Jehovah's Witnesses

branie

This morning was one of those rare occasions when they came to my door. It got me wondering if there was anyone here who had Jehovah's witnesses at their door, and how they were dealt with.

antiskeptic

branie wrote: »

This morning was one of those rare occasions when they came to my door. It got me wondering if there was anyone here who had Jehovah's witnesses at their door, and how they were dealt with.

I had them come knocking just before Christmas. So I invited them in and put on the kettle. They called back a few times on passing and were very pleasant (if insistantly agenda-driven) to deal with.

As with the last time (a few years back), they seem to have backed off once their views were challenged by alternative takes on what they were asserting certain Bible passages to mean.

chozometroid

antiskeptic wrote: »

I had them come knocking just before Christmas. So I invited them in and put on the kettle. They called back a few times on passing and were very pleasant (if insistantly agenda-driven) to deal with.

As with the last time (a few years back), they seem to have backed off once their views were challenged by alternative takes on what they were asserting certain Bible passages to mean.

I've yet to have this experience. What passages do they use to promote their beliefs, if you remember?

antiskeptic

chozometroid wrote: »

I've yet to have this experience. What passages do they use to promote their beliefs, if you remember?

It wasn't so much passages as isolated verses onto which was hung the 'patter' being presented. After spending time on forums like this, where an argument can be dismantled upon examination of a word, the torrent of assertion-based prose tacked onto single verses took a bit of getting used to. It was quite bamboozling just to try to figure a mode of discussion that didn't involve being piled on with patter.


The impression I had was of a team (there were always two: lead speaker and support (whether teacher/pupil?)) equipped with a number of standard "sales patters" (one of which I remember being that "God didn't intend the world to be in the state it is") supported by a number of isolated verses. It was quite fast moving and gently insistant - but not much able (nor I suspect designed) to withstand scrutiny by way of questioning. They were patently trying to appeal to what must be a commonly held sense in people that something is seriously wrong with the world. Consider it a populist, generalist approach - not much taking into account the place where you indicate yourself to be. You'll sense being talked at - not being listened to.

Because the cults are aligned with the truth on so many mainline points, it's hard to get to the detail of difference. Before I could get to the manner by which people are saved or no (in their view), they'd given up coming.

Perhaps the best thing to do is not to challenge to much on the way until such time as central issues can be addressed. I just found it (morally) difficult to consider nodding assent as if ignorant/seeking until such time and the way of salvation would come up then hitting them broadside with the poverty of JW's works doctrine.

I won the battle but lost the war perhaps/

ps: on their first visit they'll leave you with a booklet (quite densely packed) with the various doctrina laid out. The thing to do is probably to play it gentle/interested the first time round, examine the booklet for some clear area of interest/conflict with Christianity and prepare your biblical argument for the next time they come.

SadieSue

I just moved to Montreal a few years ago and my French is not that great, so once they hear my accent they back off. There is a Jahovas Witness church not too far from where I live also. They don't call around here very often anymore.

doctoremma

branie wrote: »

This morning was one of those rare occasions when they came to my door. It got me wondering if there was anyone here who had Jehovah's witnesses at their door, and how they were dealt with.

I had one visit some 10 years ago. She was the mother of a work colleague so I invited her in and made her tea. I let her chat for a bit and then ripped into her (politely, of course). She couldn't respond to one single question I asked her. She came the the next week, mind, with a gaggle of kids - maybe this is a softening tactic but the idea of 6-year olds being dragged around as religious pawns turned my stomach. After conveying this idea to her, she never came back again.

I worked with her son for some time after. After some discreet digging, it turned out she had converted from Catholicism during a time of intense personal crisis. He felt it was a phase that she might grow out of. I haven't seen them for years so no idea if that turned out to be true.

PDN

It would be pretty rare for anyone to 'grow out of' an involvement with the JWs. They clung to their beliefs (very bravely) when many of them were sent to the deathcamps during the Nazi Holocaust - and also endured great persecution because of their refusal to serve in the military under Stalin et al.

My own experience (we have a few ex-JWs in our church) is that arguing about their beliefs rarely goes anywhere. By arguing against them you are, by definition, doing the work of Satan, so they won't listen to you.

However, for the Christian posters here, sharing your own testimony about your relationship with Jesus Christ is something else. All the JWs I've met lacked any real concept of having a personal relationship with God. Their religion was all about serving Jehovah and getting rewarded for being good servants. Therefore personal testimony is much more powerful than argument with them.

doctoremma

PDN wrote: »

It would be pretty rare for anyone to 'grow out of' an involvement with the JWs. They clung to their beliefs (very bravely) when many of them were sent to the deathcamps during the Nazi Holocaust - and also endured great persecution because of their refusal to serve in the military under Stalin et al.

My own experience (we have a few ex-JWs in our church) is that arguing about their beliefs rarely goes anywhere. By arguing against them you are, by definition, doing the work of Satan, so they won't listen to you.

I wonder what the overall movement between groups is (JW - other Christian - non-believer). Why do people leave the Jehovah's Witness denomination? Why do they join? I can't imagine that if a non-believer finds god, that JW is the obvious place to explore that. Wouldn't you start out a bit more gently? Is it easy for people to leave?

dlofnep

A guy I did a course in FAS a few years back with was one. He was quite possibly the most paranoid person I ever met. His parent's were extremely strict, and had already disowned their other son for what would be otherwise known in normal society as having a life. He didn't actually believe in any of it, but he told me about how he was expected to trawl the streets attempting to convert people to something he himself didn't give a toss about - just to not be disowned by his parents.

He used to smoke cigarettes and watching him was quite possibly the most hilarious (or sad) thing ever. He used to dive behind walls, thinking that every car was his parents coming to spy on him. A truly weird, but genuinely nice chap.

On top of that - I remember 2 of them coming to my house about 3 or 4 years back, and I was shocked by how driven they were. There was no logic or reason you could bring to them, they flat out refused (politely) to accept any arguments. It's like they lock themselves in a bubble.

Stephentlig

Jehovahs witnesses claim that only 144,000 people will be eligible to enter heaven for eternity. They qoute the following passage from Revelation 7. Notice that this group is identified as male Virgins ( cf.Rev 14 ). Jehovah's witnesses dont beleive in consecrated celibacy. Also, since the number of 144,000 is a symbolic nnumber ( much of what is presented in the Book of revelation is symbolic), it doesnt mean that only that number will be in heaven. Most importantly, as following verses show, all Christians who are faithful to Christ will go to heaven.

Rev 7:1-8

Revelation 14:1-5

Philppians 3:21

1 John 3:2

1 thessalonians 4:13-18

Phillipians 3:20

Romans 8:16-17

and finally 2Peter 1:4

Stephentlig

also Jehovah witnesses beleive that once the body dies the soul dies too. my goodness, you'd might as well be atheist.

they came while I was out to my house in Scotland before my conversion to the Roman Catholic Church, and my girlfriend at the time opened the door, apparently when she went to go and shut the door, the women put there foot in the door and wouldnt allow it.

I had mormon people come around the other day, It was morning time and I just opened the door, recognised who they were and said ''morning lads sorry but I'm not interested'' one of them replied ''have you heard about what it is we do?'' ''Yes, but I'm Catholic and intend to remain that way, so no thank you lads'' then they stood there and tryed to talk me around and I just said *shutting the door* ''Bye lads''.

you have to shut the door on them, as they wont take no for an answer.
I dont debate with them, I grow weary debating with folks who have already made their mind up. Like Jesus said to the disciples I just wipe the dust from my sandals and move on.

PDN

What's the difference between a Jehovah's Witness and a Skoda?

You can close the door on a Jehovah's Witness! :pac:

keano_afc

Stephentlig wrote: »

also Jehovah witnesses beleive that once the body dies the soul dies too. my goodness, you'd might as well be atheist.

they came while I was out to my house in Scotland before my conversion to the Roman Catholic Church, and my girlfriend at the time opened the door, apparently when she went to go and shut the door, the women put there foot in the door and wouldnt allow it.

I had mormon people come around the other day, It was morning time and I just opened the door, recognised who they were and said ''morning lads sorry but I'm not interested'' one of them replied ''have you heard about what it is we do?'' ''Yes, but I'm Catholic and intend to remain that way, so no thank you lads'' then they stood there and tryed to talk me around and I just said *shutting the door* ''Bye lads''.

you have to shut the door on them, as they wont take no for an answer.
I dont debate with them, I grow weary debating with folks who have already made their mind up. Like Jesus said to the disciples I just wipe the dust from my sandals and move on.

Yeah, know the feeling...:pac:

Stephentlig

keano_afc wrote: »

Yeah, know the feeling...:pac:

but Keano I've never seen you debate with anyone before, have you ever seen that film trading places with eddie murphy in it? if so, have you ever seen the part where he is in Jail with these two big black african americans ? one does all the talking and the other guy just keeps saying ''YEAH'' lol reminds me of you Keano :pac::P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-NPzpVrmAw&feature=related

chozometroid

Stephentlig wrote: »

also Jehovah witnesses beleive that once the body dies the soul dies too. my goodness, you'd might as well be atheist.

Well "soul" is just a living person/animal, so they are correct. As for the spirit, it is the breath of life that returns to God. So, they are not comparable to atheists. They are different, though. :pac:

krudler

PDN wrote: »

What's the difference between a Jehovah's Witness and a Skoda?

You can close the door on a Jehovah's Witness! :pac:

Wonder how long anyone who made the same joke in here about christians would last:rolleyes:

PDN

krudler wrote: »

Wonder how long anyone who made the same joke in here about christians would last:rolleyes:

Longer than you.

Thomas828

By and large I'm quite distrustful of people who go about in public from door to door preaching. I haven't had a Jehovah's Witness call at my door for some years. The last time that happened was when I was living in a block of flats and they could only talk to me through the intercom. I already hear the Word of God every Sunday in church. I can switch on UCB radio or open the Bible or visit this forum or any of the countless Christian websites. I dont need Jehovahs Witnesses.

keano_afc

Stephentlig wrote: »

but Keano I've never seen you debate with anyone before, have you ever seen that film trading places with eddie murphy in it? if so, have you ever seen the part where he is in Jail with these two big black african americans ? one does all the talking and the other guy just keeps saying ''YEAH'' lol reminds me of you Keano :pac::P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-NPzpVrmAw&feature=related

I actually have debated quite a bit on here, but you just kept calling me and any views I had "Protestant" so I took it as a sign that you just are not willing to listen.

ChocolateSauce

As a congregation I don't like them at all; they place an emphasis on isolation except when proselytising. They have this almost cultish quality about them, and they will actively exclude family members who have de-converted from their community (I have second hand experience of this). Also, unlike most other religious communities, they really require you to actively believe their doctrine and will eventually cast you out if you don't, so you can't just go along with it for the sake of social harmony without lying.

Give me Catholics or Muslims any day, but keep these people out of my home, thanks. The idea of abandoning one's family because they don't think the same way is horrible.

Stephentlig

chozometroid wrote: »

Well "soul" is just a living person/animal, so they are correct. As for the spirit, it is the breath of life that returns to God. So, they are not comparable to atheists. They are different, though. :pac:

The Church teaches that every living thing has a soul. This includes plants and animals. The soul is the animating principle so there cannot be life without a soul. The souls of all non-human living things are called material souls. These are not immortal. Human beings have spiritual souls, which are by nature immortal.

and seeing as only ( according to jehovahs ) 144,000 of us get into heaven, it makes one wonder...whats the point?:rolleyes:

krudler

PDN wrote: »

Longer than you.

Nice to see you can admit your bias towards certain posters on here then;)

PDN

krudler wrote: »

Nice to see you can admit your bias towards certain posters on here then;)

Each poster has their own track record, and each is judged according to his own works. No new creations or justification by faith when it comes to moderation - we're very Old Testament when it comes to dishing out punishment or consigning sinners to outer darkness. :eek:

chozometroid

Stephentlig wrote: »

The Church teaches that every living thing has a soul. This includes plants and animals. The soul is the animating principle so there cannot be life without a soul. The souls of all non-human living things are called material souls. These are not immortal. Human beings have spiritual souls, which are by nature immortal.

Can you explain where you get this from please?

Stephentlig

chozometroid wrote: »

Can you explain where you get this from please?

''Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'' ( KJV ) ( Peter1:1:9

even scripture teaches that the soul is immortal and is to be saved Chozo.

both the human soul and spirit although used interchangebly are the same thing and immortal.

homer911

Stephentlig wrote: »

The Church teaches that every living thing has a soul. This includes plants and animals.

Can you explain where you get this from please? Surely this is animism. Its my understanding that this is not part of Christian belief - that man is the only "animal" with a soul and therefore the only creature capable of a relationship with God and going to Heaven

MrPudding

Stephentlig wrote: »

I dont debate with them, I grow weary debating with folks who have already made their mind up.

Hmm, strange, my irony dectector seems to have blown up...

MrP

chozometroid

Stephentlig wrote: »

''Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'' ( KJV ) ( Peter1:1:9

even scripture teaches that the soul is immortal and is to be saved Chozo.

both the human soul and spirit although used interchangebly are the same thing and immortal.

The soul is just a living creature and not immortal, while the spirit returns to God when we die. They are not the same.

In the Old Testament the word for "soul" is nephesh.
In the Old Testament the word for "spirit" is either ruach or neshamah.
In the New Testament the word for "soul" is psuche.
In the New Testament the word for "spirit" is pneuma.

Here are some examples, though there are many more:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh, psuche)" (Gen. 2:7).
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh, psuche) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so" (Gen. 1:24).
"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life (both are nephesh, psuche)" (Ex. 21:23).
"The soul (nephesh, psuche) that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezek. 18:4).

"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life (psuche), what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life (psuche) more than meat, and the body than raiment" (Mat. 6:25).
"He that findeth his life (psuche) shall lose it: and he that loseth his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it" (Mat. 10:39).

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (neshamah, pnoe) of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7).
"All the while my breath (neshamah, pnoe) is in me, and the spirit (ruach, pneuma) of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3).
"If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit (ruach, pneuma) and his breath (neshamah); all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust" (Job 34:14, 15).

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit (pneuma): and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46).
"And after three days and an half the Spirit (pneuma) of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet" (Rev. 11:11).

So, you can see that "soul" just means a living creature. Spirit means the breath of life from God.

Stephentlig

''Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'' ( KJV ) ( Peter1:1:9

scripture cannot contradict itself chozo, so according to this passage of the New covenant, your eisigesis of Scripture is ( pun intended) dead wrong and the soul is immortal.

chozometroid

Stephentlig wrote: »

''Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'' ( KJV ) ( Peter1:1:9

scripture cannot contradict itself chozo, so according to this passage of the New covenant, your eisigesis of Scripture is ( pun intended) dead wrong and the soul is immortal.

Behaving quite JW again, are we?

"Salvation of your souls" in no way contradicts what I said, nor anything the Bible says. In this verse "soul" is in fact psuche meaning "spirit," which means that the spirit is saved as result of our faith.
EDIT: Soul in this verse does mean "soul" as in a living creature. The salvation of a soul does not imply that it is immortal by nature.

BTW, nice of you to ignore what the Bible says and what the Hebrew and Greek meanings actually are.

PDN

chozometroid wrote: »

Behaving quite JW again, are we?

"Salvation of your souls" in no way contradicts what I said, nor anything the Bible says. In this verse "soul" is in fact psuche meaning "spirit," which means that the spirit is saved as result of our faith.

BTW, nice of you to ignore what the Bible says and what the Hebrew and Greek meanings actually are.

No, psyche means 'soul' - so it is correct to translate it as the salvation of our souls.

Actually, the Scriptural teaching is that Jesus died to save our spirits, our souls and our bodies.

questionmark?

PDN wrote: »

What's the difference between a Jehovah's Witness and a Skoda?

You can close the door on a Jehovah's Witness! :pac:

:rolleyes:

chozometroid

PDN wrote: »

No, psyche means 'soul' - so it is correct to translate it as the salvation of our souls.

Actually, the Scriptural teaching is that Jesus died to save our spirits, our souls and our bodies.

It makes no difference as far as the claim that the soul is immortal.

Our bodies and souls perish.

chozometroid

I was mistaken, I admit. Psuche does mean soul, as I stated in my original post. But the verse still only states that our lives will be saved as a result of our faith, just as "you shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Dean820

My friend is a Jehovah's Witness, nice guy but mad religion. I've heard things that make me believe their very corrupt.

DCJR

One morning when hungover they called to my door.

Normally i would have told them to clear off. (I was actualy a member of the chucrch of scientology in the past)

However for my amusement/general interest i asked them a couple of questions and was pretty impressed with their answers.

I asked them about homosexuality, saying that i beileved in treating ppl based upon how they treated me, if someone was nice to me i'd be nice to them and had no care for anything they done outside of their behaviour towards me.

the response was like ''these are gods rules that we have to live by, its not up to us to judge others but they will be judged by god. its like if you have a little child, they need rules in place otherwise they will do sily things like run out in the middle of the road''.

then i asked about alcohol saying that i regulalrly go out drinking how would they feel about that. the woman said she loved to take a drink but that its drinking in excess they dont approve of. she said shed loved a guinness but that its not right for all the binge drinking etc etc.

then i asked about dinosaurs. she said dinosaurs may have existed.

cant remember what else i asked.

they thanked me and asked me was i goona convert, i said probably not but i enjoyed the conversation anyway and we shook hands.

they called back twice the following week asking to speak to me.

My brother went bananas and told them not to set foot on our property again or they'd be getting a steel-jacketed anti depressant into the back of the head!!!!

Stephentlig

When Stephen said ''receive my spirit'' when being stoned, the word for spirit used is pnyü'-mä πνέω (G4154) which means soul also. the only one twisting scripture here is Chozo. :pac:


1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth

chozometroid

Stephentlig wrote: »

When Stephen said ''receive my spirit'' when being stoned, the word for spirit used is pnyü'-mä πνέω (G4154) which means soul also. the only one twisting scripture here is Chozo. :pac:


1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth

You could start by telling me what scripture I'm twisting since all I did was post scripture which has the words for soul and spirit.
There is a difference between a living soul and the spirit, until proven otherwise. You would like to lump them together just as much as you would like to think we are immortal by nature.

Xluna

branie wrote: »

This morning was one of those rare occasions when they came to my door. It got me wondering if there was anyone here who had Jehovah's witnesses at their door, and how they were dealt with.

They can be persistant. Just be courteous,but firm.

Greaney

PDN wrote: »

It would be pretty rare for anyone to 'grow out of' an involvement with the JWs. They clung to their beliefs (very bravely) when many of them were sent to the deathcamps during the Nazi Holocaust - and also endured great persecution because of their refusal to serve in the military under Stalin et al.

My own experience (we have a few ex-JWs in our church) is that arguing about their beliefs rarely goes anywhere. By arguing against them you are, by definition, doing the work of Satan, so they won't listen to you.

However, for the Christian posters here, sharing your own testimony about your relationship with Jesus Christ is something else. All the JWs I've met lacked any real concept of having a personal relationship with God. Their religion was all about serving Jehovah and getting rewarded for being good servants. Therefore personal testimony is much more powerful than argument with them.

Gotta say, this is the best reply to the questions asked. I've often wondered how to deal with JW's and the like when I'm a commited, lousy apoligist, christian. I think I'll go for this tack if there ever is a next time;)

kumate_champ07

Stephentlig wrote: »

also Jehovah witnesses beleive that once the body dies the soul dies too. my goodness, you'd might as well be atheist

how so?

Greaney

'How so?'.

Christians believe the soul is eternal (well, and the body in another form but we won't go into that here) and Athiests believe it isn't. If one believes the soul is eternal then Christianity answers the questions, 'what next?' and 'why?'.

There's no need for these answers if one is athiest, therefore regarding morality and values one is usually humanist. One only needs a philosophy to guide rather than a god to save.

dvpower

Greaney wrote: »

Christians believe the soul is eternal (well, and the body in another form but we won't go into that here) and Athiests believe it isn't.

To be fair, I'd say Atheists don't believe that the soul exists at all.