Clinchers v Tubular Tyres

tri111

What does everyone think is the best type of tyre to use in a race situation - Clinchers or Tubulars? I'm thinking more in terms of being able to fix a puncture quickly rather than all out speed.

In my situation I will be doing a half ironman triathlon race in the summer where it will be a 90k non-drafting racing format. And I will need to be able to fix a puncture at speed if I get one so which is better to have in terms of fixing flats? I can fix clinchers fairly quickly but I've never had to fix a tubular before so don't actually know how. I'm aware they are glued onto the wheel so would this make it virtually impossible to fix a flat within 5 mins? I assume a whole new tyre would need to be glued on which I'm guessing would take a long time?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Lumen

With clinchers you can can have essentially unlimited puncture fixing capability.

In theory a tubular is less likely to flat in the first place (at least it won't pinch flat), can often be fixed with spray gunk, and can be very quickly replaced (faster than a clincher, in theory) if you prepare properly and are carrying a spare, provided you're not taking corners flat out afterwards. However, if you were to get multiple punctures that cannot be gunk-fixed, you're screwed.

I discussed this issue with someone who did last years Nice ironman, and he reckoned tubs were just not worth the hassle/risk. You're not likely to get a puncture anyway, but if you do you don't want it to be an event wrecker after months of careful preparation.

You might want to ask the question in A/R/T also.

mloc123

Somw will argue that if you get a puncture your race is over anyway... that said if its your first HIM you will want to continue anyway... so clinchers I guess. If I was buying race wheels they would be tubs tho'

blorg

Tubs have a fair advantage in weight, more with some brands than others. Zipp it is a big difference. This is at least partially negated if you are going to have to carry an entire spare tyre and gunk around.

Supposedly the ride quality is a lot better too although this is contentious. I haven't ridden mine yet so can't say.

Mine are ex-pro team and are glued like crazy to the rim. They will not be coming off in a hurry. If you want fast fixing ability I gather you need to use the tape instead.

I got a pair of Zipp 404s tubs myself but they will be race-only. In amateur road racing if you puncture without someone to hand you a new wheel your race is most definitely over.

In triathlon particularly long-distance clinchers are a lot more popular. I gather in tri competitors aren't allowed support like they are in road racing, so if you have to fix it yourself most go for clinchers.

victorcarrera

Clinchers.
If you are well prepaired and practiced you can change a tube in 90 seconds.
1. Choose tyres that are easy to remove and reseat.
2. Keep replacement tube unwound and slightly inflated in pocket or over shoulder.
3. Ensure CO2 cartridge is primed before start of race.

Tubulars.
Can be repaired very quickly with sealant. Obviously you need to cary the sealant, valve tool and in some cases applicator syringe.
Ive seen this done at leisure pace on the side of the road and I thought it was much quicker than your average clincher repair.

blorg

The sealant doesn't always work though as far as I know. You can seal clinchers in the same way, as far as I am aware, may need to use latex tubes. I get the impression that the main reason sealant is popular with tubs is more to do with the unholy pain of replacing one.

Quigs Snr

Clinchers all the way. Tubs vs Clinchers in terms of ride quality is not really a consideration these days. People have their opinions, but I have both and don't notice any difference really.

Tubs can be much lighter and thats the only advantage as far as I am concerned, but unless this race of yours is taking in several alpine passes I don't think you need to worry about that.

In theory, a tub could be patched up quicker than sealant, but equally it may not, whilst you will always be able to replace a tube at the side of the road or bum one off someone. For peace of mind go for clinchers. I cannot see any scenario in which tubs would offer you any benefit in this particular situation.

tri111

victorcarrera wrote: »

Clinchers.
1. Choose tyres that are easy to remove and reseat.

Can you recommend which are the easiest tyres to remove and reseat?

The ones I have at the moment (I think they are Gatorskins) are really difficult to refit, the last bit of the tyre anyway. It's extremely tight.
(In addition they are not as puncture resistant as they are made out as I have gotten 2 punctures on them in the last couple of months and that's with hardly any cycling).

Beasty

tri111 wrote: »

The ones I have at the moment (I think they are Gatorskins) ...
...(In addition they are not as puncture resistant as they are made out as I have gotten 2 punctures on them in the last couple of months and that's with hardly any cycling).

2 in two months may not be bad going compared to the experiences of some around here:). You may just have been unlucky, or it could be something to do with the surfaces you cycle on (is there much debris/broken glass on the roads for example)

I have had only 2 punctures on gatorskins in over 2 years, one of which was caused by a broken bottle, and the other when I went at speed over a deep pothole (and I don't think any tyre would have avoided that blow-out). They are definitely my tyre of choice when it comes to avoiding punctures, akthough the recent ice weather has encouraged me to switch to (the much grippier) Continental GP4000s for the time being.

ednwireland

easiest way to carry tubs



might slow down your transitions though

sorry to lower the tone of the discussion but it is friday

tunney

tri111 wrote: »

Can you recommend which are the easiest tyres to remove and reseat?

The ones I have at the moment (I think they are Gatorskins) are really difficult to refit, the last bit of the tyre anyway. It's extremely tight.
(In addition they are not as puncture resistant as they are made out as I have gotten 2 punctures on them in the last couple of months and that's with hardly any cycling).

Problem also with the vast range of clinchers is some of them are pib slow. You need to know which ones your going for and trading off durablity versus speed.

victorcarrera

tri111 wrote: »

Can you recommend which are the easiest tyres to remove and reseat? ...

Well you are not the only one struggling with the gators. Possibly the worst possible choice for fast changing.
Anyhow ease of tyre fitting/removal is a combination of tyre/rim choice. And to a certain extent your technique/experience.
It has been well discussed here recently so a relevant search should turn up some solutions for you.
Put your tyre/rim combination up and somebody with similar may be able to help.
Failing that these may be suitable for your requirements Continental Grand Prix Triathlon Tyre or any of the high end clinchers on that site.

dario28

If you want a lesson on clinchers v tubs go to cyclogical on bachlors walk - I read this thread earlier and didnt know anything ,went with my mate looking for a bike for him and asked the guy whats difference , 10 mins later after an awesome demo & explanation I know everything.....

My answer after my lesson ...Clinchers !

blorg

tri111 wrote: »

Can you recommend which are the easiest tyres to remove and reseat?

The ones I have at the moment (I think they are Gatorskins) are really difficult to refit, the last bit of the tyre anyway.

You wouldn't be racing on Gatorskins anyway, they are not very nice rolling or cornering compared to a good race tyre.

Schwalbe tyres are substantially easier to fit than Conti in my experience, over a variety of rims. I would suggest a Schwalbe Ultremo R; there were issues with a batch of these tyres a while ago but I think it is all resolved now. GP4000S are about as good as Ultremos but more difficult to fit and perhaps slightly more likely to puncture. The Ultremos are good rolling, grippy, light and durable.

I helped a guy fix a flat with Hutchinsons a few days ago and they were also amazingly easy to get on and off his rims. But I would tend to consider the other qualities first.

Also, get a Speed Lever and practice, makes things a lot easier. But I wouldn't be focusing on this at the expense of the rest of your training

tunney

dario28 wrote: »

If you want a lesson on clinchers v tubs go to cyclogical on bachlors walk - I read this thread earlier and didnt know anything ,went with my mate looking for a bike for him and asked the guy whats difference , 10 mins later after an awesome demo & explanation I know everything.....

My answer after my lesson ...Clinchers !

More to do with not being arsed to glue the tubs onto rims that they sell

RobFowl

tunney wrote: »

More to do with not being arsed to glue the tubs onto rims that they sell

Do they at least pump them up for you ?

tri111

victorcarrera wrote: »

Anyhow ease of tyre fitting/removal is a combination of tyre/rim choice. And to a certain extent your technique/experience.
It has been well discussed here recently so a relevant search should turn up some solutions for you.
Put your tyre/rim combination up and somebody with similar may be able to help.

The wheels I have are Zipp 404s and the tyres are tubular Continental GP4000. However I think I'm going to change to Clinchers based on what the majority are saying here. So what sort of clinchers should I use with that wheel that are both easy to get on and off the wheel and are relatively fast?

Another issue is the valve length for Zipp 404s. As the rims are very wide I'll need tubes that have a long enough valve to use on these wheels - are these type of tubes widely available? Any suggestions?

The valve also brings me to another issue. One of the guys I was cycling with today got a puncture and he was using a CO2 canister to try to pump his tyre but it wouldn't work. Another guy said it may be down to the valve not being long enough. Is this true? Do valves need to be very long to use the CO2 canisters? (I've never used them before but need to learn for the HIM race).

Run_to_da_hills

From a safety aspect I prefer clinchers, I had a nasty experience from tubs pealing off the rim.

Lumen

tri111 wrote: »

Do valves need to be very long to use the CO2 canisters?

I don't think so. If a track pump fits you'll have no problem with a CO2 canister, from my own experience.

tunney

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

From a safety aspect I prefer clinchers, I had a nasty experience from tubs pealing off the rim.

Shoot your mechanic.

tunney

tri111 wrote: »

The wheels I have are Zipp 404s and the tyres are tubular Continental GP4000. However I think I'm going to change to Clinchers based on what the majority are saying here. So what sort of clinchers should I use with that wheel that are both easy to get on and off the wheel and are relatively fast?

Another issue is the valve length for Zipp 404s. As the rims are very wide I'll need tubes that have a long enough valve to use on these wheels - are these type of tubes widely available? Any suggestions?

The valve also brings me to another issue. One of the guys I was cycling with today got a puncture and he was using a CO2 canister to try to pump his tyre but it wouldn't work. Another guy said it may be down to the valve not being long enough. Is this true? Do valves need to be very long to use the CO2 canisters? (I've never used them before but need to learn for the HIM race).

Odds are that the valve extenders that you have on the 404 tubs are the Zipp ones. In these ones the valve is always open and it takes a build up of the air in the valve to depress the valve head and allow air to go in. For this to work properly the extender needs to be on with plumbers tape.

CO2 cartridges can often fully release their contents before the valve head has been pushed down and the tyre inflated with this type of extender if the seal beteen the valve and the extender is not right. With quality tubs you can remove the core of the valve, and replace with a longer one.

Run_to_da_hills

tunney wrote: »

Shoot your mechanic.

It was actually a case of replacing a tyre in the pi**ing rain.

Home:Ballyhoura

tunney wrote: »

With quality tubs you can remove the core of the valve, and replace with a longer one.

Yep, they certainly do alright. Here is a picture of how it works (and the nice red valve too!)

Lumen

Home:Ballyhoura wrote: »

Yep, they certainly do alright. Here is a picture of how it works (and the nice red valve too!)

Did you ever get to the bottom of your tubular puncture problems?

Run_to_da_hills

Do they still make Wolber Tyres?

Lumen

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Do they still make Wolber Tyres?

I'm not sure, but Wolber Super Champion Gentleman is the best rim name ever.

I want some!

Home:Ballyhoura

Lumen wrote: »

Did you ever get to the bottom of your tubular puncture problems?

No, I'm not quite sure but I think Mr.Skeffington agreed to doing it at the time but I never went ahead with it/got around to it. I haven't used the Corimas much since so no punctures to report, I might just wait until I have another one or two and get them all done at once so save a bit of the hassle!

Just to reiterate, as Quigs said, you need to be either rich, lucky or sponsored to ride tubs in this country none of which I am...I only got them because they were really cheap at the time (I mean cheaper than any of the half decent box section clinchers I was looking at) and come on, who doesn't want flashy deep section carbon rims? However, when asked by a fella I race with how I found tubs I told him to stay away from them for the cost reasons (he is not minted either) unless he got a ridiculous bargain like I did!

Run_to_da_hills

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure, but Wolber Super Champion Gentleman is the best rim name ever.

I want some!

Are they still into 32; 36 spoking?

Quigs Snr

Hi Tri111,

It could be that my body and brain are not functioning after the shock of actually getting some training in today, but am I reading you correctly here....
are you talking about putting clincher tyres onto tubular rims ?!

tri111 wrote: »

The wheels I have are Zipp 404s and the tyres are tubular Continental GP4000. However I think I'm going to change to Clinchers based on what the majority are saying here. So what sort of clinchers should I use with that wheel that are both easy to get on and off the wheel and are relatively fast?

Another issue is the valve length for Zipp 404s. As the rims are very wide I'll need tubes that have a long enough valve to use on these wheels - are these type of tubes widely available? Any suggestions?

The valve also brings me to another issue. One of the guys I was cycling with today got a puncture and he was using a CO2 canister to try to pump his tyre but it wouldn't work. Another guy said it may be down to the valve not being long enough. Is this true? Do valves need to be very long to use the CO2 canisters? (I've never used them before but need to learn for the HIM race).

Home:Ballyhoura

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I reading you correctly here....
are you talking about putting clincher tyres onto tubular rims ?!

Indeed, good question...it reads that way to me but I sincerely hope not! :eek:

Bikerbhoy

tri111 wrote: »

The wheels I have are Zipp 404s and the tyres are tubular Continental GP4000. However I think I'm going to change to Clinchers based on what the majority are saying here.

We presume you are changing wheels also when you state the above.... YES ???

Golfanatic

you could pump up your clinchers loads, i got away with 165 psi with no puncture, is that alot ye? i know you can get about 200+ in tubulars but 40psi wont be that big a difference?or you could find a tyre with a super high pressure rating. i wpould personally go with clinchers with a stupidly high pressure :P

gman2k

tri111 wrote: »

What does everyone think is the best type of tyre to use in a race situation - Clinchers or Tubulars? I'm thinking more in terms of being able to fix a puncture quickly rather than all out speed.

In my situation I will be doing a half ironman triathlon race in the summer where it will be a 90k non-drafting racing format. And I will need to be able to fix a puncture at speed if I get one so which is better to have in terms of fixing flats? I can fix clinchers fairly quickly but I've never had to fix a tubular before so don't actually know how. I'm aware they are glued onto the wheel so would this make it virtually impossible to fix a flat within 5 mins? I assume a whole new tyre would need to be glued on which I'm guessing would take a long time?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Well now, let's see - you said Race situation.....
What do most pros use in races? - Tubs.

Now I presume you are an amateur racer, so you will be fixing your own punctures during a race. If so, no matter what you are riding, clincher or tubs, you get a puncture and the race is over for you.
(BTW read somewhere recently that 9/10 race punctures are on clincher, 1/10 are the tubs.)
OK, clinchers are easier to repair on the road than tubs, but puncture prevention is easy with the tubs.
All you have to do is prep the tub with a tubeless liquid such as Stans, and away you go. People have been known to ride for a few years on the same tubs without puncturing. (obviously when they become baldy it's time to go). Have a look at this
I've recently changed to Tubs, and whilst I've not had any punctures yet, I'm amazed by the new feel of the bike with the tubs on, complete change of feel whilst on the road, and it's more than just the wider profile of the tub.
I carry a backup puncture solution - Vittoria Pitstop, which will get me get me home in an emergency, albeit at a lower PSI.
So, Tubs are the only way to go (for racing at least), but be prepared!

Quigs Snr

Come back to me when you have had a few punctures on those tubs gman. No way would I use them for an unsupported 90k half ironman. If you are in a race situation, standard road racing, tubs are fair enough. The race might be over but someone will stop and give you a wheel and there is always a neutral service car. In triathlon its different, many triathlons do not allow support vehicles at all. For a 90k time trial, which is what the OP is talking about, a bad puncture with tubs = hitchhiking, those quick fix solutions like pitstop do not always work and I say that from experience. Whereas the clincher can be switched in 3 minutes. No brainer.

The OP will probably be fine with tubs but they are a bigger risk, no doubt about that. We are talking a half ironman, its not like a road race where you can pull out after a lap and try again next Sunday, this seems like it will be his focus for the season. I don't see the point in rolling out there with tubs, pitstop and a set of rosary beads when greater peace of mind for such an important race can be had with clinchers. Sure you are more likely to puncture on clinchers, but you are more likely to be able to repair them quickly and effectively too with a comparitively light time penalty when framed against the duration of a half ironman. Also the performance advantage of the tubs is likely to be zero for this kind of racing.

tri111

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Come back to me when you have had a few punctures on those tubs gman. No way would I use them for an unsupported 90k half ironman. If you are in a race situation, standard road racing, tubs are fair enough. The race might be over but someone will stop and give you a wheel and there is always a neutral service car. In triathlon its different, many triathlons do not allow support vehicles at all. For a 90k time trial, which is what the OP is talking about, a bad puncture with tubs = hitchhiking, those quick fix solutions like pitstop do not always work and I say that from experience. Whereas the clincher can be switched in 3 minutes. No brainer.

The OP will probably be fine with tubs but they are a bigger risk, no doubt about that. We are talking a half ironman, its not like a road race where you can pull out after a lap and try again next Sunday, this seems like it will be his focus for the season. I don't see the point in rolling out there with tubs, pitstop and a set of rosary beads when greater peace of mind for such an important race can be had with clinchers. Sure you are more likely to puncture on clinchers, but you are more likely to be able to repair them quickly and effectively too with a comparitively light time penalty when framed against the duration of a half ironman. Also the performance advantage of the tubs is likely to be zero for this kind of racing.

Thanks for that Quigs. That's exactly what I was thinking when I read gman2k's post initially. Obviously he was confusing a bike race with a long distance triathlon. The race is certainly not over - 5 or 6 mins can easily be made up over 40/50k of cycling on hills and a 21k run. Many people can die a death on that run if they overcook the bike!

tri111

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Hi Tri111,

It could be that my body and brain are not functioning after the shock of actually getting some training in today, but am I reading you correctly here....
are you talking about putting clincher tyres onto tubular rims ?!

Forgive my ignorance on these matters but I realise now that my current race wheels are tubular rims so obviously I won't be putting clinchers on them. That leaves me with two options as far as I can see:

1) I risk using my current wheels with tubulars where I'm not confident at all of being able to fix a puncture on them. Plus it seems I have to add some weight to the bike by carrying spray gunk, one (or two) full new tubular tyres, CO2 cartridges and the other tools required to fix a flat. In comparison only need the tube, levers & cartridge for the clinchers.

2) I have to buy new aero wheels that allow clinchers to be fitted to them in which case I have to fork out a load of money.

So that's my dilemma. It's a shame to waste such good wheels because of the bloody tubular tyres. Don't know why I didn't get clinchers in the first place. I never had to think about these things for the shorter distance tris - if I got a puncture I just pulled out and walked back to transition. Not possible in a HIM if you are 20/30 miles from transition!

Having said that, in about 40 Olympic and sprint tris on the tubulars I have never gotten a puncture!

Quigs Snr

If tubs are what you have, then the question of tubs vs clinchers is redundant. Focus on getting the very best and quickest repair methods and making yourself familiar with them. Give yourself the best chance possible, e.g. Vittoria pitstop, a spare tub tied up under your saddle and some tub tape etc.... You are unlikely to get a flat on tubs, but you need to be prepared if you do.

On a slightly related topic. I was out for a spin in Mayo last year whilst the OH was doing Gael Force. My route crossed that of the race and I ended up fixing a puncture for a guy. He had turned up and was hoping for a time of 5hrs, no spare tubes, tyre levers, pumps etc... and he had been training for it for 9 months. I don't know if when considering the possibility of punctures this guy was planning on using the power of positive thinking or saying a quick prayer for some divine intervention at the top of Croagh Patrick, but if I hadn't turned up and fixed him up, he was walking 20k to the next transition area. It amazes me how many people take risks like that.

gman2k

Good discussion on weightweenies re Stans and tubs.
BTW, it's not all about weight, tubs are generally more comfortable on the road than clinchers.