished until I am 30 - which means a lot of time wasted that I could have been using to progress in a career. Also means that my earning potential is severely stunted and I am still as poverty stricken as I was at 19, which is irritating to say the least.

Here here.

FeatherWeather

@Monkey, that's exactly the mindset I had when I opened this thread, I've been waiting for somebody to suggest that!
8 years or so is relatively little compared to the rest of my life, you're right. I do agree with what seems to be everybody else's opinion still, that you should study what you love, but you give a very good argument. I do have a career in mind, I dream of spending the rest of my life lecturing on English. What is stopping me going straight for it is my materialism; honestly, I wouldn't be happy without a hefty income and the vacancies for lecturing seem to be fairly slim. I do have the passion but I'm scared of ending up doing what I love but getting nowhere with it. I'm definitely not saying that won't happen if I go for psychology but there seems to be more openings for psychologists and the demand is predicted to rise in Ireland, the prospect of a defined career path also appeals to me whereas the path towards a decent lecturing post seems to be a little more vague. I had thought about doing psychology and told myself I could always go back and do what I really want when I've made some money, but I'd be going for a PhD for a full time lecturing post so the time, effort and money required would put my whole life on halt. I'm also thinking of my parents, I know they would love me to do medicine and psychology might satisfy them, I don't want to have them pay for me to go against them to do what I love regardless of a more uncertain future to find myself running back to them in years to come...
I'd like to say I'm really appreciating everyone's input though, its a relief from my career guidance counsellor's nonsenical waffling!

pathway33

claire h wrote: »

see if you can get your hands on some sample essay questions or old exam papers, just to give you a sense of what it's like at third level.

past exam papers are available publicly online at NUI Maynooth, St. Pats Drumcondra and NUI Galway (don't know if galway do english / psychology). They won't be trinity exams (are they harder?) but will give you an indication of third level

mattysullivan

Monkey61 wrote: »

OP I am going to go against the grain here and say that you DEFINITELY should have a job in mind when choosing a degree. It is a mistake made by many people including myself. I chose English and another arts subject in TSM without really thinking about anything other than that I loved books.

If you want to be an academic in the field of English, if you really really want that, then absolutely go for it. Don't be put off by lack of jobs etc. If you love research, endless library hours and love literary theory and such then go for it.

If you don't actually want this and just want to spend 4 years doing it - then I would encourage you to do this in your own time as a hobby. Without a career in academia in mind there is very little point to doing an English degree over just studying it yourself for the love of it.

As for Psychology...it will require a lot of further study but there are a multitude of defined career paths to pursue out of it. And if you move outside of Ireland (Uk for instance) there is a lot of opportunity for further study and a lot of jobs. It will take several years though - but you will get there in the end. You would want to have an interest though and a job in mind to motivate you through this.

If you don't want a career in academia or in anything psychology related - well neither degree will be better than the other as far as applying for anything else that just needs a basic degree.

As I see it now though, you are in college for four years, but you will be working for the rest of your life - so seriously think about what you want to spend the rest of your life doing and then choose from there.

Of course you can go back and do another degree later (I'm doing this now), but having been to college once I can't afford to pay fees for a second time so I have to do it via distance learning and I won't be finished until I am 30 - which means a lot of time wasted that I could have been using to progress in a career. Also means that my earning potential is severely stunted and I am still as poverty stricken as I was at 19, which is irritating to say the least.

I would ask then: what you suggest doing if your aim is to be employable?

You said to "think about what you want to spend the rest of your life doing then choose from there" but you also said (paraphrasing) "don't do English just because you'd like to do it for 4 years".

For me doing what I love for 4 years seems like a perfect way to get started.
I know I won't have a career handed to me upon graduation, no one does, but I'm willing to work hard and get a job I want after that. I think my degree will help me with what I want to do because I'm spending time doing things I care about, developing ideas, blahdeblahdeblah.

I think you're totally wrong when you say that you could do it in your spare time. What a load of rubbish.

I think if you start with something you love, you can't go wrong.
I think if you start with a job in mind, it's a whole lot easier to end up with something you hate.

Monkey61

mattysullivan wrote: »

I think you're totally wrong when you say that you could do it in your spare time. What a load of rubbish.

I think if you start with something you love, you can't go wrong.
I think if you start with a job in mind, it's a whole lot easier to end up with something you hate.

Sorry what? It is a load of rubbish to suggest that somebody could read books and literary theory in their spare time for the love of it?

claire h

Monkey61 wrote: »

Sorry what? It is a load of rubbish to suggest that somebody could read books and literary theory in their spare time for the love of it?

I think the load-of-rubbishness is the idea that someone could get as much out of their 'spare time' leisure pursuits as they would out of a formal degree and all the assessment, structure, guidance, and time that it includes. No one ever suggests that someone does, say, physics in their 'spare time', but some people do seem to think that the humanities are so absurdly easy or unchallenging that one can just read a couple of books after a day at work and know it all.

Monkey61

claire h wrote: »

I think the load-of-rubbishness is the idea that someone could get as much out of their 'spare time' leisure pursuits as they would out of a formal degree and all the assessment, structure, guidance, and time that it includes. No one ever suggests that someone does, say, physics in their 'spare time', but some people do seem to think that the humanities are so absurdly easy or unchallenging that one can just read a couple of books after a day at work and know it all.

Ah right I get you now...that wasn't my point at all though (I presumed that it was being suggested that studying anything for the love of it without getting a qualification at the end was somehow less worthy!) - maybe it's different for other humanities degrees, but my English degree was entirely based on book learning, none of which I couldn't have as validly learned in my spare time. The only difference being that if I wanted a career in English studies based academia, that outside college learning wouldn't have been taken seriously without the documents to back it up.

By the way I would totally suggest that someone does physics in their spare time - if they loved it but had no interest in a career in a science related field as they wanted to be an English lecturer.