Converting three-bed to two-bed

Dudess

Apartment, three bedrooms - one a reasonably sized double (en suite) but the others are a box single and a (match)box with a double bed. Much too small.

So... here's the idea: to knock the wall between the two small rooms and build another wall much further down between them so that the box single becomes a storage room with just enough space for a single bed (handy for a guest staying) and the box double becomes a decent sized bedroom.

Good or bad idea? This would change the description of the place from three-bed apartment to two-bed apartment obviously - would it drastically reduce the value? Would two decent sized bedrooms and a storage room not be better than one decent-sized bedroom plus two overly small ones though?

Advice appreciated.

antiskeptic

Dudess wrote: »

Apartment, three bedrooms - one a reasonably sized double (en suite) but the others are a box single and a (match)box with a double bed. Much too small.

So... here's the idea: to knock the wall between the two small rooms and build another wall much further down between them so that the box single becomes a storage room with just enough space for a single bed (handy for a guest staying) and the box double becomes a decent sized bedroom.

Good or bad idea? This would change the description of the place from three-bed apartment to two-bed apartment obviously - would it drastically reduce the value? Would two decent sized bedrooms and a storage room not be better than one decent-sized bedroom plus two overly small ones though?

Assuming that the wall to be demolished is a "stud partition" (which it most likely is) and not concrete/block, there is little problem doing what you suggest. Constructing a new stud partition a little bit further down the way would be pretty straightforward and not that expensive (especially considering the easy availability of construction labour nowadays).

It would simplify things if you didn't have to shift the door to the new guest room or the door to the now enlarged bedroom) - although this isn't such a big deal either. Ideally, you'd place your new wall on one or other side of the "matchbox" bedrooms window - it'd be a bit of a bodge to place the wall so that there's a bit of that window in either of the new rooms. There is the small matter of the lighting. Is there a centre light in each room now - or spots? You can appreciate that moving a wall means the centre light isn't in the centre anymore - but it shouldn't be a big deal to alter that.

An average handyman would be able to do all the work (including shifting electrical sockets) in 2-3 days.

After that you've only got new floor coverings and some paintwork to consider.

In terms of value alteration I wouldn't worry too much. The costs wouldn't be so great as to prevent reinstating-to-original-spec come sale time. Even better: you could offer the prospective purchaser the option of either the modified or the original layout - increasing your saleability, perhaps.

Dudess

antiskeptic wrote: »

Assuming that the walls are "stud partitions"

Yup.

It would simplify things if you didn't have to shift the door to the new guest room (or the door to the now enlarged bedroom) - although this isn't such a big deal either. Ideally, you'd place your new wall on one or other side of the "matchbox" bedrooms window - it'd be a bit of a bodge to place the wall so that there's a bit of that window in either room.

No need for any door-shifting and the new wall would be just at the point where the window of the smallest room begins.

Thanks a mil antiskeptic!

antiskeptic

My pleasure. Note my edit above re: lighting, but again, that's not a big deal. The only obstacle of any potential note is getting the right person for the job.

If you've a good recommendation in that dept. then you're in business.

antiskeptic

One further thought:

A standard partition wall consists of a wodden frame constructed of (the proverbial) 4"x 2" lengths of wood with sheets of 1/2" plasterboard screwed/nailed onto each side to form the wall. There's nothing stopping you making the wall a bit 'thicker' and using the cavity between the plasterboard sheeting as a storage cupboard. You simply cut away the plasterboard on one side and add doors in place (along with small modification to the frame).

Obviously the thicker the wall, the more of the wall you'd want to be utilising as storage so as to maximise utilisation of overall space. You could extend thickness to providing yourself with a built-in wardrobe if you like.

Dudess

Think the actual light fixtures can be left as they are, but a light switch would have to be moved all right. Thanks again - great advice/info for me who has not a clue! :pac:

mkahnisbent

Apartment prices are going to be destroyed by this recession so any loss in price due to reducing the number of rooms will be negligible.

Victor

It may be against the lease that the apartment owner has with the management company to make alterations.

There may be planning permission issues - development may be required to have a certain number of 3-bed apartments.

A 3-bed apartment will always be perceived as better than a 2-bed.

Not to be entered into lightly

antiskeptic

Victor wrote: »

It may be against the lease that the apartment owner has with the management company to make alterations.

There may be planning permission issues - development may be required to have a certain number of 3-bed apartments.

Solution: don't put up an advertisement on door to the apartment complex saying that alterations are underway. This is Ireland, so Irish solutions should apply

A 3-bed apartment will always be perceived as better than a 2-bed.

Not to be entered into lightly

The work shouldn't cost anymore than max. 600 quid (excluding new floor covering/painting). So no big deal if you wanted to revert to the 3 bed come sale time. Sheesh, if you planned it right you could make it so that the new wall lends itself to being unbolted and shifted back to the 3 bed configuration; a bit of plaster filling and a lick of paint and you'd be done/

Victor

antiskeptic wrote: »

Solution: don't put up an advertisement on door to the apartment complex saying that alterations are underway. This is Ireland, so Irish solutions should apply

Someone might cop the building materials and the construction noises.

antiskeptic

Victor wrote: »

Someone might cop the building materials and the construction noises.

Wrap everything in brown paper with a passable impression of IKEA written on it in black marker.. and you should be okay.

Depends on if you want it enough I suppose (he say's, thinking of his mate who's just hidden a 1400 sq. ft., 4 bedroom house behind the facade of his ex-2 bed cottage in Rathgar. Without permission of course!)

Ireland. Don't you just love it!

loyatemu

if years of watching "property ladder" have taught me anything, its that removing a bedroom from a property always reduces its value (well maybe not if your changing from a 8-bed to a 7-bed, but in smaller properties, yes).

athtrasna

antiskeptic wrote: »

Wrap everything in brown paper with a passable impression of IKEA written on it in black marker.. and you should be okay.

Eh...risk legal action by the Management Company?? That would be plain stupid.

OP I presume you saw the apartment before you bought it?? If so you knew what you were buying...except you weren't buying it, you were buying a lease...you effectively don't own the apartment and should not alter the structure of it.

antiskeptic

athtrasna wrote: »

Eh...risk legal action by the Management Company?? That would be plain stupid.

I used to live in Holland - one of the most regulated countries in the world (where they eg: use satellite imagery to check for planning/building transgressions - and where people take suitable precautions when transgressing so)

This is Ireland.

It's a couple of hundred measly quid for a stud partition wall.

Live a little..

mkahnisbent

Yes I assume this is your apartment, not a leased apartment?!

Dudess

Thanks for all the tips folks - from both sides!

bernyh

Hiya

Might be wrong, but being an apartment owner, we were told that we don't actually "own the bricks and mortar we only own the air space" (solicitors words not ours). So we are not allowed to alter the interior ie the walls etc......

Having said that... we are thinking about putting a stud wall up between the kitchen and sitting room, just for asthetics (and plain laziness... I don't wanna look at those pots that need washing whilst I am enjoying Desperate houswives!!)

I would imagine that as long as you replace it before you sell (as there would have to be a surveyor report on the place pre sale) who cares....

Would love to know if you "get away with it" if you go ahead....

Good luck

How Strange

It's true that according to your lease you are not supposed to make any permanent changes to the internal structure of the apartments which would affect how they are classified on the schedule kept by the management company.

That said, plenty of people do and I can't see a management company taking legal action against you for doing it.

However, afaik, you would be obliged to put the wall back if you intended to sell as it is categorised as a 3 bed apartment on the schedule kept by the management company and all legal correspondence and documents will be for a 3 bed apartment.

astrofool

management fee will also likely be different for a 3 bed.

athtrasna

mkahnisbent wrote: »

Yes I assume this is your apartment, not a leased apartment?!

When you "buy" an apartment you actually buy a lease. Ours is 1,000 years, well 994 now!!

The_Conductor

Typically- a 3 bed apartment will almost always sell for 12-15% more than a 2 bed apartment, irrespective of bedroom size.

Its a very simple alteration to make- removing a stud (partition) wall and moving electrical sockets etc. The change will have minimal costs associated with it- however it will knock a lump off the value of your apartment (the inverse of this- is it will be the most saleable 2 bedroom apartment in the place......)

Personally- if I were in your position- and I had no intention of trying to sell the place for a long long time- I'd bite the bullet and get it done. There is a lot to be said for the extra comfort a reasonable sized bedroom can afford.

antoinolachtnai

Ultimately that's the thing. If you are planning to live in it for a long time, it really doesn't matter what the effect on valuation is. But it will effect the value. Also, think about whether this will suit you for the long term.

You could leave the extra door in so that it would be easier to break the rooms up again if you decide to do that.

I don't see a big problem with the management company. It really depends what it says in the actual lease. There wouldn't be a problem per se with what you are proposing, in my opinion, but there might be a requirement to seek permission. It is certainly worth reading the lease.

Victor

astrofool wrote: »

management fee will also likely be different for a 3 bed.

I strongly suspect you won't be getting a discount for making it a 2-bed.

The_Conductor

Victor wrote: »

I strongly suspect you won't be getting a discount for making it a 2-bed.

We were discussing that here last year- and decided to base the management charge on apartment 'size' (square footage as per the original sales descriptions) rather than no. of bedrooms. Perhaps its a similar idea that could be pursued elsewhere.

A number of our units have had their hallways incorporated into kitchens (the most common alteration), two of the smaller bedrooms knocked into one larger livable bedroom, and in a surprising number of cases, downstairs WCs installed under the stairs.

In general, providing the alteration has no bearing on the structural integrity of the building, no outside alterations occur, and any works are between specified hours (normally to be complete by 6PM in the evening), they get the go-ahead from the management company, subject to a statement that no planning permission is necessary being provided.

S.