What about us?

AngryEmployer

I am so frustrated and tired of employees riding the wave of trouble that's sweeping through our country. Does anyone think employers are enjoying the situation? No one enjoys firing employees and struggling to keep a business afloat. Many disgruntled employees are abusing the situation and making unfair dismissal cases against employers who don't deserve it. I say what about us? What about MY rights?

Reloc8

Well, if the unfair dismissals claims are not well-founded, that's what the Employment Appeals Tribunal & Courts are there for.

I guess rights and remedies are in place to protect the person with the weaker bargaining hand in any relationship, and traditionally the employee is subject to the conditions laid down by the employer and accordingly may need rights to protect them from abuse. Of course employers have rights, sat the right to dismiss...albeit not unfairly...the right to make redundant where there are grounds for so doing, the right to challenge strike action if it is not legal etc. I agree that, in the current climate, employers may feel the system works against them, but when things were booming there were many employees who felt that their input into the success of businesses was not reflected in their conditions. I do suspect that the EAT is more willing to consider defences like redundancy and treat applications say based on constructive dismissal with less leniancy in the current climate.

cafecolour

I did a very brief google search for stats. Only found some for the UK, but what I found, it looked like in a year to year comparison, unfair dismissal claims rose 29% while unemployment rose 44%.

As the unfair dismissal claim rose less then unemployment, that actually means people are less likely to claim 'unfair dismissal' now then pre-recession. It's easier to get rid of people in a big redundancy then individually, where they feel singled out. Obviously that's only an advantage for bigger employers though - if you only have 10 staff and have to let one of them go, they may feel singled out regardless.

However, redundancy claims actually rose a bit higher (48%) - so they are more likely to try to get more money out of you to go (probably fearing a longer time before they can get a job).

Reloc8

A lot of problems arise from employers not knowing or not caring about how to do things properly - especially in relation to redundancies - leaving a) the person let go perceiving that they have in fact been unfairly dismissed and b) the employer vulnerable to claim.

Sleipnir

AngryEmployer wrote: »

. Many disgruntled employees are abusing the situation and making unfair dismissal cases against employers who don't deserve it. I say what about us? What about MY rights?

If an employer follows due process when letting an employee go, they have nothing to worry about.

AngryEmployer

I suppose the trick is wading through all the mumbo jumbo and understanding the actual requirements.

Reloc8

The wierd thing is lots of them don't want to 'waste' money on getting advice before they do something, then they complain about having to pay for representation when they do it, and lose the case anyway because of what they did. Frequently they're back up in front of an EAT or Rights Commissioner months/a year later having done exactly they same thing and still giving out about having to pay their lawyers for the last one.

Its like me deciding to save money on an electrician, blowing myself up, being forced to engage one to get the juice back on again and a year later here's me back in the shower with the toaster deciding to have a go at saving some time in the mornings again.

Dempo1

What about you? it astonishes me to come across an employer looking for sympathy knowing as i do that we have one of the most regulated and well published employment law regulations anywhere in the world. Any employer can easily source all the information required to insure they are adhering to legislation this avoiding claims for unfair dismissal. I had to handle numerous redundancies over the past few months as a Manager and found it relatively straight forward to go through the process to insure those affected by what is a very difficult decision are consulted and treated has compassionately as possible. Whilst i don't speak for every employee, i believe problems arise when employees are not consulted and treated decently and sadly all to many employers don't grasp how to address difficult decisions.

I have also had to dismiss employees in the past, Obviously having to dismiss an employee is another matter entirely but again there are simple guidelines to follow and if there are genuine ground to dismiss someone and proper procedure is followed, employee's have few outlets or mechanisms to instigate unfair dismissal actions. Nera and the rights commissioners will of course investigate claims (as is their requirement), however it is my experience that they quickly identify unwarranted and unfounded claims of unfair dismissal.

Sadly i have come across too many employers who act far to hastily when dealing with employee issues without considering the consequences. I am not suggesting employees are always right but employers need to face difficult decisions honestly rather than looking for the easy way out, particularly if they have to down size.

dermot_sheehan

Number of Employees > Number of Employers

therefore

Amount of Electorate who are employees > Amount of Electorate who are employers

therefore

Political system is more pro employee then pro employer

therefore

laws made by that political system are more pro employee then pro employer.

Dempo1

I have to disagree, Employment rights are there to protect both employers and employee's. Obviously its the employer who has to defend actions of unfair dismissal etc but equally employers have numerous rights to defend if as i stated proper procedures are followed. From a political perspective it is obvious there are more citizens who are employed as opposed to employ this does not mean the political system is against employers. Indeed over the past 12 months, more and more employers have been availing of numerous mechanisms to deal with the economic downturn such as PRSI exemptions, Redundancy (payments which employers can claim back 60% of the net cost), reduced working hours etc. I still maintain employers get themselves in a knot by not following procedures including those where dismissal is the only option through bad behavior, practices etc. Fair enough there are many unpleasant scenarios where employers do not get on with certain employees but again the trial periods should enable employers to ascertain a certain employees suitabilities or capabilities, Current legislation does not cover employees with less than 13 months service, i suggest any employer who has not figured out an employee is not working out during this time frame has their finger off the pulse. Legislation does however not cover personal issues, animosity or dislike of an employee hence the protection is in place to cover these issues. I have also observed new management or changes in same can lead to staff relation issues, primarly because of personality clashes. Change is disfficult thing to manage but the devil you know and who has service is better than the devil you don't know.

Reloc8

gabhain7 wrote: »

Number of Employees > Number of Employers

therefore

Amount of Electorate who are employees > Amount of Electorate who are employers

therefore

Political system is more pro employee then pro employer

therefore

laws made by that political system are more pro employee then pro employer.

Sorry...are you saying that the law (I presume generally (?)) favours employees over employers, and that this is because there are more employees in the country than there are employers ?

maidhcII

gabhain7 wrote: »

Number of Employees > Number of Employers

therefore

Amount of Electorate who are employees > Amount of Electorate who are employers

therefore

Political system is more pro employee then pro employer

therefore

laws made by that political system are more pro employee then pro employer.

I wouldn't be that cynical to be honest.The reality is there is a difference in bargaining power and legislation has brought us from the position things were at during the industrial revolution to where we are today.

Many equally (but differently) cynical people would argue the policitical system favours the employers, and the "big boys" when it comes to wealth and taxation because they are in golden circles whether real or imaginary.