Marines Training, why all the shouting?

silverharp

Is it "scientifically" necessary. I understand all the physical training to breaking point etc. but would a military trained using how shall we say more normal methods be less effective?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGG5KqsWp1Y

Remmy

It's just the way they do things.It's not ''scientifically necessary'' but it works for them.

piby

I would imagine it's to breed aggression/get the bloke pumped so to speak and also how to discipline that aggression.

troubleshooter

Silverharp2 wrote: »

Is it "scientifically" necessary. I understand all the physical training to breaking point etc. but would a military trained using how shall we say more normal methods be less effective?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGG5KqsWp1Y

Its a cultural thing, Americians like to do things in a big way, be it massive buckets of popcorn at the movies, cheerleaders at football games, big cars, and very loud NCOs. If you want OTT check out the US Marines drill display team.

The Royal Netherlands and UK Marines, French Foreign Legion take the opposite approach you are only told once, not so much shouting your expected to know something after being told it once, it teaches inititive. Compare this film on the Legion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xoPX-MB0xo&feature=related

samhail

As a solider you have to be able to react as trained under the most extreme situations. The job a solider is being trained for will have them in situations where everyone is screaming from every direction and there are bullets flying everywhere... and their lifes and the person beside thems life is on the line unless they react correctly.

in my opinion and experience.

Local-womanizer

Its not all physical in the military.

Any material you seem to read on the Marines it seems the shouting is there to A) Get the men used to doing things under pressure and To see who is able to cope with the pressure.

They have being doing it for years so I presume it works,each to their own I suppose!

Manic Moran

It all just adds to the stress. The normal course of instruction (This is how you march, this is how you shoot, this is how you call for fire) is all nice and calm and quiet. They want recruits focused on the details, after all, not scared about whether they're going to get yelled at and made to do pushups. It just doesn't play that well on the TV shows, so you don't get to see much of it.

However, in circumstances which are not 'classroom' they try to deliberately add chaos and stress to see how the recruits cope.

NTM

Doctor14

Silverharp2 wrote: »

Is it "scientifically" necessary. I understand all the physical training to breaking point etc. but would a military trained using how shall we say more normal methods be less effective?

The Irish Army recently got a bit of a drumming for using more "Normal" methods of training. The Independent Monitoring Group reported that Robust Training produces Robust Soldiers. Whatever existed of the original culture of harassment was well and truly gone but the Army had now swung too far the opposite way.

http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/publications/IndependentMonitoringGroupReport2008.pdf

Manic Moran

Interesting document.

The concept of a ‘soft landing’ for all inductees into the PDF from 2004 was a genuine attempt to realise the Dignity Charter, to be sensitive to the sea-change from life as a civilian to that of a military person where even the requirement to wear boots, not sneakers or runners was indicative of two very differing worlds. The intention was to provide a ‘soft landing’ for the individual and reduce the degree of culture shock experienced

<snip>

The IMG in 2008 is concerned that the pendulum may have swung too far in one direction in the last four years. The result may be that essential robust nature of military training is in danger of being lost

Since 2004 the first two weeks of training, known as the “soft landing”, have become a transition phase from civilian to military life. Perhaps inevitably, the outcome has sometimes been counterproductive. The IMG is in agreement with the reservations of trainees and instructors about this approach.

I like the bit about air corps cadets not graduating for nine months due to a lack of training aircraft.

The job a solider is being trained for will have them in situations where everyone is screaming from every direction and there are bullets flying everywhere

What he said. There's rather a lot of shouting that tends to go on in a battle, might as well get used to it from the get-go. After all, combat isn't exactly 'normal and civilised' so why should the training be? Train as you fight and fight as you train.

NTM

seanybiker

Thats one thing that would really annoy me if I ever joined the army, some tool shouting at me when he doesnt need to. Do they get attacked by pissed off soldiers much at all?

Manic Moran

seanybiker wrote: »

Thats one thing that would really annoy me if I ever joined the army, some tool shouting at me when he doesnt need to. Do they get attacked by pissed off soldiers much at all?

Not often. You'll get shouted at even more if you do.

And then removed from the service. Which is a bit of a punishment in a volunteer military. Face it, you don't join up and not expect to get shouted at, so just play the game.

NTM

BuckJamesRogers

nice

jenny jinks

seanybiker wrote: »

Thats one thing that would really annoy me if I ever joined the army, some tool shouting at me when he doesnt need to. Do they get attacked by pissed off soldiers much at all?

My brother is in the army. He showed me an article in a magazine which stated that asault on a superior officer was the most common offence in the 19th century.

celts

Haha .The Americans kick the b---s out it a bit .They have to be able to think under stress for going into combat where rounds will be flying over there heads
This is hillarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Nf1MK7lts

Remmy

The thing trotted out with marines being 'Riflemen' first is their much weight to this?Do they out shoot the Army in Comps?

LookBehindYou

seanybiker wrote: »

Thats one thing that would really annoy me if I ever joined the army, some tool shouting at me when he doesnt need to. Do they get attacked by pissed off soldiers much at all?

Seany, you are not army material
it would cramp your lifestyle.

You are more suited to joining the long haired friends of jesus.:)

troubleshooter

Doctor14 wrote: »

The Irish Army recently got a bit of a drumming for using more "Normal" methods of training. The Independent Monitoring Group reported that Robust Training produces Robust Soldiers. Whatever existed of the original culture of harassment was well and truly gone but the Army had now swung too far the opposite way.

http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/publications/IndependentMonitoringGroupReport2008.pdf

True to a point, but its your background that sees you through. No coincidence people into phyisical fitness before joining from tougher backgrounds do better in basic training.

Being from this part of the world its hard to take US marine drill instructors seriously, it all seems a bit fake/contrived.

Think the Legion would be alot scarier a place to screw up, saw a video where they got two recruits to dig two big holes, buried them up to their necks in sand and used there heads as goalsposts for a soccer game !!

Much better tell recruits once like the Legion,Royal marines., Paras do, if they get it wrong beast them, ie physically punish them through exercise till exhaustion.

silverharp

troubleshooter wrote: »

True to a point, but its your background that sees you through. No coincidence people into phyisical fitness before joining from tougher backgrounds do better in basic training.

Being from this part of the world hard to take US marine drill instrctors seriously, it all seems a bit fake/contrived.

Think the Legion would be alot scarier a place to screw up, saw a video where they got two recruits to dig two big holes, buried them up to their necks in sand and used there heads as goalsposts for a soccer game !!

Much better tell recruits once like the Legion,Royal marines., Paras do, if they get it wrong beast them, ie physical punish them through exercise.

Makes sense to me. At the same time while I think the training should be "punishing", is excessive punishment not a bit 19thC Royal Navy? The way I look at it someone either has the qualities you want or not, the training builds on it. The airline pilot that acts cool and saves his plane or the fireman that goes into a burning building is faced with the same life and death flee/fight decision?

Manic Moran

Remmy wrote: »

The thing trotted out with marines being 'Riflemen' first is their much weight to this?Do they out shoot the Army in Comps?

Not really. The Army Marksmanship Unit has some pretty good shots in it. There are no inter-unit competitions as you may be used to in Ireland. I think it's a good thing. It stops the focus of the training year being on competitions, and allows focus on more important unit-level training.

It's more an ethos thing. It may well be that as a result, Marine logisticians take better care of their rifle than an Army logistician, for example. Doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be better shots, however.

True to a point, but its your background that sees you through. No coincidence people into phyisical fitness before joining from tougher backgrounds do better in basic training.

As a bit of an urban dilettante who has to be ordered to do PT, I take some exception to that statement. The will to succeed is far more important than how much you were able to bench press before you signed on. Actually achieving the requisite fifty pushups or whatever is less important than the effort and determination put into trying to get to the goal. A Drill Sergeant who sees that the recruit is trying his damndest to get to fifty isn't going to make his life even more hell for not actually getting to that level.
Getting up at 5am may be a bit of a culture shock for someone who never worked on a farm, but that you get used to fairly quickly.

Being from this part of the world its hard to take US marine drill instructors seriously, it all seems a bit fake/contrived.

It is, but there's a lot to be said for just plain life experience at that point. I was 25 when I went through US Basic, and you could see the mind games for what they were. For the average 18-year-old spending his first week away from friends and family (Be he from the Bronx or Beverly Hills), the 'games' are genuinely quite stressing.

At the same time while I think the training should be "punishing", is excessive punishment not a bit 19thC Royal Navy?

You've got to have a stick of some sort. On-the-sport corrective actions can be quite an efficient way of providing it.

NTM

troubleshooter

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not really. The Army Marksmanship Unit has some pretty good shots in it. There are no inter-unit competitions as you may be used to in Ireland. I think it's a good thing. It stops the focus of the training year being on competitions, and allows focus on more important unit-level training.

It's more an ethos thing. It may well be that as a result, Marine logisticians take better care of their rifle than an Army logistician, for example. Doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be better shots, however.



As a bit of an urban dilettante who has to be ordered to do PT, I take some exception to that statement. The will to succeed is far more important than how much you were able to bench press before you signed on. Actually achieving the requisite fifty pushups or whatever is less important than the effort and determination put into trying to get to the goal. A Drill Sergeant who sees that the recruit is trying his damndest to get to fifty isn't going to make his life even more hell for not actually getting to that level.
Getting up at 5am may be a bit of a culture shock for someone who never worked on a farm, but that you get used to fairly quickly.



It is, but there's a lot to be said for just plain life experience at that point. I was 25 when I went through US Basic, and you could see the mind games for what they were. For the average 18-year-old spending his first week away from friends and family (Be he from the Bronx or Beverly Hills), the 'games' are genuinely quite stressing.



You've got to have a stick of some sort. On-the-sport corrective actions can be quite an efficient way of providing it.

NTM

But stats do show regarding the BA, those from mining/pit villages and such places and have higher pass out rates in basic training then those from more wealthy cosmopolitan areas, theres an injoke that the further south you go the softer potential recruits are till you end up in Brighton, Britains cosmopolitan and affluent gay capital.

Stats also show the fitter you are going in, the less likely you are to get injured during training.

iceage

troubleshooter wrote: »

But stats do show regarding the BA, those from mining/pit villages and such places and have higher pass out rates in basic training then those from more wealthy cosmopolitan areas, theres an injoke that the further south you go the softer potential recruits are till you end up in Brighton, Britains cosmopolitan and affluent gay capital.

Stats also show the fitter you are going in, the less likely you are to get injured during training.

Unless your from Peckham is SE London.

Manic Moran

troubleshooter wrote: »

But stats do show regarding the BA, those from mining/pit villages and such places and have higher pass out rates in basic training then those from more wealthy cosmopolitan areas,

In fairness, there may be other reasons for that, such as job opportunity. It might be that a person of a certain brightness and intelligence level has more opportunity in the wealthy, cosmopolitan areas or that there is a perception in such areas that the Army isn't a 'proper' job for someone, so the candidates who -do- show up in the Recruit Depot tend not to be from the sharp end of the drawer, as opposed to an old mining town (esp when the mine's closed down and there are few jobs), or in an area with a strong military tradition which results in a higher average calibre of recruit overall.

Stats also show the fitter you are going in, the less likely you are to get injured during training.

That's fair enough, but has little to do with all the shouting.

NTM

Tarzan007

LookBehindYou wrote: »

Seany, you are not army material
it would cramp your lifestyle.

You are more suited to joining the long haired friends of jesus.:)

This would be more like the army Seany Biker would join