a few questions about irish history

Artur.PL

Why Michael Collins in known as a "big fellow" I read about that in the newspaper a few days ago.

And another one.
Why original version Whiskey in the jar is:
"I met Colonel Pepper and his money he was countin',"

but the Dubliners version is
"I saw Captain Farrell, his money he was countin'"
It's just a mistake or important difference?

walrusgumble

Artur.PL wrote: »

Why Michael Collins in known as a "big fellow" I read about that in the newspaper a few days ago.

And another one.
Why original version Whiskey in the jar is:
"I met Colonel Pepper and his money he was countin',"

but the Dubliners version is
"I saw Captain Farrell, his money he was countin'"
It's just a mistake or important difference?

re collins: this is just a guess, so probably not much use, he may have got that from his days in frongnach prison. he was one of the main men amongst men there, always sorting out matters, getting involved in things. see tp coogan's work to get an idea of the scams he pulled. also he was pretty big in physcial stature as we know, he was the main man, despite his rank (director of intelligence) in the tan war. also most people in the country did not know what exactly he looked like until the truce

with regard to whiskey in the jar, another guess, look at that song i think its called "I'll tell me ma when i go home"..... she is the belle of dublin/belfast city.

here's a few variants to the song, as point by you

As I was a-walkin round Kilgary Mountain
I met Colonel Pepper and his money he was countin',
I rattled me pistols and I drew forth me saber,
Sayin' "Stand and deliver, for I am the bold deceiver!"
Musha rig um du rum da, / Whack fol the daddy O,
Whack fol the daddy O, / There's whiskey in the jar
(Folk Songs of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, ed. William Cole, arr. Norman Monath, Cornerstone Library, New York, 1961)

and

As I was goin' over the Cork and Kerry mountains
I saw Captain Farrell, his money he was countin'
I first produced me pistol and I then produced me rapier
Saying "Stand and deliver, for you are a bold deceiver'
(The Singing Island: A Collection Of English And Scots Folksongs, Compiled By Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, Mills Music, London, 1960.)

depends on where it was sung/spoken i suppose, be it with the irish in australia or america etc, change it around to suit the time?

CDfm

DeValera was known as the long fella and maybe it was a basic code used in company where people werevat risk of being overheard. There may even have been a ginger and fair fella too.

Judgement Day

And not forgetting Padraig Pearse ....the quare fellow....:pac::pac:

Artur.PL

Judgement Day wrote: »

....the quare fellow....:pac::pac:

Is it mean strange? Why
Was there an ordinary fellow?



Were they (Captain Farrell or Colonel Pepper )special people or just it is a song?

ejmaztec

Artur.PL wrote: »

Is it mean strange? Why
Was there an ordinary fellow?



Were they (Captain Farrell or Colonel Pepper )special people or just it is a song?

Here's a link where the song and a number of variations of it are discussed by various people. It seems that Pepper and Farrell weren't the only names used in the song.

Placenames also changed, and I even think someone changed it so that it would appear that it was based in the USA.

I think that various people over the years have changed the names and places to localise it.

Perhaps the name Farrell was chosen because Pepper wasn't an Irish name?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3116

CDfm

Artur.PL wrote: »

Is it mean strange? Why
Was there an ordinary fellow?

You didnt have an English Fellow because he was a Chap

walrusgumble

Ryler T Dwyer has published books on Collins, Dev, Lynch and Haughey: all entitled "the big fellow", "the long Fellow", as for Lynch I forget but it definitely * fellow, and for Haughey the "short fellow"

CDfm

For Brian Cowan Would he be the Fat Fellow or the Ugly Fellow.

As for George Lee what is the male equivalent of Drama Queen -would Melodramatic Fellow work?;)

Glenster

Removed because author is not that very smart

CDfm

Glenster wrote: »

Removed because author is not that very smart

The not very smart Fellow

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

The not very smart Fellow

You could be the "Milking the Same Quip For All Its Worth Fellow":P

CDfm

It is funny though that you did have a lot of nicknames in the old days and not sonow.

In modern times - its like any nicknames are made up by the media - the Monk and the General were probably made up by the Sunday World journalists.

Whereas Biffo who knows but its not in common usage.

I.Am.A.Panda

Collins was known to have affairs, so maybe they weren't directly referring to him when they called him the "Big Fellow"

trapsagenius

walrusgumble wrote: »

re collins: this is just a guess, so probably not much use, he may have got that from his days in frongnach prison. he was one of the main men amongst men there, always sorting out matters, getting involved in things. see tp coogan's work to get an idea of the scams he pulled. also he was pretty big in physcial stature as we know, he was the main man, despite his rank (director of intelligence) in the tan war. also most people in the country did not know what exactly he looked like until the truce

I agree with almost everything you've written but I wouldn't advise anyone to read TP Coogans work-It's a shambles.He's so unbelievably biased pro-Collins and anti-Dev its unreal.His Michael Collins biography was essentially just a eulogy to Collins.

CDfm

Coogan was a bit of a boy himself and his books read like a journalism. Very witty and racy.

I have often wondered if he doesnt let his dislike of the catholic church get in the way of his objectivity. I also think this influenced his view of DeValera. His father was a player in the events of independence so some of his theories are no doubt influenced by his fathers influence.

I dont like his work but if he did a warts and all on Daniel O Connell it might be fun.