Why don't zombies attack each other?

musicformedia

Ok, not sure if its been asked here before - why on earth do zombies never attack each other?

Do they have a natural instinct about whos dead and who's not, or is it just a case of "dress up like a zombie and moan and they won't notice you"?

Always kind of annoyed me really - seems a fatal flaw in the films - any thoughts?

ScumLord

It's not really Zombies your fighting though, it's the disease/virus. It's quite likely the virus can make people attack the targets it needs to infect, it happens all the time in the natural world.

musicformedia

How does the virus know who has it/has not got it though?

ScumLord

It doesn't know but viruses can invoke certain responses in their victims that aid them in spreading to new victims, like sneezing or climbing up high as they do to some insects. If the response they invoke works that virus spreads, if it doesn't that virus dies. It's natural selection. This would explain why the Zombie virus would be rare, it's method of spread isn't the best if it requires biting to spread it.

ItSheepDawg

Ive alwayswondered that myself

Micky Dolenz

I agree with Scumlord, the virus has no interest an infected host, but wishes to mutiply with a fresh host. The virus wants to survive, infected new hosts is a way of ensuring this.

EraseAndRewind

So i guess pretending to be a zombie a la 'Shaun of the dead' isnt the way to go no??:D

the_syco

Meh. I'd say zombie would much on all near by, including other zombies.

MacBrayne

I suppose the first questions to ask is why zombies attack people. Sure it's the virus wanting to spread, but which biological function is active?

If it is a hunger for meat, they would likely leave other zombies behind because their flesh is rotting.

If it is, as Tom Smith postulates in his song 'Undead Happy Trees', that "brains are what they crave, because they know that's what they need" then you have the drive for fresh gray matter, which seems to be one of the first things in the body that the virus attacks and infects.

All we know for sure from the Jon Coulton song re: Your Brains which is that they are not interested at all in eyeballs.

ScumLord

The thing is though if the Zombies don't go for fresh uninfected victims the virus dies. The virus can instill a desire to carry out a certain act, because the host is dead it's the only desire that goes through their mind. If the host can't differentiate between uninfected and infected the virus can't spread and is wiped out by it's own design.

I'd say they would go for infected people as time goes by as they really wouldn't be able to tell the difference due to the degradation of their senses, but fresh Zombies would need to have a desire to get close to living people so they can pass of the virus.

Ginja Ninja

well a virus isn't sentient enough to be actively seeking out human victims,but with social degradation and senesory depravation,a zombies mind could be convinced that humans are the prey and animals to a lesser extent.

but never to hunt only humans,a fresh zombie would be the same as a humn body,at least until the virus has altered the body enough to make a noticable change in the appearance/smell

DeBunny

An interesting question. I think the answer would be the same as the answer to the question, why don't wolves eat each other?

Although not as socially sophisticated as the wolf, zombies, or the zombie virus to be more accurate, is a cooperative organism that requires team work and the power of numbers to be successful.

I am unaware of any zombie ''films'' but according to some documentaries I've seen, zombies are occasionally, like wolves, forced to turn on each other in time of hardship when when food is scarce and survival of the individual becomes paramount.

Now a pack of zombie wolves, that's something you don't wanna **** with.

ScumLord

The virus doesn't need food though, all it needs are healthy cells to replicate in. Viruses often cause people to act in odd ways to ensure the virus can spread.

Sneezing and coughing when you have the flu is ideal for the virus because that allows it to spread to a new host. Now there where more than likely flu viruses that didn't cause people to sneeze and cough which meant that particular strain of the flu virus couldn't spread and would eventually cause it to die out.

The same would be true for the Zombie virus, it would cause many different side effects (randomly, not out of any kind of intent) and the successful ones would thrive while the unsuccessful ones die out.

Remember that a virus isn't really a living thing in the same way a bacteria is. All it does is replicate and mutate.

DeBunny

ScumLord wrote: »

The virus doesn't need food though, all it needs are healthy cells to replicate in.

Yes, I overlooked this. Where wolves need food, zombies/the zombie virus needs hosts, and when competition for healthy hosts increases zombies are forced to turn on each other.

I would have to say however that a virus is indeed a life form. If a virus was found on Mars that would qualify as as ''life on Mars'
All humans do is replicate and mutate. Notably at a much slower rate than a virus.

Doctor DooM

DeBunny wrote: »

I would have to say however that a virus is indeed a life form. If a virus was found on Mars that would qualify as as ''life on Mars'
All humans do is replicate and mutate. Notably at a much slower rate than a virus.

Actually, this is not 100% accepted. From zombiepedia:

Opinions differ on whether viruses are a form of life, or organic structures that interact with living organisms. They have been described as "organisms at the edge of life",[52] since they resemble organisms in that they possess genes and evolve by natural selection,[53] and reproduce by creating multiple copies of themselves through self-assembly. Although they have genes, they do not have a cellular structure, which is often seen as the basic unit of life. Viruses do not have their own metabolism, and require a host cell to make new products. They therefore cannot naturally reproduce outside a host cell[54] —although bacterial species such as rickettsia and chlamydia are considered living organisms despite the same limitation.[55][56] Accepted forms of life use cell division to reproduce, whereas viruses spontaneously assemble within cells. They differ from autonomous growth of crystals as they inherit genetic mutations while being subject to natural selection. Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends further credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.[1]

musicformedia

OK so - to add another question to the debate

How do zombies know who is a zombie and who is not? Is it smell, appearance or something else? It its just smell and appearance, well thats easy to copy (Shaun of the Dead comes to mind lol )

ScumLord

It would have to be a combination of all the of senses. We've talked about this sort of thing in great detail before and the general consensus was (as far as I can remember) that the virus may be able to reanimate a corpse and slow the rate of decay but there's no way it could stop the process of decay meaning all Zombies would eventually end up unable to see, hear, taste or feel anything. Fresh Zombies are the real problem old Zombies only pose a booby trap danger in that they could lie dormant waiting for a passer by which would require very little sensory information.

DeBunny

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Actually, this is not 100% accepted. From zombiepedia:

Opinions differ on whether viruses are a form of life, or organic structures that interact with living organisms. They have been described as "organisms at the edge of life",[52] since they resemble organisms in that they possess genes and evolve by natural selection,[53] and reproduce by creating multiple copies of themselves through self-assembly. Although they have genes, they do not have a cellular structure, which is often seen as the basic unit of life. Viruses do not have their own metabolism, and require a host cell to make new products. They therefore cannot naturally reproduce outside a host cell[54] —although bacterial species such as rickettsia and chlamydia are considered living organisms despite the same limitation.[55][56] Accepted forms of life use cell division to reproduce, whereas viruses spontaneously assemble within cells. They differ from autonomous growth of crystals as they inherit genetic mutations while being subject to natural selection. Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends further credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.[1]

I stand corrected. My secondary school biology is a bit blurry. Is this widely accepted or would some scientists see virus' as a life form?

ScumLord

DeBunny wrote: »

I stand corrected. My secondary school biology is a bit blurry. Is this widely accepted or would some scientists see virus' as a life form?

It's hard to say, they only seem alive while they're at work inside a cell. When they're not replicating they lie completely dormant and show no signs of life. It's wrong to say they're not a living thing but they're a unique type of life.

Ginja Ninja

it's up for debate,they don't have the classic signs of life[lack any form of self replication] and don't fully fit in any of the kingdoms of organisms.


here's one,always clear a room,military-style and no more than 3 to a room,regardless of size.

Doctor DooM

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

it's up for debate,they don't have the classic signs of life[lack any form of self replication] and don't fully fit in any of the kingdoms of organisms.


here's one,always clear a room,military-style and no more than 3 to a room,regardless of size.

People forget that "life" is just an arbitrary tag for an natural phenomenom given by scientist doing the best they can.

There's no line between "alive" and "organic" save for that which we decide.

Reminds me of the thing with species- ancestor a from 20,000 years ago can mate with ancestor b from 10,000 years ago. b can mate with c, but there's too many differences between a and c for them to produce viable off spring.

So is there 1, 2, or three species involved here?

The answer is of course that species is an artificial idea which changes over time to reflect scientific thinking.

unreggd

Who came up with the concept that a virus would make the host infect others?

IMO, a zombie virus would alter the way the host thinks, making them attack others for several reasons, but I don't think the virus purposely makes these alterations occur

Also, there's many different reasons for zombies feedin on humans

Resi: Brain is reduced to the basic functions, ie the need to feed

Return of the Living Dead: Zombies are basically rotting humans, who feel the pain of it, which only brains will ease

Night of the living dead is a tough one. Mainly because it was something Paranormal that caused reanimation. Zombies in that film ate humans, and slugs, but not eachother. and those attacked didn't show signs of a viral infection, more so they died from blood loss, then got zombified

Regardless, its believed that all zombies still have some memory, and minimal intelligence, so as was said look and smell of others could affect appeal

ScumLord

unreggd wrote: »

Who came up with the concept that a virus would make the host infect others?

That's all that viruses do, that's their sole purpose. It's not a concept it's accepted as fact.

IMO, a zombie virus would alter the way the host thinks, making them attack others for several reasons, but I don't think the virus purposely makes these alterations occur

It wouldn't no, the virus would cause side effects in the host.

Also, there's many different reasons for zombies feedin on humans

Resi: Brain is reduced to the basic functions, ie the need to feed

Return of the Living Dead: Zombies are basically rotting humans, who feel the pain of it, which only brains will ease

Night of the living dead is a tough one. Mainly because it was something Paranormal that caused reanimation. Zombies in that film ate humans, and slugs, but not eachother. and those attacked didn't show signs of a viral infection, more so they died from blood loss, then got zombified

Zombies have no need to feed on anything, their body is shut down they can't digest food or pump the food to the organs and muscles that could use the food.

unreggd

I meant the virus controlling the host to infect

Like, a cold is a virus, but it doesnt make us want to purposely infect each other

Also, the need to feed could be a habitual instinct, not so much acting on actual hunger


In-depth T-virus summary:
The T-Virus is like any other virus. It is a protein crystal with an RNA core. As the crystal makes contact with a cell's membrane, it destroys it and inserts its RNA into the cell. The cell absorbs the viral genome into its own DNA, which takes over the cell's functions. The cell begins to produce offspring of the original virus. The new viruses are then released from the host cell and infect the neighboring cells, which starts the process all over again.
What the T-Virus does is kills any living mitochondria and replaces the dead ones with itself. The virus then combines with other cells to produce energy. The energy produced is just enough to power the motor neurons and the basic lower brain functions. Not only that, but this bypasses the entire circulatory system, which makes the heart and lungs redundant systems that can be disposed of.
However, the T-Virus can only properly function by consuming the cell in order to produce its energy and to divide via mitosis to spread around the body. This slow breakdown of cells leads to the necrotizing effects seen on most BOWs. The virus also incorporates itself into the host's RNA, which substantially alters it. This is why creatures, such as bees and spiders, only have very minor mutation, such as increased size, when compared to the human mutation caused by the virus. This is due to their lower stance in the evolutionary chain.
Should the human host be alive at the time of T-Virus infection, all higher brain functions are destroyed as the virus simply dissolves away the frontal lobes. This leaves only the telencephalon, better known as the cerebrum, to govern behavior. This leaves the infected host with a very animalistic behavior. As the virus spreads, it damages the hypothalamus. This produces a massive flood of neurotransmitters, enzymes, and hormones such as norepinephrine and dopamine. These effects, combined with the painful symptoms of the infection, induces a psychotic rage, persistent hunger, and increased aggressiveness in those infected.
Should the human host be dead at the time of infection, only enough energy is produced to power the lower brain functions. These functions are responsible for the most primal instincts, such as walking and eating.
In either case, their late-stage appearance and behavior are characteristics of their name-sake, that of the zombie.
Should a late-stage human host be rendered unconscious, the body will lay in a dormant phase appearing to be dead. In actuality the host is rapidly mutating due to the T-Virus becoming hyperactive. Within the timeframe of an hour, the decayed skeletal and muscular system is reconstructed into a stronger and more durable form, development can be seen of sharp canine teeth and razor claws, fresh blood seeps into remaining skin giving it a reddish hue, advances in decomposition, and intact eyes become a bright white. Umbrella researchers at the Arklay Laboratory have dubbed this stage as an V-ACT, commonly referred to as a Crimson Head. The brain is then jolted back to consciousness with a slight but important increase in intelligence, and large increase in agility and aggressiveness. As a consequence of this rapid mutation, cellular breakdown hits a critical point where the host cannot regenerate properly any longer and can effectively be killed permanently, given enough damage.

Ginja Ninja

there are a lot of holes and inconcistencies in that piece,but for the sake logial argument,we'll take it as canon

ScumLord

unreggd wrote: »

I meant the virus controlling the host to infect

Like, a cold is a virus, but it doesnt make us want to purposely infect each other

In a sense it does. It's not consciously doing anything but it does make you sneeze a cough which does facilitate it's spread to other hosts. Other viruses have other tactics

Also, the need to feed could be a habitual instinct, not so much acting on actual hunger

In-depth T-virus summary:
The T-Virus is like any other virus. It is a protein crystal with an RNA core. As the crystal makes contact with a cell's membrane, it destroys it and inserts its RNA into the cell. The cell absorbs the viral genome into its own DNA, which takes over the cell's functions. The cell begins to produce offspring of the original virus. The new viruses are then released from the host cell and infect the neighboring cells, which starts the process all over again.
What the T-Virus does is kills any living mitochondria and replaces the dead ones with itself. The virus then combines with other cells to produce energy. The energy produced is just enough to power the motor neurons and the basic lower brain functions. Not only that, but this bypasses the entire circulatory system, which makes the heart and lungs redundant systems that can be disposed of.
However, the T-Virus can only properly function by consuming the cell in order to produce its energy and to divide via mitosis to spread around the body. This slow breakdown of cells leads to the necrotizing effects seen on most BOWs. The virus also incorporates itself into the host's RNA, which substantially alters it. This is why creatures, such as bees and spiders, only have very minor mutation, such as increased size, when compared to the human mutation caused by the virus. This is due to their lower stance in the evolutionary chain.
Should the human host be alive at the time of T-Virus infection, all higher brain functions are destroyed as the virus simply dissolves away the frontal lobes. This leaves only the telencephalon, better known as the cerebrum, to govern behavior. This leaves the infected host with a very animalistic behavior. As the virus spreads, it damages the hypothalamus. This produces a massive flood of neurotransmitters, enzymes, and hormones such as norepinephrine and dopamine. These effects, combined with the painful symptoms of the infection, induces a psychotic rage, persistent hunger, and increased aggressiveness in those infected.
Should the human host be dead at the time of infection, only enough energy is produced to power the lower brain functions. These functions are responsible for the most primal instincts, such as walking and eating.
In either case, their late-stage appearance and behavior are characteristics of their name-sake, that of the zombie.
Should a late-stage human host be rendered unconscious, the body will lay in a dormant phase appearing to be dead. In actuality the host is rapidly mutating due to the T-Virus becoming hyperactive. Within the timeframe of an hour, the decayed skeletal and muscular system is reconstructed into a stronger and more durable form, development can be seen of sharp canine teeth and razor claws, fresh blood seeps into remaining skin giving it a reddish hue, advances in decomposition, and intact eyes become a bright white. Umbrella researchers at the Arklay Laboratory have dubbed this stage as an V-ACT, commonly referred to as a Crimson Head. The brain is then jolted back to consciousness with a slight but important increase in intelligence, and large increase in agility and aggressiveness. As a consequence of this rapid mutation, cellular breakdown hits a critical point where the host cannot regenerate properly any longer and can effectively be killed permanently, given enough damage.

I wouldn't see the monsters in the resident evil series as zombies. They go against Max Brooks and are therefore invalid. There are allot of problems and impossibility's in there like spontaneous (useful) mutations.

unreggd

Sticking with once source, and one possible outcome? You're screwed!!!!

ScumLord

unreggd wrote: »

Sticking with once source, and one possible outcome? You're screwed!!!!

It's not that I'm sticking with one source I'm just eliminating highly unlikely sources.

I' don't accept running Zombies because I think their beyond the physical limitations of the human body and I don't accept most fantasy versions of Zombies because all modern horror is just one up on the last one.
If you bring out a Zombie film the next guys says "ya that's scary but what if they could run" and while that makes a good film it's not grounded anywhere in reality.
Things like specific rapid mutations like someone growing fangs over the course of a day is next to impossible how do you get bone to change overnight? it can't be done, rapid mutations have never been of any use to any living creature.

As an atheist I don't accept any form of paranormal Zombies.

Ginja Ninja

yeeaaahh,little thing about "rapid mutation" because it's a term thrown around a lot in scifi and horror.if something mutated that quickly in your body,IT WOULD KILL YOU,or at least your body would kill it and the amount of damage that would do would probably kill you.

I.E cancer; a slight mutation in lymphocytes that negates the "stop" function in your white blood cells,that kills everyone[sorry to be so blunt about it] but it's the genetic bane of the human race, no one ,nowhere is immune from cancer.

IF something mutated your cells to do something different[like I dunno eat the human race] your body would more than likely[not 100 %,but mostly] attack those cells as an outside threat[too different from your body to be local] and the body gets destroyed[well,it would do some irreperable damage and probably kill you long before you even had a fully mutated hand,never mind a body/brain]

Also,I think the "turn around rate" for a human body[as in,all your cells being replaced by new ones] is about 2 year,so with out regeneration and excluding decomposition,a zombie would have "recycled" in about 2 years,maybe a bit more dues to lack of functional blastocysts[the repo-men of your body]

Raemie

Are you sure they dont attack each other? Zombies tend to look fairly knackered, all that might not be from the initial attack

SmileyPaul

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't see the monsters in the resident evil series as zombies. They go against Max Brooks and are therefore invalid.

and there! is the post I was waiting for thanks scumlord. I heard the mention of a couple of different theories above. but I believe as already pointed out that the general consensus has always been to go by the word of the solenum virus.
viruses copy themselves. meaning every single cell (while not directly connected) has the same goal which is to replicate itself or pass its genetic code to the next generation. through this genetic code comes instinct. which to be honest all of you are now going.... "viruses dont have instinct!" what is instinct? a sign of life? and intelligence? but like el doom has already asked what is life? if we ARE to say viruses aren't living because they need a host to survive then can we count ourselves as living? (yes Im backing into final fantasy 7 here, and a bit of avatar :P) we are just living on earth which can be called our host.....


I kinda branched off there XD but to give my opinion as to why zombies dont attack each other.

1. max brooks states that research has shown that Z's have never been lured into any trap using dead meat before. he also notes that a fresh Z has a keen sense of smell which must be able to pick up the scent of decay very soon after a persons death. making them an unwanted target
2. as all cells are perfect copies of each other (unless a mutation has occured which has not been recorded) then we must be lead to believe that the viruses objective has never changed= infect the living so they can infect more living.



and I think thats about it. sorry for the ramble but its been WAAAAAY too long since I posted in here

for those that read all of the above thanks XD

and for the oldies that I still recognise hopefully they'll still welcome me when Z day comes

SmileyPaul has returned
and he's workin on getting his original acc back :P