RDF Discussion

Remmy

Right,This following post is going to sound very Waltish so bear with me.

There seems to be a general consensus on this board and some other forums that the RDF are not as competant as they should be.
I'm not suggesting they receive a large budget but do you think their competance is directly proportinal to the amount of training time they receive?
I know the British TA receive a much bigger budget and are more integreted with the modern army with 'incentives' to keep working through the ranks such as specialised units.They a better regarded because of this.

Or is it our Societys lack if leeway with time-off and proper recognition of the Reserve Defence Forces?

Or am I off the mark and to they do the best they can with the limited budget they receive?

Also are the RDF logistically independant of The PDF apart from ground used?As in do they have their own vehicles serviced and driven by them?Same question directed towards firearms?

Would there be any potential roadblocks with introducing a year's mandatory military service?Could our Country afford it or would society see it as socially repugnant.What are peoples opinion on this?

thanks in advance.

minidazzler

The requirement for fitness and the amount of training are all that really separate the RDF from the PDF.

If you think about it, when people join either organisation, they are basically the same, generally young 17-22.

It's illogical to think there is more than that seperating the organisations.

Of course there is also experience on behalf of the PDF, a shared collective even, but that can fall under training.

The RDF budget is quite tiny really, so you have to say yes the best is done with what is given.

Not exactly logistically independant, but in some ways.

Vehicles are all services by the Corps of Transport???

Yes, the roadblocks to mandatory military service would be, lack of financing, lack of motivation for the govt, lack of reasons and lack of public support!

Fukuyama

I was going to join the RDF - until I talked to a few people and heared some horror stories of people attending training and waiting around doing nothing because NCOs didn't show up, lack of numbers, no equipment and sometimes, no uniforms!

I think most of the problems in the RDF come down to how people are admitted. There should be a fitness test to get it, a better personality test to ensure only people who want to become part of a capable part time force get in. Same as the PDF.

The reason why the coast guard and civil defense are very professional and respected is because they don't allow scumbags in and have proper training.

Needs to be reorganised with entrance tests, more funding and new facilities to accomidate them somewhat independently of the PDF (although I'm not suggesting building totally separate barracks etc...) once the force doesn;t rely upon the PDF for everything.

May god help the country should they ever be needed in a defence situation in their current state. :eek:

OS119

the fundamental problem with the RDF is that its members, the PDF, the political class, and the public all know that the RDF will never be called upon to do the task that the RDF exists to carry out.

there is no interest in creating a 'one Army' context in which RDF units/personel are used as part of the Army in a day-to-day role, and the RDF is so far from combat capability/readiness that the idea of it being a useful combat force in times of national emergency is laughable.

if something is never going to be used, no one gives a shit if it works - all its problems: recruitment, commitment, enabling legislation, funding, etc, all stem from that.

Morpheus

Dean0088 wrote: »

I was going to join the RDF - until I talked to a few people and heared some horror stories of people attending training and waiting around doing nothing because NCOs didn't show up, lack of numbers, no equipment and sometimes, no uniforms!

So you based your decision to NOT join on the hearsay from some friends cousins auntys sons mates dad? If there was no recruitment embargo at the time you were considering joining, why didnt you go up and try it out? It costs nothing and you may have found that the information sources were wrong. Not all units have bad reputations.

Dean0088 wrote: »

I think most of the problems in the RDF come down to how people are admitted.

You arent in the force so how do you know this? there are different issues effecting the reserve and if you arent in then you wont know which are the worst ones.

Dean0088 wrote: »

The reason why the coast guard and civil defense are very professional and respected is because they don't allow scumbags in and have proper training.

You have evidence that the defence forces allow scumbags to join? Are you sure? Dont the coast guard and civil defence use similiar recruitment requirements? Dont the 3 services have to submit you to a garda check? In my experience, scumbags do not like being told what to do and dont take to the chain of command too well and therefore dont last long, it also helps that if you are a scumbag, you wont make many friends in your unit as when you f**k up, its not just you that has to take the fallout.

Dean0088 wrote: »

Needs to be reorganised with entrance tests, more funding and new facilities to accomidate them somewhat independently of the PDF (although I'm not suggesting building totally separate barracks etc...) once the force doesn;t rely upon the PDF for everything.

May god help the country should they ever be needed in a defence situation in their current state. :eek:

There is need for more equipment etc but there are not too many problems sharing barracks, we are a reserve force, we are there to assist our parent units, we should be MORE integrated with them NOT less.

Come back when you know more about that of which you speak, I appreciate your lack of enthusiasm and admit that yes there are problems with the force, but at least read over these forums and do some research and speak directly to members to understand the full spectrum of challenges faced by reservists in todays army. There are many many pro's to being in the RDF, thankfully for me at least they still outweigh the con's, otherwise I wouldnt be entering my 6th years service.

regards
morph.

Fukuyama

Morphéus wrote: »

So you based your decision to NOT join on the hearsay from some friends cousins auntys sons mates dad? If there was no recruitment embargo at the time you were considering joining, why didnt you go up and try it out? It costs nothing and you may have found that the information sources were wrong. Not all units have bad reputations.

No, that would be retarded. I based my decision to not join the RDF by talking to friends and relatives who were and are in it. A close friend of mine IS an NCO in a dublin based unit (62nd Inf) and he said many of the NCOs don;t turn up and when they do they might instruct for half the alloted time. He also said that there were problems with diciplin and getting people to show up regularly. Unfortunately, the minute I turned 17 (my name was on the waiting list) they put a ban on recruiting because of the recession. AFAIK this is still in place.

You're right, not all units have bad reputations. And I wouldn't assume as such. In fact, the very fact that I know dedicated people in it tells me otherwise. But a lot of units do or at the very least only show up for the honeymoon period where wearing a uniform is 'cool'. You cannot deny there are problems with people showing up to 'shoot guns' on their first camp then disappearing into the abyss.

You arent in the force so how do you know this? there are different issues effecting the reserve and if you arent in then you wont know which are the worst ones.

Em...the RDF isn;t MI6. The general public is aware of its operational capacity and what goes on in there. Again, that's not to say there aren't dedicated untits. I know of PDF leadership singling out certain units and relying on them hen the PDF are away etc... But I think, that due to entrance tests, the standard of personell is low (in a structured organisation, a few bad apples bring the whole team down).

You have evidence that the defence forces allow scumbags to join? Are you sure? Dont the coast guard and civil defence use similiar recruitment requirements? Dont the 3 services have to submit you to a garda check?

Oh come on now! The army attracts scum (not all, but a few of them are) because of its very nature. You think the same romantic image applies to the civil defence??? Everyone knows scumbags who joined the RDF. And the sad thing is that one or two of them in a unit bring it down to a bad level. Armies rely on one another - it's a shame. They should be kicked out.

In my experience, scumbags do not like being told what to do and dont take to the chain of command too well and therefore dont last long, it also helps that if you are a scumbag, you wont make many friends in your unit as when you f**k up, its not just you that has to take the fallout.

You're right. They don;t. If the RDF was more active and was better struictured these fools would quickly be weeded out. But many remain because they can get pints for 2.50, shoot a few guns a few times a year and have the stature to say "I'm in de armeyyyy".

There is need for more equipment etc but there are not too many problems sharing barracks, we are a reserve force, we are there to assist our parent units, we should be MORE integrated with them NOT less.

What I meant was this: The RDF should be able to stand on its own to legs by being given funding etc... That way, it COULD be more integrated with the PDF in training maneuvers, logistics and even deployment should they ever be needed.

Come back when you know more about that of which you speak, I appreciate your lack of enthusiasm and admit that yes there are problems with the force, but at least read over these forums and do some research and speak directly to members to understand the full spectrum of challenges faced by reservists in todays army.

I know more than your average person. Mainly because I spend two years wanting to join the force before being turned down at the recruitment office when the ban came in. I frequent this thread quite regularly, and have spoken to RDF on here. So I;d like to think I'm fairly well educated on the subject. That's not to undermine your first-hand experience however.

There are many many pro's to being in the RDF, thankfully for me at least they still outweigh the con's, otherwise I wouldnt be entering my 6th years service.

Indeed there are. Firstly, it beats doing **** all on a tuesday and sunday night. Also, it looks brilliant on a CV. Thirdly, for anyone who actually wants to become a member of a capable force then it's heaven. Fair play for being in the RDF six years. But surely, in that time, you must have noticed how the RDF is badly contaminated and given a bad name by people who want to put on a green cap, drink cheap booze, shoot a Steyr and then act mad.

-- Dean.

starviewadams

Badly contaminated?There was not one scumbag in my unit during my time in the RDF(2005-09)and the people who ''turn up who want to put on a green cap, drink cheap booze, shoot a Steyr and then act mad'' dont usually last more then a week or two of foot drill in the square in the lashing rain,certainly not enough time to be sworn in,which takes quite a while with medicals and the Garda background check.

When on camp during the summer,you might see a few dozey pr!cks from other units, people who think they're GI Joe or whatever,but scumbags wouldn't last too long in the RDF.

Morpheus

Im not going to get into a shooting war over things here but regarding scummers, in my own unit, you either toe the line and muck in or (without contravening A7) you are made to understand that it is in the best interests of the defence forces and yourself that you decide to take yourself out of the service. I know of no scumbags that have lasted as far as 3 stars as it involves putting one foot infront of the other in time with your fellow recruits and constant verbal battering by your NCO's makes life too tough. Sure some scumbags MIGHT join, but if they LAST that long, the scum is uually washed out, just leaving us with a ... dare i say it... bag

Scouser

The RDF is an incredibly worth while organisation and I would encourage any young person to join.

I do agree that their are shortcoming and failures in the organisation with regard to its structure and effectiveness but its not the fault of individual units, more so the system.

Ireland is a small nation of 4.5million people and the PDF numbers 10,000. Such as small nation as ours needs a sizeable reserve as it cannot support more permanent members. So i would invisage the RDF to be around for quite some time.

I would be quite willing to recommend units that are active and effective to any potential RDF recruit and warn them of those units which would be a waste of time, ahem Air Defence ahem.

The RDF is a classic case of 'you get out of it what you put in'.

if your just going down to drink tax free beer and get a snazzy uniform you wont last pissin time.

i was waiting 9months to be security cleared, medically cleared and attested before i got near a uniform or a rifle.

Your first night on the square in the rain being marched around will envoke one of two responses. You'll either run away or join up immediatly.

give yourself one night. go down to your local barracks and ask the NCO on the gate for directions to the RDF unit. the next few hours could change your opinion.

when your recruit camp rolls around, your in for an excellent experience

OS119

Scouser wrote: »

The RDF is an incredibly worth while organisation and I would encourage any young person to join.

I do agree that their are shortcoming and failures in the organisation with regard to its structure and effectiveness but its not the fault of individual units, more so the system.

Ireland is a small nation of 4.5million people and the PDF numbers 10,000. Such as small nation as ours needs a sizeable reserve as it cannot support more permanent members. So i would invisage the RDF to be around for quite some time.

I would be quite willing to recommend units that are active and effective to any potential RDF recruit and warn them of those units which would be a waste of time, ahem Air Defence ahem.

The RDF is a classic case of 'you get out of it what you put in'.

if your just going down to drink tax free beer and get a snazzy uniform you wont last pissin time.

i was waiting 9months to be security cleared, medically cleared and attested before i got near a uniform or a rifle.

Your first night on the square in the rain being marched around will envoke one of two responses. You'll either run away or join up immediatly.

give yourself one night. go down to your local barracks and ask the NCO on the gate for directions to the RDF unit. the next few hours could change your opinion.

when your recruit camp rolls around, your in for an excellent experience

thats great, nobody denies that the individual can get an enormous amount from the RDF - but what does the RDF contribute to the real military capability of the state?

Remmy

OS119 wrote: »

thats great, nobody denies that the individual can get an enormous amount from the RDF - but what does the RDF contribute to the real military capability of the state?

Yeah thats what I was kinda getting at with my original post.ask not what your country can do for you and so on and so forth

Scouser

Remmy wrote: »

Yeah thats what I was kinda getting at with my original post.ask not what your country can do for you and so on and so forth

well it offers a pool of trained infantry reservists aswell as an experienced combat support service.

the way the RDF is set up is so it can function on its own. this may or may not be able to happen, but you can be damn sure they can slot into the PDF operational structure.

the AD is 75% reserve so thats a huge militaristic offering from reserves. medical experience is vast aswell as specialist training in CIS and Transport

Morpheus

ok

im infantry, when the embargo ends, you should join a decent infantry company, ive had bags of fun since I joined and found it very rewarding over the last few years.

but as far as im aware, our country cousins in the Air defence are one of the most integrated units in the force. Therefore to slate those fly swatters as a waste of time is probably a little harsh! We grunts know that most other corps dont like getting their feet wet and prefer to sip ice tea from the back of a nissan, but credit where credits due! The Arty boys cant hear us anyway (they also usually aim at us!) and as for the cav.....

BigDuffman

Not going to bother repeating what has been said in the above points. There are a lot of benefits to the RDF and an equal amount of pit falls. Despite what seasoned black hats say, any exposure to a military (albeit part-time, weekend warrior) lifestyle is advantageous.

For example out of the current crop of cadets I personally know and have either trained or trained with 4 of them (although there are many more than that this year). All of whom have found it a benefit. Same goes with the previous years cadet class / PDF recruits.

It also gives walter mitty types an outlet to realize that being shouted at is not for them...as in 17 years of age. Played COD MW2, watched Black Hawk Down and wants to join the army. Joins the RDF realizes being disciplined and waking up at 0630 is not for them and does not bother applying to PDF and wasting their time. Look at it as a staging ground.

A universal rule in all things practical realizes that level of ability is proportionate to the level of training received. Our instructors need better training. The POTs should be trained by PDF instructors or by RDF integrated under PDF control. The standards would then drip down through the ranks. The same standards per rank should be met by RDF as per the PDF. It will take longer but will increase ability and respect between organizations.

Cadre should be active in their roll. Not just riding out their time till they can go on their ticket. A cadre training Sgt. should be actively involved in training. Not just drawing keys and drinking tea.

Applicants should be interviewed and screened. A Garda check does not do anything other than check if they've been caught for being bold. Within 15 mins you can tell if some-one is trouble/lacking mental facilities/weird/Incapable. The days where everyone can get in should end ASAP scum and wasters never last..but they do take up valuable time and resources. An NCO should not have to waster their time on some muppet who is only in it for a uniform. I've been in this situation before..where I could tell from day one that individuals where counter productive, bad for morale and definitely would not last.

But duty as an NCO means you train everyone. Even though it is known that by us having to process paper work, train and equip what will essentially be a black hole of resources is detrimental to the over all objective.

Yearly ARPs and Fitness Tests must be completed or be shown the door. Over-weight and unfit slobs give the organization a terrible reputation. (No excuse for being unfit if you want to serve in a "combat ready" organization).

Standardization. There is a huge and notable difference in skills and level of training between units. Some-one for the love of god enforce SOPs.

Make the RDF valuable to the PDF. As it stands there is no real practical and applicable use in the organizations current remit.
The powers that be should write down what the RDF could / should be used for. And then train them for that roll. If a barrack guard, CIT or driver is needed. Give the people in question the level of training needed (over a period of time) so as that they can be a resource used to support the PDF. And that the PDF will know that they can have confidence and trust in the volunteers ability.

Scouser

Morphéus wrote: »

ok

our country cousins in the Air defence are one of the most integrated units in the force.

not nearly true! they love to wheel that out when recruiting young people and it couldnt be further from the truth. they dnt get integrated grat for a start!

and you can take that as fact from an AD Gunner!

concussion

Well you can take it from an AD NCO that we are integrated (as a concept) and have been for years. That the pilot 'Integrated Reserve' came along with a similar sounding name does not detract from the fact that the 3 RDF AD Bty's are identical 1 AD Bty with the exception of missile troop. We have the same command structure as 1 AD Bty and complete the same courses, be it EL 70 gunnery, EL 70 DC, 0.5 HMG and even Giraffe and RBS 70 courses with PDF from 1 AD Bty. RDF NCO's also regularly instruct PDF students on such courses.

WRT the integrated rate of gratuity, did you complete the prescribed Integrated Reserve syllabus and pass all required weapons and fitness tests?

Scouser

concussion wrote: »

Well you can take it from an AD NCO that we are integrated (as a concept) and have been for years. That the pilot 'Integrated Reserve' came along with a similar sounding name does not detract from the fact that the 3 RDF AD Bty's are identical 1 AD Bty with the exception of missile troop. We have the same command structure as 1 AD Bty and complete the same courses, be it EL 70 gunnery, EL 70 DC, 0.5 HMG and even Giraffe and RBS 70 courses with PDF from 1 AD Bty. RDF NCO's also regularly instruct PDF students on such courses.

WRT the integrated rate of gratuity, did you complete the prescribed Integrated Reserve syllabus and pass all required weapons and fitness tests?

I am not integrated, never have been, never will be.

what im getting at is that AD reserves dont get integrated grat. only the standard, unless of course they apply for integration. if they were integrated (as a reality) they would get the integrated grat. but they dont, because theyre not. they like to think they are!

if a RDF infantry private goes on a course that has a PDF instructor, it doesnt make him an integrated reserve.

(out of curiosity)can an RDF officer pass a gun crew of their drills before firing in gormo?

how are the 3AD indentical to the 1AD? in the fact that they have no overseas use?

concussion

All AD Bty.'s have the same structure and command (except of course, missile troop). They are sub-units of the same unit. That is what is meant by the term integrated and this description has been used for years.

The Integrated Reserve is a completely different thing and has nothing to do with the ADR being integrated. If the name of one was different there would be no confusion.

Reservists in the AD complete the same courses as PDF and this is reflected by the fact that they can instruct PDF students, something which rarely happens in other Corps but is common for AD.

Can an RDF officer pass a gun crew? I don't believe so but that's a reflection on the trust the DF places in RDF officers, not RDF AD officers. To be honest, the PDF officers know fcuk all about the guns bar the stats and drills they test us on. As usual its the NCO's who have the knowledge in that area.

As for your petty remark about the fact that 1AD have no overseas use, by your logic no DF unit has a use overseas as none deploy as a unit, let alone a sub-unit. Plenty of ADR personnell serve overseas, same as any other troops.

Edit - I take that back about most officers, I know some excellent ones. Some, however, really make me wonder.

Morpheus

thats the type of integration that i meant... not to be confused with that bullcrap that was an abortion of an attempt at RDF PDF integrated platoons.

BigDuffman

The AD is an example of how "integration" (call it whatever the hell you want) can work! People don't need a pay check to validate training. Most of us who volunteer, would do so with out pay!

concussion

The Int Reserve is still a good idea...it's a shame it was poorly executed.

bunny shooter

concussion wrote: »

Well you can take it from an AD NCO that we are integrated (as a concept) and have been for years.

You actually beleive this, don't you :rolleyes: More elitist ****e :rolleyes: the old 23 INF BN had the same kind of ideas about themselves :rolleyes:

concussion wrote: »

That the pilot 'Integrated Reserve' came along with a similar sounding name does not detract from the fact that the 3 RDF AD Bty's are identical 1 AD Bty with the exception of missile troop.

Except one is PDF and one is RDF, even if you don't believe it, there is a difference, even such small things as the colour of the head gear worn with the notable exception of the PA's

concussion wrote: »

We have the same command structure as 1 AD Bty and complete the same courses, be it EL 70 gunnery, EL 70 DC, 0.5 HMG and even Giraffe and RBS 70 courses with PDF from 1 AD Bty.

As do all Reserve units you might not have noticed that the RDF are supposed to be able to inter-operate with PDF using same weapons & equipment. All training is supposed to be of same standard, duration varies though :rolleyes:

concussion wrote: »

RDF NCO's also regularly instruct PDF students on such courses.

Never in 14 years have I heard or seen that, but will take your word for it

bunny shooter

concussion wrote: »

All AD Bty.'s have the same structure and command (except of course, missile troop). They are sub-units of the same unit. That is what is meant by the term integrated and this description has been used for years.

RDF units are twinned with a PDF unit. They are not part of it as such.

And for the record even in FCA days I "worked" with the PDF as an FCA Infantry soldier so not a new concept really

I have been on PDF exercises too since becoming RDF and I wasn't integrated either

RDF is not PDF no matter how long you spend with them

Scouser

the only integrating the reserve AD have with the 1AD is on a friday night in the cock tavern in balbriggan when 1AD gunners are integrating with RDF female recruits after and skin full of pints!

they dont call the track back up to gormanstown camp 'lovers lane' for nothing!

Trust me, i know:D

concussion

bunny shooter wrote: »

You actually beleive this, don't you :rolleyes: More elitist ****e :rolleyes: the old 23 INF BN had the same kind of ideas about themselves :rolleyes:

Except one is PDF and one is RDF, even if you don't believe it, there is a difference, even such small things as the colour of the head gear worn with the notable exception of the PA's

Of course one is PDF, how could I be comparing the RDF Bty.'s to the PDF otherwise?? The other difference is that they also provide all the troops for AD deployments in Ireland as, so far, there hasn't been a requirement for more than a single battery to be deployed.

I'm sorry, I don't know anything about 23 Inf Bn.

bunny shooter wrote: »

As do all Reserve units you might not have noticed that the RDF are supposed to be able to inter-operate with PDF using same weapons & equipment. All training is supposed to be of same standard, duration varies though :rolleyes:

Duration (and content) for AD courses is the exact same - that's the difference between a lot of PDF and RDF syllabi. It's not by any way restricted to AD though, I'm almost certain Cav do the same drivers and gunnery course and Res Cav students have completed the Cav Recce Course. Inf should be completing the same support weapons courses but I don't think they regularly do them with PDF students. The course should be the same in any case AFAIK.

AD courses off the top of my head:
0.5 HMG - completed the full course with PDF gunners.
EL 70 DC's course - completed the full course with PDF NCO's.
RBS 70 DC course - haven't done it but the NCO's who did it completed it with PDF NCO's.
Flycatcher Radar - PDF and RDF NCO's complete the same course.
Giraffe Radar - PDF and RDF NCO's complete the same course.

As for interoperability, I've commanded PDF on the range and there's nothing stopping me from commanding a PDF crew if the need arises (which it probably wont). The same probably applies to Reserve Cav and Reserve Artillery (Field).

bunny shooter wrote: »

Never in 14 years have I heard or seen that, but will take your word for it

Contact the Artillery School if you want. I know of one 4 AD NCO who regularly instructs both on regular DC courses (PDF and RDF) and on Arty YO courses.


With regards to RDF units being 'twinned' with parent units, that's the whole point I'm trying to get across. RDF sub-units, for example an Infantry Company are part of a Reserve Infantry Battalion. This RIB is solely comprised of Reserve Companies and a Reserve HQ commanded by a PDF Commandant w(ho is the 2 i/c of the relevant PDF Bn.) The RIB has bugger all to do with the PDF Bn in terms of exercises etc. They are 'associated' or 'affiliated' to the PDF for admin purposes (cadre, training staff, stores)

A Reserve AD Bty is part of a PDF Regiment which comprises of PDF HQ, 2 PDF Bty.'s and 3 Reserve Bty.'s. Reservists have the same Regimental Commander and chain of command as PDF. The Regiment trains together and fires together and if a serious situation developed, would deploy together. This is what makes it integrated. It doesn't mean we're elite or somehow better than anyone. There are plenty of Reservists who do PDF courses, the difference is in our command structure and in how we operate, nothing more.

concussion

Scouser wrote: »

the only integrating the reserve AD have with the 1AD is on a friday night in the cock tavern in balbriggan when 1AD gunners are integrating with RDF female recruits after and skin full of pints!

they dont call the track back up to gormanstown camp 'lovers lane' for nothing!

Trust me, i know:D

The Cock Tavern isn't in Balbriggan...the rest is true however!!

Scouser

concussion wrote: »

The Cock Tavern isn't in Balbriggan...the rest is true however!!

well its damn close!

bunny shooter

Our unit has only one enlisted female left and another NCO has her taken :eek:

syklops

Scouser wrote: »

the only integrating the reserve AD have with the 1AD is on a friday night in the cock tavern in balbriggan when 1AD gunners are integrating with RDF female recruits after and skin full of pints!

they dont call the track back up to gormanstown camp 'lovers lane' for nothing!

Trust me, i know:D

Ironic that this was posted on Valentines Day.