Disability and mental illness

SLUSK

Should people who are mentally ill get disability benefits paid to them? In this case why? Just because you are depressed it does not physically stop you from working like say being paralyzed from the neck down.

and because it is also hard to give an objective diagnosis of mental illness unscrupulous people can fake mental illness in order to get disability benefits.

Freiheit

Depression does affect ability to function and certainly work....but it doesn't have to be for life,or even that's the key..there is fraud in every field...so yes anyone genuinely impaired should receive support.

That Molloy lad with Fas receiving all that money after his disgraceful presidency of that organisation is a bigger scandal than any welfare fraud.

JuliusCaesar

SLUSK wrote: »

Should people who are mentally ill get disability benefits paid to them? In this case why? Just because you are depressed it does not physically stop you from working like say being paralyzed from the neck down.

and because it is also hard to give an objective diagnosis of mental illness unscrupulous people can fake mental illness in order to get disability benefits.

Actually, it is very difficult to fake a mental disorder.

Secondly, people with mental disorders may NOT be able to work at all, or be only able for low-stress, low hours occupations.

Xluna

SLUSK wrote: »

Should people who are mentally ill get disability benefits paid to them? In this case why? Just because you are depressed it does not physically stop you from working like say being paralyzed from the neck down.

Your knowledge of psychology appears to be rather limited. There's a vast difference between having the blues and having a mood disorder. They're not called disorders for nothing.

Myksyk

It's also almost impossible to accurately and objectively measure something like severe and chronic back pain. Maybe we should stop benefit payments to everyone complaining of it ... or just agree that it doesn't exist at all!

sam34

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Actually, it is very difficult to fake a mental disorder

any bets on how long before slusk posts up one of his favourite studies about the participants who faked auditory hallucinations...:p

sambuka41

It would help eliminate fraud if the people assessing claims in social welfare were actually qualified to do so!!!! They are GP's and NOT qualified to tell if someone is genuinely suffering from a disorder or not.

Thats what needs to change NOT peoples basic entitlements.

hotspur

sambuka41 wrote: »

It would help eliminate fraud if the people assessing claims in social welfare were actually qualified to do so!!!! They are GP's and NOT qualified to tell if someone is genuinely suffering from a disorder or not.

Thats what needs to change NOT peoples basic entitlements.

You think that people in the social welfare office make the assessment about the mental health of the claimant? It requires a medical certificate.

sambuka41

hotspur wrote: »

You think that people in the social welfare office make the assessment about the mental health of the claimant? It requires a medical certificate.

oh yeah,i know that!!ha sorry didnt explain that first post well!! I know someone who was cut off and went in to social offices to appeal it and they seen a GP who decided whether they were Agoraphobic or not!! They wouldn't accept her letters from psychiatrist, told her that if she could do her house work she could work outside the home.:eek:

Valmont

Didn't the Rosenhan study show that it is possible to fake a mental illness? Are we conveniently ignoring that study or is it merely an anachronism to use it in a critique of modern psychiatry?

sambuka41 wrote:

It would help eliminate fraud if the people assessing claims in social welfare were actually qualified to do so!!!! They are GP's and NOT qualified to tell if someone is genuinely suffering from a disorder or not.

Thats what needs to change NOT peoples basic entitlements.

Well with the ridiculously generous entitlements that people receive in this country I'm not sure I agree with you on that point. Not to mention the exorbitant costs of implementing such a procedure.

A major issue with this is that of moral hazard.

Valmont

Freiheit wrote: »

That Molloy lad with Fas receiving all that money after his disgraceful presidency of that organisation is a bigger scandal than any welfare fraud.

That is completely irrelevant. You can't legitimise one type of fraud because another bigger one has escaped unpunished.

"Hello Gardai? Someone stole 5000 euro from my house!"

"Sorry, we are only dealing with robberies of over 50,000 euro at the moment."

SLUSK

We can all agree that it is possible to fake mental illness.

p.pete

SLUSK wrote: »

We can all agree that it is possible to fake mental illness.

Free will?

Xluna

Valmont wrote: »

Well with the ridiculously generous entitlements that people receive in this country I'm not sure I agree with you on that point. Not to mention the exorbitant costs of implementing such a procedure.

A major issue with this is that of moral hazard.

It does'nt need to be implemented.The word of the individuals psychiatrist should suffice. How a regular G.P.,employed by the state and far less,if at all, qualified to diagnose mental illness can even have the authority to over rule a diagnosis by a fully qualified and independent psychiatrist beggars belief. The independent psychiatrist has nothing to gain from not being objective,the state employed G.P.-I'm sceptical.

JuliusCaesar

SLUSK wrote: »

We can all agree that it is possible to fake mental illness.

We can? Two people have just disagreed with you. Do you even read the replies? What's the point of posting if you don't read anyone else's contribution?

Valmont - I think there's a big difference between the 'big bin' approach of old, and modern assessment and treatment procedures....things have moved on since the 50s/early 60s. I doubt if Rosenhan would be admitted today...(might be an interesting study, if anyone wants to try to replicate it)

Valmont

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Valmont - I think there's a big difference between the 'big bin' approach of old, and modern assessment and treatment procedures....things have moved on since the 50s/early 60s. I doubt if Rosenhan would be admitted today...(might be an interesting study, if anyone wants to try to replicate it)

While I will acknowledge that it wasn't a proper experiment, Lauren Slater tried it and was prescribed anti psychotic and anti depressant medication.

Valmont

Xluna wrote: »

It does'nt need to be implemented.The word of the individuals psychiatrist should suffice. How a regular G.P.,employed by the state and far less,if at all, qualified to diagnose mental illness can even have the authority to over rule a diagnosis by a fully qualified and independent psychiatrist beggars belief. The independent psychiatrist has nothing to gain from not being objective,the state employed G.P.-I'm sceptical.

Who is going to pay for all of these extra psychiatrists?

sambuka41

Valmont wrote: »

Who is going to pay for all of these extra psychiatrists?

The fact is that GP's are not qualified to do the job they are doing and it is effecting peoples lives. So maybe im idealistic but money would have to be sourced OR they could accept the letters and recommendations of people who are qualified.

Either way you can be guaranteed that people would be up in arms if dentists were diagnosing broken legs or back pain!! To me it appears as ridiculous to have a GP decide if someone is Agoraphobic or not.

On the note of faking a mental disorder,surely it would be easier to pull the wool over the eyes of a lay man/GP than it would a trained professional, so the suggestion to have psychologists/ psychiatrists working in the claims appeals might help eliminate a certain amount of fraud.

sam34

GPs are trained professionals.

a lot of mental illness can be managed at GP level, and should be managed at that level.

Valmont

sam34 wrote: »

a lot of mental illness can be managed at GP level, and should be managed at that level.

Where is the line drawn? At what point is a mental illness beyond the scope of a GP? Is it to do with the type or severity of the illness?

If you have any resources for this I would like to read them.

sam34

Valmont wrote: »

Where is the line drawn? At what point is a mental illness beyond the scope of a GP? Is it to do with the type or severity of the illness?

If you have any resources for this I would like to read them.

generally speaking, people with serious mental illness are managed by psychiatry. by that, i mean bipolar, schizophrenia, other psychotic disorders (thats not an exhaustive list, btw)

there is no reason why someone with a mild depression cannot be managed by a gp. similarly, those with mild anxiety disorders.

just like gp's dont refer everyone with hypertension to a cardiologist, neither do they need to refer everyone with depression to a psychiatrist.

irishh_bob

when it comes to the area of mental illness in this country , wooly liberal do -gooders rule the roost , it is almost impossible to be detained against your will in this country unless you literally kill someone , indeed thier have been many many murders this past number of years resulting from this crazy liberal policy , thier was a time when people were locked up for merley being an embarrassment to thier familys but the pendelum has completley swung the other way this past number of years , the rights of the person who is not the full schilling supercede any other considerations and this policy has resulted in terrible suffering for families with unwell brothers , sisters , sons and daughters , i have a cousin who is a deranged religous fanatic , his family have tried repeatedly to have him committed but the ruling psychiatricst in the local hospital has repeatedley vetoed any attempts by the familys GP to have him sectioned , they have been assaulted , threatended , humiliated in front of their neighbours and thier life has been nothing short of a living hell for more than fifteen years , several doctors have told them that it is almost impossible to have someone detained against thier will and that this policy is not likely to change in the near future , the smug holier than thou liberal do - gooders ( who own legislation on this matter and whoom i detest with every fibre of my being ) know not the damage they do

SLUSK

irishh_bob wrote: »

when it comes to the area of mental illness in this country , wooly liberal do -gooders rule the roost , it is almost impossible to be detained against your will in this country unless you literally kill someone , indeed thier have been many many murders this past number of years resulting from this crazy liberal policy , thier was a time when people were locked up for merley being an embarrassment to thier familys but the pendelum has completley swung the other way this past number of years , the rights of the person who is not the full schilling supercede any other considerations and this policy has resulted in terrible suffering for families with unwell brothers , sisters , sons and daughters , i have a cousin who is a deranged religous fanatic , his family have tried repeatedly to have him committed but the ruling psychiatricst in the local hospital has repeatedley vetoed any attempts by the familys GP to have him sectioned , they have been assaulted , threatended , humiliated in front of their neighbours and thier life has been nothing short of a living hell for more than fifteen years , several doctors have told them that it is almost impossible to have someone detained against thier will and that this policy is not likely to change in the near future , the smug holier than thou liberal do - gooders ( who own legislation on this matter and whoom i detest with every fibre of my being ) know not the damage they do

Don't they throw people in jail for assault in Ireland?

Olduvai

sambuka41 wrote: »

oh yeah,i know that!!ha sorry didnt explain that first post well!! I know someone who was cut off and went in to social offices to appeal it and they seen a GP who decided whether they were Agoraphobic or not!! They wouldn't accept her letters from psychiatrist, told her that if she could do her house work she could work outside the home.:eek:

Do doctors not defer to colleagues who are more competent in the case management of the patient as the general rule of thumb... or has this now changed:eek:.

The departments medical assessors are doctors last worked in General Practice...in some cases many a decade ago. They are not experts and many are asked to review cases that they are not qualified to offer opinions on. It's like a plastic surgeon reviewing neurology caseloads.

Coincidently, has anybody ever read one of the departments medical assessment files that these doctors have completed? its pretty standard, a one size fits all job. Some of what I read beggars belief!

Getting back to the original question, if a person is suffering from a mental illness the social security system is there to provide them with income support.

What I do find and whether it is in the jobs market or in claiming illness related schemes is that persons with mental illness still face stigma, labelling and discrimination. If a person develops a mental illness or other chronic condition that results in joblessness there is no early intervention for re-activation whether that is from the DSFA or FAS. Integration of services and vocational rehabilitation is not something that features in Ireland's welfare to work practices.

irishh_bob

SLUSK wrote: »

Don't they throw people in jail for assault in Ireland?

im talkiing about detaining people outside the criminal jurisdiction , i mean under the mental health act

Xluna

Valmont wrote: »

Who is going to pay for all of these extra psychiatrists?

Tax the church, stop funding religious schools,get rid of the seanad, fully tax people who get relief for artistic merit,stop wasting tax money on converting E.U. legislation into Irish,which no one probably reads. I could go on...

Valmont

Xluna wrote: »

Tax the church, stop funding religious schools,get rid of the seanad, fully tax people who get relief for artistic merit,stop wasting tax money on converting E.U. legislation into Irish,which no one probably reads. I could go on...

Of course, let me just call Brian Lenihan, sure he'll have it all arranged by Tuesday morning.

Xluna

Valmont wrote: »

Of course, let me just call Brian Lenihan, sure he'll have it all arranged by Tuesday morning.

firesidechat

irishh_bob wrote: »

when it comes to the area of mental illness in this country , wooly liberal do -gooders rule the roost , it is almost impossible to be detained against your will in this country unless you literally kill someone , indeed thier have been many many murders this past number of years resulting from this crazy liberal policy , thier was a time when people were locked up for merley being an embarrassment to thier familys but the pendelum has completley swung the other way this past number of years , the rights of the person who is not the full schilling supercede any other considerations and this policy has resulted in terrible suffering for families with unwell brothers , sisters , sons and daughters , i have a cousin who is a deranged religous fanatic , his family have tried repeatedly to have him committed but the ruling psychiatricst in the local hospital has repeatedley vetoed any attempts by the familys GP to have him sectioned , they have been assaulted , threatended , humiliated in front of their neighbours and thier life has been nothing short of a living hell for more than fifteen years , several doctors have told them that it is almost impossible to have someone detained against thier will and that this policy is not likely to change in the near future , the smug holier than thou liberal do - gooders ( who own legislation on this matter and whoom i detest with every fibre of my being ) know not the damage they do

Maybe this person does not have a mental disorder as required under the mental Health act 2001.
This act was implemented to protect the rights of service users and rightly so. The previous system was been abused by people with a distorted agenda.

pppink

Xluna wrote: »

stop wasting tax money on converting E.U. legislation into Irish,which no one probably reads.

haha how true is this!!lol

MOD: Why revive a two year old thread? Locking it.