Who has been worse for Ireland: England or the Catholic Church?

cafecolour

Between two - to my eyes - equally demonized folks around these parts, I'm curious who raises the most vitriol.

m@cc@

There's only one way to find out:



FIIIGGGHHTTTT!!!

Agricola

I wouldnt like to live on the difference!

drunkmonkey

there's no point blaming todays problems on the past, were masters of our own destiny.

phasers

Those British Catholics.

4zn76tysfajdxp

phasers wrote: »

Those British Catholics.

brummytom has a lot to answer for. :mad:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Neither - Fianna Fail.

mikom

Giant douche or a turd sandwich, to be honest

Dubs

People always see these things as having been purely negative to Irish history but theyve done some good aswell. Chances are if we wouldnt be as well developed as we are today if it wasnt for either of them. The Catholic church itself isnt bad, just some of the people in it which give the entire thing a bad name. I'm not catholic btw.

People need to stop bitching about the bad things they did in the past and move on. It creates nothing put hate towards people who didnt do anything wrong. i.e. the current english population and good priests.

jaffa20

The Church.

Wait, did the british build those too?

Sod'o swords

Well, ~50%* of our exports go to England, and they Church own most* of the educational institutes in the country.
So, dispite being in the spot of economical bother we are now, i doubt it would be much better without the above.

Granted i totally disagree with all forms of organized religion, but that's how it is.

*Could of changed since i read last.

kraggy

Is the grammar fail in the title bugging anyone else?

thetonynator

Sod'o swords wrote: »

Well, ~50%* of our exports go to England, and they Church own most* of the educational institutes in the country.
So, dispite being in the spot of economical bother we are now, i doubt it would be much better without the above.

Granted i totally disagree with all forms of organized religion, but that's how it is.

*Could of changed since i read last.

Do you prefer disorganised religion, i.e. anarchism???

thetonynator

kraggy wrote: »

Is the grammar fail in the title bugging anyone else?

If you let grammer bother you on boards you might as well just log off and never come back now!!!:p

Choke

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Neither - Fianna Fail.

That doesn't make sense if one reads the question.

cafecolour

Granted, it might be more amusing to imagine alternate histories without them then complain about their influence now.

Like what if Ireland had been colonized (starting from the southeast) by the French instead.

Or if the initial Arab/Muslim invasion into Spain somehow made it up to Ireland and held, and Ireland was now a predominantly Islamic Spanish speaking country.

Or if Ireland had repelled everyone and was still some sort of pagan Irish speaking country.

Granted, if Ireland had been anything but Christian at any point in the last 1000 years, they'd likely been forcibly converted with a Crusade, but all these scenarios are pretty unlikely anyway.

Pride Fighter

In the 17th and 18th century there were famines that killed 1/4 of the population. More in terms of population than the great famine. There was also the great famine which killed 1/8 of the population at that time. Caused by the English. They continued to export foodstuffs during all those famines to feed themselves while we starved.

Catholic church, ruined the lives of people psychologically for the past century.

English ftw.

cafecolour

kraggy wrote: »

Is the grammar fail in the title bugging anyone else?

Whoops. Don't think I can edit the title after the fact. At least I didn't confuse two/to/too as well

kraggy

cafecolour wrote: »

Whoops. Don't think I can edit the title after the fact. At least I didn't confuse two/to/too as well

You can.

Dr. Baltar

Considering it was by order of the church under Pope Adran IV tht Henry become lord of Ireland, the church is responsible for the English and therefore is so much worse than the English.

brummytom

cafecolour wrote: »

Between two - to my eyes - equally demonized folks around these parts, I'm curious who raises the most vitriol.

Oh fuck



*hides*

gonnaplayrugby

cafecolour wrote: »

Granted, it might be more amusing to imagine alternate histories without them then complain about their influence now.

Like what if Ireland had been colonized (starting from the southeast) by the French instead.

Or if the initial Arab/Muslim invasion into Spain somehow made it up to Ireland and held, and Ireland was now a predominantly Islamic Spanish speaking country.

Or if Ireland had repelled everyone and was still some sort of pagan Irish speaking country.

Granted, if Ireland had been anything but Christian at any point in the last 1000 years, they'd likely been forcibly converted with a Crusade, but all these scenarios are pretty unlikely anyway.

the west of ireland speaking spanish might have been a reality if history had gone another way.

i was reading a while back about a planned colony 'new vienna' in waterford. apparently thousands of people from vienna were to be resettled in this new colony of sorts which would have it's own laws and stuff. would have been interesting.

Dr. Baltar

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Considering it was by order of the church under Pope Adran IV tht Henry become lord of Ireland, the church is responsible for the English and therefore is so much worse than the English.

At least Henry VIII told the pope to Fcuk off!

cafecolour

kraggy wrote: »

You can.

Apparently so, now that I found the go advanced button. Is there a way to edit the polls?

zonEEE

looks like the atheists are out tonight

gonnaplayrugby

should this poll not include the anglo-normans? the scottish settlers in the north? and the vikings?

m@cc@

Deleted User wrote: »

At least Henry VIII told the pope to Fcuk off!

Worked out bad for us in the end.

cafecolour

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

i was reading a while back about a planned colony 'new vienna' in waterford. apparently thousands of people from vienna were to be resettled in this new colony of sorts which would have it's own laws and stuff. would have been interesting.

That would've been interesting. Paraguay has a settle of german's in it from like a century ago (added by new waves, include escaping nazis) that still speak German.

cafecolour

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

should this poll not include the anglo-normans? the scottish settlers in the north? and the vikings?

Well, I'd really include the anglo-normans and the scottish settlers in the broadly English category - the former since they basically integrated and became a large part of 'modern' England (and Ireland), and the latter since they were basically settled on the impetus of the English king.

Really though, I was interested more in the current cultural view then historical accuracy. I've never heard anyone complain about the Vikings

cafecolour

cafecolour wrote: »

Really though, I was interested more in the current cultural view then historical accuracy. I've never heard anyone complain about the Vikings

The ginger ones... :pac:

pirelli

I saw a documentary about ireland where it gave a brief history of ireland. Apart from what is and isn't true about the english it appears that this documentary protrayed in part O'Neill as a treachourous double agent who stabbed the english in the back as often as he could.

However this when they were breathing down our necks but Ireland were still a seperate country with a religious freedom and might have remained so IMO had O'Neill not conspired with the spanish and joined a force of spanish troops in the south west of ireland to fight the english.

O'Neill was negligent and positioned the army where he had thought the calvary would be unable to gain access. He however overlooked a small forde and the english calvary got through and slaughtered everyone.

So now we had no friends in spain because O'Neill screwed up again. The english became our closest enemies.Hence the 400 years rule.

Ireland was at the english armies mercy after this final betrayal. They enforced english laws which were the same in britain such as irish had to wear certain clothes and cut their hair etc.. but this is why ireland was ruled by the english.

Perhaps the english might have ruled ireland had O'Neill not interfered on our behalf and or perhaps the future would be better.

Considering the english ruled that no catholic could inherit land ( thanks to O'Neill) i think it's an usual Poll. We suffered 400 years for our religion( no thanks to O'Neill ) and now some people claim the english were better.

It would be easier if you considered if corrupt bishops and treacherous irishmen were worse for this country than the english. If so then why do we tolerate them. We didn't have a civil war for nothing.

m@cc@

cafecolour wrote: »

That would've been interesting. Paraguay has a settle of german's in it from like a century ago (added by new waves, include escaping nazis) that still speak German.

There's a region of South America known as Patagonia that has a Welsh-speaking contingent (only about 20,000).

DaveSlats

Sort of a silly question.

Without England the Catholic Church would never have gained the power it did.

For a long time, as more recently in Poland, it was the only open or vocal opposition.

A dominant Catholic Church was all that was left to fill the vacuum when the Brits left.

It is a legacy of English rule.

the_syco

Mixed bag, tbh. The church gave food to the poor, but also did f**ked up things. The English invasion was a f**kup, but they provided the farmer with ways to farm the land better.

Sanjuro

I was baptised a Catholic, raised in a fiercly Republican family, hated the English for a long time (until I copped the f*** on), but even I have to say, the Catholic Church is the worst thing to hit this country. That the government is still subservient to this outdated, archaic institution is a savage indictment of our country.

neil_hosey

the_syco wrote: »

Mixed bag, tbh. The church gave food to the poor, but also did f**ked up things. The English invasion was a f**kup, but they provided the farmer with ways to farm the land better.

Yes, yes they did... on land that they stole on said farmers! :cool:

kev9100

While the Catholic church has had an incredibly pervasive and lurid influence on Irish society, the real bastards are the one's who gave it so much power in the first place. Thank you Eamonn De Valera.