Runnin Phone over Cat5e/Patch panel??

Calibos

Thought I better start my own thread for this rather than taking other peoples threads off topic. I may have touched on it in other threads though so please don't take this as spamming the question.

In another thread some of you guys suggested running more Cat5e runs. I was already going to install 2 runs to each room anyway, but 1 of the runs in each room would be for phone(Sky Multiroom STB's) I didn't want to run any more Cat5e because it pushes me over into needing yet another wall plate. A lot of the rooms will already have an aesthetically displeasing amount of wall plates for Mains, TV Sat Hdmi etc, 5.1 sound etc.

But your points did persuade me that maybe I shouldn't wire the 'Phone' Cat5e runs to RJ11 sockets. My plan now would be to use RJ45 sockets on the 'Phone' Cat 5e and at that end if there is a Sky box in that room just Crimp an RJ45 connector on the end of the RJ11 cables connected to the Sky Boxes. If there is no Sky Box in that room I have two functional Ethernet sockets. If in a Sky box room I eventually need 2 Ethernet points then I just use one of the RJ45 Cable Economiser Dongles to share the socket between Data and Sky box. In other words, where before in the above scenario I would have fitted a small 4 port switch to share the single data port, now with 2 Data capable ports I would only need to spend 2 or 3 euro on a dongle instead of 20 or 30 on a powered switch.

Well thats that end of the cables sorted. Now for the other end. What do I do on the other end. Terminate all Cat5e in a patch panel? Is it a case of punching down all Cat5e runs and all RJ45 ports on the patch panel connected to the switch with patch cables meaning all Cat 5e runs are active in terms of Data. 8x Rooms x2 cables = 16 port patch panel and 16 port gigabit switch. The adsl router will be downstairs near the Eircom master socket. The router, a dect phone and the line running up to the attic will be plugged into an adsl filter. The phone line running up to the attic where the Cat5e Patch panel and gigabit switch will be, will feed the 'Phone' sockets for the Sky boxes in each room. ie. I presume this line coming from below will be shared/split with its own mini patch panel kinda thing to give me the 8 twisted pairs I need. What I want to know is how I connect these telephone pairs to the Cat5e pairs. Do I just punch down these telephone twisted pairs down over the appropriate Cat 5e pairs(middle 4 I think) in the cat5e patch panel??

I know I am not explaining myself very well but I hope someone can understand it and answer:D

FusionNet

Hi There

Although you do run the risk of looking like an office I am a fan of always running enough cables never to have to look for them again. When we're installing we always say to clients "Id rather have em and not be looking for them than to need em and not have em"...

With regard the telephone. Hmm it depends how many points you have but I would definately not do what you were suggesting. The whole idea of having a structured cabling system in place that it can handle any medium. Now if you punch down telephone pairs directly onto your existing cat5e patch panel, you dont have a structured cabling system, you have an expensive joining kit, also if you do this it means you can not use this port for anything other than telephone, this defeats the purpose of the network.

What you need to do is get a second patch panel. you terminate a FILTERED pair of cables onto port one in pairs 4 and 5. You then take jumper cable or stripped cat5e cable and you daisy chain onto the second port, and so on and so on. You can only do this maybe four or five times before you may run into power issues with the telephone pairs.

Now you have two patch panels. You decide port 5 of patch panel A is for sky, so you put a patch lead between that and port one of patch panel B. Easy! And in a year when you need that port to be HDMI (though that might be pushing it) you unplug it and fire HD down the Port.

If you look at my profile you'll see a picture of a small network where the phones went down the network. Now because they only needed two phone I just jumpered straight from the filtered DSL.

Ill try and start posting more on site pictures for all your reference. I keep meaning to take pics before during and after but Im usually under pressure!

Anyways any questions or if you need me to clear any of that up give me a shout.

Calibos

Hi Eoghan,

If I am understanding you, you are saying I need a second RJ45 Patch panel into which the filtered phone line is wired into. I can daisy chain 4 or 5 ports And that I patch the 4 or 5 active ports on the phone panel with Cat5 RJ45 patch leads to the appropriate ports on the ethernet patchpanel to activate a given port in a room for phone.

So a given port in a room is either one or the other is it not. If I want a port as a data line I patch it to the gigabit switch, if I want it as a phone line, I patch it to the Phone patchpanel instead.

You see, I thought the way I was talking about meant that I could use a given port as both...concurrently. That the phone twisted pair was punched down over the Cat5e wires on the Ethernet patchpanel in a given port on the unused pins. The pins not used by ethernet. The middle 4 pins IIRC. ie. At the same time you had network traffic going along pins 1,2,7&8 you would also have phone traffic(on the rare occasion a Skybox dialed home) travelling along pins 3,4,5&6.

That with a cable economiser on the wall plate end splitting a socket into 2 RJ45 sockets, that I could have a sky box plugged into 1 RJ45 socket and a network device plugged into the other socket on the economiser and that this meant both could work concurrently on the same cable because the network device was using pins/wires 1,2,7&8 and the Skybox was using pins/wires 3,4,5&6

Why can't this work. I know a patch panel is passive. Of course its just a fancy cable joiner. Now I can see that there is kind of a link between the phone wiring and the ethernet switch doing it my way. But the ethernet switch is not expecting any signal/voltage coming from the ethernet patch panel on the supposedly unused pins 3,4,5&6 but in my case there would be. Is there conductors in the gigabit switch for every wire/pin in the RJ45's plugged into it. If that were the case then I guess unexpected voltage on those wires/pins might screw things up in the switch on that port meaning data might not work. Maybe it might read phone voltage on those pins as damaged cable and disable that port for data too.

But if there is no conducters in the switch for those wires/pins, then I don't understand why the phone system using those wires/pins would not be invisible to the switch and thus I could have data and phone travelling along the same Cat5e at the same time.

Remember, I don't need the flexibility of being able to quickly patch in Data-or-Voice-or-HDMI to a given cable. I need the flexibility of not running more Cat5e and being able to use a given run for Data-AND-Voice.

If my way were possible it would mean all ports active for Data all the time because all Cat5e runs would be patched to the switch. Its just I would punch down phone pairs on the unused cat5e pairs on a given port. If I move a skybox to another room I snip the phone patch wires on the old port and repatch them in to the unused pins on the new appropriate port.

HDMI around the house via baluns, I ruled that out long ago. So I am not worried about not being able to quickly patch in HDMI. Not only would it mean for 8 rooms I'd need 16 runs of Cat5e(2 per balun) to one location but I'd need an extra 2 runs/wall points in every room. Installed now when they probably never be used because it turns out the matrix switcher and cable and balun cost means that it would take half a decade of a Sky and 3 mirror subs to equal the upfront cost of the matrix switcher and baluns. This is why I am going the discrete Sky STB's route with at least 4 boxes instead of sharing 2 via hdmi baluns. The whole question about phone wiring over Cat5e is predicated on needing the phone point in each room for these STB's because of the very economics of doing HDMI over Cat5

FusionNet

Do you want gigabit data or just 10/100???

Calibos

I have a feeling this is where I find out that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You are going to tell me that gigabit switches use all the wires in a Cat5e aren't you??!!

FusionNet

haha yes my man. 10/100 uses the grean and orange pairs. This is how your adaptor things work as they hijack the remaining pairs but good old gigabit want everything the greedy bee...!!

Calibos

FusionNet wrote: »

haha yes my man. 10/100 uses the grean and orange pairs. This is how your adaptor things work as they hijack the remaining pairs but good old gigabit want everything the greedy bee...!!

In the words of the great Homer Simpson.....DOH!!

techguy

Sorry to bump this thread.

I have just one small question and don't see the need to start a mew thread just yet.

So I get that you will have a second patch panel for telephone. Do you keep RJ45 jacks all over the house and no RJ11 so that telephone leads are converted to RJ45 from RJ11. What about the worry of someone plugging in an Ethernet device into the phonline and blowing it?

@FusionNet. Can you recommend any small 3-4 port telephone patch panels that can be bought in IE/UK online?

Cheers.

FusionNet

Hi Techguy,

Yes telephone lines carry between 50 and 120 volts DC so in theory it can do damage, but it is a better system. see this was designed for offices where only one persons plays with the IT, not always the same in a domestic situation.

And yes you keep the RJ45's everywhere. Im in the process of ordering RJ45 to RJ11 adaptors as making up telco leads with RJ45's is a pain. So if that would suit just PM me your details and Ill let you know what they end up costing.

On the networks I install I can colour code the sockets for telco or data but I dont like to do it as they are well marked anyways according to international rules...

techguy

So thats sorted then..

I'll send you a PM as I may need a few of these.

Cheers.

sunnysoutheast

FusionNet wrote: »

Hi Techguy,

Yes telephone lines carry between 50 and 120 volts DC so in theory it can do damage, but it is a better system. see this was designed for offices where only one persons plays with the IT, not always the same in a domestic situation.

And yes you keep the RJ45's everywhere. Im in the process of ordering RJ45 to RJ11 adaptors as making up telco leads with RJ45's is a pain. So if that would suit just PM me your details and Ill let you know what they end up costing.

On the networks I install I can colour code the sockets for telco or data but I dont like to do it as they are well marked anyways according to international rules...

Hi - are they like these:
http://www.revealcable.co.uk/acatalog/info_AA_1733.html?

I need a couple of these so I'll drop you a PM!

Thanks
SSE

FusionNet

Something like that alright.. Though Id be hoping not at that price thats robbery... PM's received Ill update ye as soon as I know..

Cheers,

kaizersoze

Why do you need adapters? RJ11's fit the RJ45 socket. I have RJ45's all around the office and can patch phone to any one of them.

techguy

I read on here that RJ11's will damage the RJ45 socket.

Fusion will confirm this i'm sure..

sunnysoutheast

techguy wrote: »

I read on here that RJ11's will damage the RJ45 socket.

Fusion will confirm this i'm sure..

It's a bit hit-and-miss about whether they fit properly, plus I think you can munge the outer pins of the RJ45 socket.

SSE

FusionNet

Yes RJ11 plugs will damage the outer pins of an RJ45 module. depending on the module and Ive seen many, some damage instantly, some only over a period of time, i.e if the RJ11 was plugged in for many months. My network provider Panduit, which are one of the 3 big guys did some testing for me on their modules and came back to me saying yes in theory it works but they would not give warranty on the network or could not assure me the modules would not get damaged. Hence why Im looking at stocking adaptors...

No price yet guys but Ill make a call in the morning..

Solair

It's also worth remembering that in an office environment the phone lines on structured cabling are typically sourced from a local PABX feeding modern telephones on very short lines. Public telephone exchange line cards are designed to power devices over many kilometers of cable. They also deliver a ring voltage designed to be capable of ringing several old-fashined bell-ringing telephones. While there are relatively few of these remaining in service, the digital exchanges on the PSTN are still quite capable of powering one.

Eircom's lines run at -48V DC and deliver around 75V 25hz across both wires when the phone rings. This can hit 100V if you're close to the exchange.
In theory anything up to 250V could be present on it eg during unusual line test conditions.

Basically, I wouldn't recommend feeding a PSTN line into structured cabling shared with Ethernet equipment. Public phone network lines are pretty serious and robust and don't play well with sensitive IT equipment!

FusionNet

Solair though your info is spot on I have to disagree.. Structured cabling is desighed for such a task, delivering Telco over structured cabling... And yes you are right, with the wrong engineer at the helm you may get disaster but as a cabling installer I cant foresee what idiot may do what!!! I hand over a cabling sysytem that can handle voice, video, data, what the guy does after unless your on an IT contract in none of our business but you hope he has the common sense to do the right thing...!!!!

Sending exchange lines dirextly over a network is not dangerous but one needs to know what their doing. Solair is right you an do a lot of damage... This is why we label a network to TIA568 guidlines s it reduces to potential, but in a home netwrk it is very possible....


Het solair, you ever had wet hands while intalling ISDN or DSL, thats fun isint it?!?!!!?

Solair

It's starting to become a non-issue in business environments these days as telephones are mostly provided using VoIP PBX systems so they run over the same ethernet infrastructure as everything else.

However, in a home environment, I would still strongly suggest that you're better off not bringing telco wiring into structured cabling if you can at all avoid it.