Knocking an internal load bearing wall - Permission?

shaydy

Hi,
I'm no diy person so please bear with me:o

I live in a standard 3 bed semi, circa 1100 square foot, the design is sitting room, double doors into dining room then there's a wall and a door from the dining room into the kitchen.

I'm thinking about knocking the dining room wall down, it's a brick wall with rads on both sides (one double in kitchen, one single in dining room).

Couple of questions, it would be great if anyone can help;

1. Do I need planning permission to knock the wall?
2. Any suggestions for the loss of heat? I was thinking of putting a double rad on the far side of the dining room?
3. Is there a standard size RSJ used for this type of work? (General question i know but if any builders have experience in houses of this size you might know?)
4. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Stuxnet

hi, no you don't need planning for type of work,
a double rad as big as you can get is a great idea and probably your only solution,
thirdly i did nearly exact same thing you talk about in my parents house a few years ago, to a load bearing wall also,

what i did was i left 9 inches on either side of the wall i was breaking through, (doesn't have to be 9, i just picked 9 as i had the room)
that way i was able put in a small 4 inch concrete lintel down about 9 inches from joists and build it up tight with bricks to the ceiling to retake the weight of the joists above, i killed off this nib in the room then by building a small arch from timber and ply, slabbed it, and plastered, bobs your uncle, looked perfect afterwards, and most importantly it was still load bearing
i'm a chippy myself so it was easy enough, its not a big job either !

good luck

mickdw

You will need to get a calculation done re the steel for this job based on the size of the opening & the loading from above. Suggesting structural details is not allowed on here I think. Do you want a flush ceiling or are you happy with a beam running through?

Poor Uncle Tom

shaydy wrote: »

Hi,
I'm no diy person so please bear with me:o

I live in a standard 3 bed semi, circa 1100 square foot, the design is sitting room, double doors into dining room then there's a wall and a door from the dining room into the kitchen.

I'm thinking about knocking the dining room wall down, it's a brick wall with rads on both sides (one double in kitchen, one single in dining room).

Couple of questions, it would be great if anyone can help;

1. Do I need planning permission to knock the wall?
2. Any suggestions for the loss of heat? I was thinking of putting a double rad on the far side of the dining room?
3. Is there a standard size RSJ used for this type of work? (General question i know but if any builders have experience in houses of this size you might know?)
4. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Please read the charter before posting again. The following is taken from the charter.
On construction related matters any specifying of structural components is prohibited. Any queries in this regard need to be dealt with by an architect/engineer privately.

shaydy

Thanks Bobby & Mick, some good food for thought. Apologies to the mods also.

Mick, where would I get a calculation done on the steele needed?

Cheers;)
Shay

mickdw

shaydy wrote: »

Thanks Bobby & Mick, some good food for thought. Apologies to the mods also.

Mick, where would I get a calculation done on the steele needed?

Cheers;)
Shay

You will need an Engineer. If you were selling in future, the buyers would most likely look for some form of certification to show that a cowboy job wasnt done. An Engineer would look after all this for you.

acb365

usually a <SNIP> rsj is used






Mod edit: Infracted, read the forum charter.

scruttox

Hi, no PP required for that job. But you DO need the following:

1. A Structural Engineer to carry out loading Calc's for whats above.
2. A registered / competent / INSURED builder to do the job.
3. Local Building Control Officer to verify work done according to reg's.

As mentioned previously, if you intend selling the property in the future, potential buyers will get surveyor (or should anyway) to check house out. He will see work done and ask for a Certificate of compedence or worthiness or whatever to rule out a cowboy hatchet job. If you aint got one, your up the creek.

Moving the existing kitchen rad to far diningroom wall is a messy job. When the wall comes down the pipework is going to be re-routed for the new rad. So your going to have to pull master bedroom floor up and run new pipes across to the far wall and down.

Ive seen it done on a few houses and it does open up space nicely.

If you've done it, lets know how you got on?

Cheers

johnnorthbrady

iPwnage wrote: »

hi, no you don't need planning for type of work,
a double rad as big as you can get is a great idea and probably your only solution,
thirdly i did nearly exact same thing you talk about in my parents house a few years ago, to a load bearing wall also,

what i did was i left 9 inches on either side of the wall i was breaking through, (doesn't have to be 9, i just picked 9 as i had the room)
that way i was able put in a small 4 inch concrete lintel down about 9 inches from joists and build it up tight with bricks to the ceiling to retake the weight of the joists above, i killed off this nib in the room then by building a small arch from timber and ply, slabbed it, and plastered, bobs your uncle, looked perfect afterwards, and most importantly it was still load bearing
i'm a chippy myself so it was easy enough, its not a big job either !

good luck

Hi there,

I am looking at knocking down a supporting wall in my living room to give extra space. I am wondering if it would be possible for me to place a H steel beam up on front of the wall supported by 6" bricks first. This would be the new support, then knock the supporting wall. Or does the new support wall have to go exactly where the old wall was.

Thanks,
John

Poor Uncle Tom

John, this is a structural matter and as such we can not comment on it here as it is against the forum charter. Please contact your structural engineer for advice.

johnnorthbrady

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

John, this is a structural matter and as such we can not comment on it here as it is against the forum charter. Please contact your structural engineer for advice.

ok, thanks.

Mellor

johnnorthbrady wrote: »

ok, thanks.

It's worth mentioning, while we don't discuss individual structural cases, you probably can't do the above even with the help of an engineer. Most likely the beam has to go where the wall is as the joists are probably supported, in, on or off the wall.

johnnorthbrady

Mellor wrote: »

It's worth mentioning, while we don't discuss individual structural cases, you probably can't do the above even with the help of an engineer. Most likely the beam has to go where the wall is as the joists are probably supported, in, on or off the wall.

Thanks Mellor,

I thought it would be easier to put up a new beam first before knocking the wall. However to play it safe I will replace beam where the wall is.

Thanks,
John

archtech

johnnorthbrady wrote: »

Thanks Mellor,

I thought it would be easier to put up a new beam first before knocking the wall. However to play it safe I will replace beam where the wall is.

Thanks,
John

best get yourself a structural engineer before doing anything

Supernintento Chalmers

I'm looking to get this done.
What sort of cost is involved?
Roughly speaking of course.

cerastes

archtech wrote: »

best get yourself a structural engineer before doing anything

I asked this in another thread, what exactly is a structural engineer? didnt hear back???
Would an architect come under this heading or a draftsperson? who does a person in domestic scenario go to (e.g. attic conversion or as the OP above removing a load bearing wall to be replaced by RSJ)

As this is in a similar idea as what Im thinking (internal changes) I wont start a new thread unless it is deemed necessary.
I'm looking to see who I might get to do drawings for an attic conversion and some other changes which I will probably do myself.
Its well off in the future, so its just a plan at this stage, but I want to see what I'd get, instead of not knowing until its done.

I've come across a few conversions and it seems It seems most people just get someone in, lash away and see what fits, some I'm not convinced by the outcome. I'm going to measure up what I've got and just draw it out by hand to see what could fit. Id rather get drawings done and have someone work off that, than just have someone come in and make their own decision.
So who would need to be involved?
Structural engineer? for the roof? or could a draftsperson just be needed?
I have been told you could do up the drawings your self if you were ok at that, been a while, but its the structural strength and adequate insulation, Id like to see some calculations on. I'd be happy to meet the structural requirements but would prefer overdo the insulation. I've seen some houses with converted attics, where any snow always melts much quicker and in adhoc patches faster than nearby unconverted attics, makes me wonder?? what else has been done wrong?

The other changes are, I dont know how they came up with the layout of my upstairs, but its very wasteful of space. I think the walls dont support the roof as Im sure it was slabbed out with plasterboard before the internal walls went up, the roof is a pre fab trussed construction.
Basically, my hall is very wide in two directions, with the hotpress right in the middle.
Im thinking of placing some new internal walls upstairs to expand some room, then taking down the existing wall, making the hall tiny but the rooms either bigger or just have a better use of space. The existing walls are not above load bearing walls either, or just above other wooden framed walls. Nothing is planned for anytime soon a number of reasons, but it would definitely increase space, I'm doing up some measured out drawings, just to see what is above what. Could internal upstairs walls be supporting the attic/roof frames? even if they are, I think replacing the internal walls with other internal walls wont make too much of a difference??

Gumbo

Supernintento Chalmers wrote: »

I'm looking to get this done.
What sort of cost is involved?
Roughly speaking of course.

Depends on the wall, what load it's taking, and thus what size steel has to go in. Then it spends on what finishes you need to make the area good and match what's there already. Then it depends on the span/length of wall.

Possibly 5k as a ballpark figure based on your typical wall in your typical house.

Only real way of finding out is to get an engineer to see what's happening with the structure, design a beam and bearing details, produce a drawing and then get a quote from a builder.

cerastes wrote: »

I asked this in another thread, what exactly is a structural engineer? didnt hear back???
Would an architect come under this heading or a draftsperson? who does a person in domestic scenario go to (e.g. attic conversion or as the OP above removing a load bearing wall to be replaced by RSJ)

As this is in a similar idea as what Im thinking (internal changes) I wont start a new thread unless it is deemed necessary.
I'm looking to see who I might get to do drawings for an attic conversion and some other changes which I will probably do myself.
Its well off in the future, so its just a plan at this stage, but I want to see what I'd get, instead of not knowing until its done.

I've come across a few conversions and it seems It seems most people just get someone in, lash away and see what fits, some I'm not convinced by the outcome. I'm going to measure up what I've got and just draw it out by hand to see what could fit. Id rather get drawings done and have someone work off that, than just have someone come in and make their own decision.
So who would need to be involved?
Structural engineer? for the roof? or could a draftsperson just be needed?
I have been told you could do up the drawings your self if you were ok at that, been a while, but its the structural strength and adequate insulation, Id like to see some calculations on. I'd be happy to meet the structural requirements but would prefer overdo the insulation.

The other changes are, I dont know how they came up with the layout of my upstairs, but its very wasteful of space. I think the walls dont support the roof as Im sure it was slabbed out with plasterboard before the internal walls went up, the roof is a pre fab trussed construction.
Basically, my hall is very wide in two directions, with the hotpress right in the middle.
Im thinking of placing some new internal walls upstairs to expand some room, then taking down the existing wall, making the hall tiny but the rooms either bigger or just have a better use of space. The existing walls are not above load bearing walls either, or just above other wooden framed walls. Nothing is planned for anytime soon a number of reasons, but it would definitely increase space, I'm doing up some measured out drawings, just to see what is above what. Could internal upstairs walls be supporting the attic/roof frames? even if they are, I think replacing the internal walls with other internal walls wont make too much of a difference??

If there is no planning required, you could :

Get a draughtsman/technician to do the drawings.
An engineer to design the structure for the attic and to ensure the new structure can take the loads associated with it.
Same engineer will inspect and certify the works.

Supernintento Chalmers

kceire wrote: »

Depends on the wall, what load it's taking, and thus what size steel has to go in. Then it spends on what finishes you need to make the area good and match what's there already. Then it depends on the span/length of wall.

Possibly 5k as a ballpark figure based on your typical wall in your typical house.

Wow, sorry, I wasn't clear.
I only want to opening an opening about a metre wide, for an internal door.
The wall is running down the middle of a two storey house.
Someone else will be making the opening good afterwards.
I'm just interested in knowing what sort of money I'd have to pay a builder to create the opening.

cerastes

kceire wrote: »

If there is no planning required, you could :

Get a draughtsman/technician to do the drawings.
An engineer to design the structure for the attic and to ensure the new structure can take the loads associated with it.
Same engineer will inspect and certify the works.

I'd assume there is no planning required, wouldnt consider windows to front for that reason, but would need to confirm that.

What about internal walls upstairs? most aren't above load bearing walls on the ground floor so I assume they are propping rather than supporting the roof above.
It would be an awkward enough job to do, so I imagine if it was being done, I'd do it at the same time as an attic conversion as there would need to be re-routing plumbing work to do that anyway, which would be well in the future. I could get a structural engineer to give me advice if it ever goes ahead,
but Im curious would this generally be the case that internal walls upstairs (wooden frames slabbed with plasterboard) are not supporting the roof, but rather helping keep things in place??