Insurance on a UK Driving Licence with penalty points

in the pub

Hi all,

Need some advice....

I have a UK drivers licence. I have 9 penalty points on it (twice caught speeding and once using mobile phone-you get 3 points per offence)

I have recently moved to Ireland and am trying to get car insurance. Most of the insurance companies are not interested due to the points and the ones that will insure me are quoting over 3000 euro! This is with 4 years no claims bonus and having held the licence for over 15years!

So im looking at ways to get around this (legally off course!). I understand that if I transfer my licence to an Irish one the points do not transfer over? How easy is it to transfer over? Can I transfer it back again say after a year or two?

Any other suggestions/advice would be most welcomed. Thanks!

biko

Converting your driving licence to an Irish driving licence
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/motoring-1/driver-licensing/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit

Driving offences committed in other jurisdictions
Penalty points and endorsements on driving licences acquired in other states (including EU/EEA member states) are not recognised in Ireland. This is because these penalties have been issued by courts in other jurisdictions. In practice, this means that if you acquired penalty points or an endorsement on a driving licence before coming to Ireland, these penalty points or endorsements do not transfer over to an Irish driving licence. If, however, you have been banned from driving in another jurisdiction (for example, for drink driving) it may not be possible for you to exchange your existing licence for an Irish driving licence.

in the pub

Hey Magnus thanks

So with that in mind, lets say I went and converted my licence to an Irish one. And when getting an insurance quote, when asked how long have i held a full drivers licence for, i will have to reply like 2 days or something! Thus making the quote extremely expensive again?

Or do they take in to account that I have held a UK licence for so many years?

oldyouth

Forget what will or will not be stamped on your Irish licence if you get one, if an insurer asks you about motoring offences, answer them honestly, that's my advice

scudzilla

How old are the points? You do know that you don't have to declare them after 3yrs and after 4 they can be removed from your license?

Kristopherus

oldyouth wrote: »

Forget what will or will not be stamped on your Irish licence if you get one, if an insurer asks you about motoring offences, answer them honestly, that's my advice

+1.

What is or is not rcognised in Irish Law is not considered by any Irish insurer, and they are entitled to ask any question they like about your previous driving history.Would your Uk insurer cover you for driving in Ireland ?

scudzilla

Kristopherus wrote: »

+1.

What is or is not rcognised in Irish Law is not considered by any Irish insurer, and they are entitled to ask any question they like about your previous driving history.Would your Uk insurer cover you for driving in Ireland ?

For a maximum of 30days per year, and i don't think you're allowed to reside here

in the pub

in the pub wrote: »

So with that in mind, lets say I went and converted my licence to an Irish one. And when getting an insurance quote, when asked how long have i held a full drivers licence for, i will have to reply like 2 days or something! Thus making the quote extremely expensive again?

Or do they take in to account that I have held a UK licence for so many years?

I changed my Irish license to a UK one when I was moving back to Ireland for obvious reasons (cannot get penalty points here on it ) and it is valid from the day I passed my Irish test i.e. I got the license in 2008 but the license states that I obtained it in 2003 (when I passed my Irish test). When asked I tell my insurance company I have had my licence for the number of years since I passed my test not when I converted the license.

Anyway in my opinion thats beside the point, when the Irish insurance company asks how many points you have they are referring to Irish penalty points so hold onto the UK license and answer none to the penalty points question. You are not telling a lie, UK points are are not the concern of an Irish insurance company.

TJJP

Dempsey signs order to facilitate mutual recognition of driving disqualifications between the UK and Ireland 28 - 01 - 2010

Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey TD today announced a new provision to facilitate the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications between Ireland and the UK, which comes into operation today, 28 January 2010.

Speaking today, the Minister said: "The mutual recognition of driving disqualifications marks a very significant road safety measure because it aims to target some of the most dangerous drivers on our roads. It is a good example of the co-operation that exists between our three jurisdictions and separately, our joint determination to save lives and reduce injuries on our roads. "

Last year saw the lowest number of road deaths on Irish roads since records began. 2009 also saw Ireland take some very decisive steps to address road safety issues. These included the publication of the Road Traffic Bill, the introduction of a new certification and registration scheme for driving instructors and the finalisation of the safety camera contract by Minister Ahern and Garda Commissioner Murphy. This year will see other important measures coming into effect, as new items will be tested as part of the NCT to improve vehicle safety.

The Minister continued: "The purpose of this new Order is to put in place a mutual structure to recognise disqualifications between the UK and Ireland. By implementing this new measure, we are sending out a clear message that the most dangerous drivers on our roads are being targeted. I look forward to working with our colleagues in the three jurisdictions on this measure that will save lives on our roads.

Editors:

Background
The framework for the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications between Member States is contained in the 1998 EU Convention of Driving Disqualifications drawn up on the basis of Article K.3 of the Treaty on European Union on Driving Disqualifications done at Luxemburg on 17 June 1998.

In advance of the Convention coming into force, bilateral arrangements are allowed under Article 15.4 of the Convention.

Following the completion of the preparatory work between Ireland and the UK Authorities, to enable such arrangements to give effect to the Convention between our countries, a formal Declaration, under Article 15.2 of the Convention, was made to the Secretary General of the EU Council on 30th October 2009. A 90-day period is allowed before the measures can take effect. Accordingly, and with effect from 28 January 2010, Irish drivers disqualified in the UK and NI for certain road traffic offences will have their disqualifications recognised and applied in this country. Similarly, UK and NI drivers disqualified by Irish Courts will have their disqualifications recognised in their home country.

What offences are covered by the Convention?
The Convention relates to disqualifications arising from a range of traffic offences, such as:

Reckless or dangerous driving (whether or not resulting in death, injury or serious risk).
Wilful failure to carry out the obligations placed on drivers after being involved in road accidents (hit-and-run driving).

Driving a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or other substances affecting or diminishing the mental and physical abilities of a driver. Refusal to submit to alcohol and drug tests.

Driving a vehicle faster than the permitted speed.

Driving a vehicle whilst disqualified.

Other conduct constituting an offence for which a driving disqualification has been imposed by the State of the offence

- Of a duration of six months or more,
- Of a duration of less than six months where that has been agreed bilaterally between the Member States concerned.

ENDS

L1011

^ that refers to disqualifications NOT points. There is as yet and there is unlikely to be in the medium term any mutual recognition of points.

If the OP swaps to an Irish licence it will have 0 points and show as having started from whenever he got his first UK full licence.

oldyouth

Vada Some Newscaster wrote: »

Anyway in my opinion thats beside the point, when the Irish insurance company asks how many points you have they are referring to Irish penalty points so hold onto the UK license and answer none to the penalty points question.

You've decided that, have you? If that's what insurers meant, they would ask 'how many Irish penalty points do you have?'

Henry Ford III

MYOB wrote: »

^ that refers to disqualifications NOT points. There is as yet and there is unlikely to be in the medium term any mutual recognition of points.

If the OP swaps to an Irish licence it will have 0 points and show as having started from whenever he got his first UK full licence.

True, but it doesn't take away the insurance problem. If he tells lies on a proposal the cover is voidable.

L1011

Henry Ford III wrote: »

True, but it doesn't take away the insurance problem. If he tells lies on a proposal the cover is voidable.

He's not lying though - the UK points die with the UK licence. They cease to be. They are ex-points (insert rest of Monty Python routine here).

oldyouth

MYOB wrote: »

He's not lying though - the UK points die with the UK licence. They cease to be. They are ex-points (insert rest of Monty Python routine here).

Let's end this here. I've just pick the nearest proposal form to me from the shelf and it asks
'Have you been convicted of any offence of any nature or had any penalty points imposed?'
'If yes, please provide details'
No mention of jurisdiction regarding the points.

Henry Ford III

oldyouth wrote: »

Let's end this here. I've just pick the nearest proposal form to me from the shelf and it asks
'Have you been convicted of any offence of any nature or had any penalty points imposed?'
'If yes, please provide details'
No mention of jurisdiction regarding the points.

Exactly.

oldyouth

oldyouth wrote: »

You've decided that, have you? If that's what insurers meant, they would ask 'how many Irish penalty points do you have?'

No I didn't just decide that, thats is the way it is. Did you read the post by Magnus above with the information stating that penalty points from other countries do not transfer over here.

If you then think a little bit, when you organize your insurance it is insurance to drive your car in Ireland, your car will be kept at an Irish address and you will be driving on Irish roads, where the penalty points from outside Ireland do not apply so why should having these points that are not valid in this country have to be declared.

corktina

because if you dont declare them, your insurance company wont pay out if they find out about them during a claim.

Intrigued by the poster saying they moved back to Ireland but got a UK license before coming.I thought you had to take out an Irish license within a fixed operiod of moving to Ireland (IE if you are a permanent resident)

Alun

corktina wrote: »

Intrigued by the poster saying they moved back to Ireland but got a UK license before coming.I thought you had to take out an Irish license within a fixed operiod of moving to Ireland (IE if you are a permanent resident)

No. You can keep any EU licence until it expires.

Henry Ford III

Vada Some Newscaster wrote: »

No I didn't just decide that, thats is the way it is. Did you read the post by Magnus above with the information stating that penalty points from other countries do not transfer over here.

If you then think a little bit, when you organize your insurance it is insurance to drive your car in Ireland, your car will be kept at an Irish address and you will be driving on Irish roads, where the penalty points from outside Ireland do not apply so why should having these points that are not valid in this country have to be declared.

If you answer the question "have you ever been convicted of an offence......" deliberately incorrectly it's breaking the principle of "uberrima fides". The contract of insurance therefore is voidable at the discretion of the insurer.

It's nothing to do with penalty points or driving licences.

Henry Ford III

As Alun said valid until it expires.

Which is 2055. Unlike an Irish license you only have to update the pic every 10 years the actual license is valid until 2055.

To be honest it was worth getting for being handy to fit in the wallet if nothing else.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If you answer the question "have you ever been convicted of an offence......" deliberately incorrectly it's breaking the principle of "uberrima fides". The contract of insurance therefore is voidable at the discretion of the insurer.

It's nothing to do with penalty points or driving licences.

Penalty points are not a conviction. The only place you can get a conviction is in a court.

Henry Ford III

Semantics.

This is a standard assumption from one of the bigger insurers:-

"Have never been disqualified from driving, convicted of any driving or criminal offence, or have any prosecution pending for any driving or criminal offence".

Penalty points are a driving offence in my opinion.

bongi69

in the pub wrote: »

Hey Magnus thanks

So with that in mind, lets say I went and converted my licence to an Irish one. And when getting an insurance quote, when asked how long have i held a full drivers licence for, i will have to reply like 2 days or something! Thus making the quote extremely expensive again?

Or do they take in to account that I have held a UK licence for so many years?

It wont matter how long you've had the full licence, an Insurer takes it that you have one and thats that. The companies I dealt with in my professional capacity didn't even ask for the length of time the licence had been held when getting quotes. They would ask for an expiry date, just to keep tabs

On a side note, a family member of mine swapped his full South African licence (a "recognised licence") for a full Irish one, and the date that the licence was obtained was the date he got it. Even though he passed his test in SA in 1985

oldyouth

Vada Some Newscaster wrote: »

No I didn't just decide that, thats is the way it is. Did you read the post by Magnus above with the information stating that penalty points from other countries do not transfer over here.

I never said the penalty points transfer, I am just stating that Insurers do not ask what stamp marks are on the licence, they ask you about accidents, claims, convictions or motoring offences. Tell them anything but the truth at your peril is the advice I'm giving