Engineering Questions For University PLEASE ANSWER?

kieran--f

I have heard the engineering courses are better in the uk and i would enjoy a move to scotland so...

My main interest is motorsport
My ucas choices are
Brunel motorsport engineering
UWS motorsport engineering
Uni Edinburgh Mechanical engineering with management
Derby Motorsport engineering
Heriot Watt Edinburagh Mechanical engineering

Brunel seems best but i doubt i could afford to live in london
Im 18 and dont know anything about UWS or what its like
My favourite would be Uni of Edinburgh
Whats mechanical engineering with management like and how different is it from mechanical and if I did this degree could I then do a masters in motorsport at Brunel for 1 to 2 years without killing myself with work after for a better chance in motorsport
thanks

BehindTheScenes

A friend of mine studied at uni of Hertfordshire. From what he said it's an excellent course and has good industry links. He works at Noble at the moment but before that was involved with BTCC.

Think Brunel would have the best reputation from what I know of those universities.

matsil

I mean the following with the greatest of rspect and sincerity to all.

First, to give you an idea of where I am coming from. I am 32 years old, I have a level 8 degree in mechanical engineering, and I am a chartered engineer. I work as a senior engineer, and I have quite a good grasp of the industry in general.

Ok - first.... why are you under the impression that engineering in the uk is "better"? I will not give you my opinion here, I will just give you a simple fact. Here in Ireland we have an ordianry degree (3 year) and an honours degree (4 year). If you want to become a chartered engineer, in Ireland you need a level 8 (honours) degree. BUT in the uk, if you want to become chartered, you need a Masters degree. However, the engineering council UK recognises our level 8 honours degree as meeting the acedemic requirements for chartered status ..... in other words, our honours degree is the acedmic equivalent of a UK Masters. This is recognised in the US and Europe also. If you just fancy going to the UK to study, for the sake of getting away, that is one thing...... but a "better" degree is just a myth.

Secondly - I say this to any young person who has engineering dreams. It is good to dream, but you need to tmeper those dreams with reality. While you dream of working in motor sport, you need to realise that competition for those jobs is extremely high - and while you should definitely try, you should also think of a "plan B", because in a couple of years time when your buddies are working and driving nice cars, living in nice houses, and going on nice holidays, you'll want a decent wage to enjoy life with, and idealism goes out the window.

Third - and closely realted to the first point, there are lots of mickey mouse degrees with fancy names out there, and all sorts of clever marketing to make you think its wonderful. When the all that is said and done though, all engieering comes down to the fundamental understanding of maths and physics, and the applying a structured approach to solving problems. It sounds to me like you are not going towards the "civil engineering" side of things, but more toward the mechanical side of things. Really, there are not that many true engieering disciplines - mechanical engieering is probably the most versatile of them. A mechanical engieering degree is mainly based on mathematical methods, materials science, thermo dynamics, and fluid mechanics - in the real world that means you can look at a problem and solve it based on science, from first principles - you have the knowledge to form your own opinions and think outside the box to solve unique and challenging problems...... if you are going to design a car componet you will have the tools you need to analyse the aerodynamic forces, the energy requirements, the materials of how to contruct, and so on........ What I am getting at here is that if I were you, I would do a solid engineering course - Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Structural Engieering...... and let the rest go.

Back to me ...... for my fianl year of college I did a project called pneumatic ocnveying which is an industrial related discipline. Then I worked for Prpject Management on a large chemical plant.... then I worked for ARUP on a large hospital.... after that I spent a few years designing heating and air conditioning systems for seeral buildings including hotels, nursing homes, nightclubs, apartments etc. Then I worked for a Renewable Energy company, and now I am an energy consultant..... that is a wide and diverse career path and I have been able to do that because Mechanical Engineering is a solid discipline, ground in maths and physics, not in some market hype like the current green wash for all things renewable. I would strongly recommend that you do the same. If in doubt, I would contact the main colelges in Ireland that do mechanical engineering - namely UL, CIT, DIT, an ask them for some advice on what to do - try and arrange to go and meet them.

kieran--f

thanks a million for your reply
i have put UL on my cao but really would I still have a chance to make it in motorsport with a degree there? do they have formula student or anything like that there? i enjoy problem solving and all that im good at maths but i love engines and would love to work with them

matsil

kieran--f wrote: »

thanks a million for your reply
i have put UL on my cao but really would I still have a chance to make it in motorsport with a degree there? do they have formula student or anything like that there? i enjoy problem solving and all that im good at maths but i love engines and would love to work with them

Honestly - a mech eng course is all about engines. Do you know anything about engine design? Would you know where to start? I don't mean take an engine apart, basically copy it, and make a new one - I mean actually design it? Would you know how to design a cam shaft for infinite life? do you understand anything about metallurgy? Do you know why you would choose a certain type of octane fuel over another? Can you desribe in detail the difference between 2 stroke and 4 stroke, petrol and deisal engines? DO you know anything about cam design, cam balancing, flywheels, gearing, etc. DO you have a fundamental understanding of physics, including laws of motion, and numerical methods for emplying with respect to trnasport?...... if you do, then you are at about the level of a decent mechanic ....... but mechanical engineering goes well above and beyond the practicalities and into the world of theory, which is where innovation is and where real engieering is...... you need an understanding of thermo dynamics and materials / mecahnics to even begin to start getting into engine design.

I don't know exactly what the courses you describe in UK are all about. They might be excellent - don't take my word for it...... but be objective when evaluating, and remember there is more to the autmomotive industry than oil and engines ....... once you get past junior engineer stage, you will be required to "manage" - and when that time comes you will need to be able to sit down and have a construtive discussion component manufacturers, outside consultants, etc. You will need to consider things like the cost of manufacturing.... the energy your plant uses..... the effects of the atmosphere on manufacturing process..... you will ned to consider production line management..... I am just waffling here, but a good mech eng degree prepares you for pretty much anything that any manufacturing plant or process anywhere will through at you.....

kieran--f

I have a self thought understanding from hotrods and karts i wored in a garage too
Heres what the course in the uk for motorsport engineering consists of
would it be much different to mechanical here in ireland thanks again

Typical Modules
Level 1

• Fundamentals of Solid Body Mechanics
• Fundamentals of Thermofluids
• Analytical Methods and Skills
• Design, Materials and Manufacturing
• Communication, Management and Practical Skills
• General Principles of Motorsport Engineering

Level 2

• Solid Body Mechanics
• Thermofluids
• Modelling, Control and Automotive Electronics
• Computer Aided Design and Manufacture
• Project Management and Racing Vehicle Materials and Manufacturing
• Mechanisms, Simulations and Computer Graphics

You have the option to undertake a year working in the motorsport industry between Levels 2 and 3. This industrial placement forms the basis of many students' Major Project, and may lead to future employment. It also looks good on your CV, and increases your network of contacts!
Level 3: BEng

• Major Project
• Analysis of Vehicle Structures
• Racing Vehicle Design, Performance and Legislation
• Numerical Modelling, Racing Legislation, Finance and Sponsorship
• Aerodynamics and Internal Combustion Engines

Level 4: MEng

• Major Group Project
• Racing Team Management and Vehicle Testing
• Advanced Vehicle Dynamics, IC Engines and Materials
• Advanced CAD and Numerical Modelling
• Advanced Thermofluids
• Advanced Solid Body Mechanics

anothernight

matsil wrote: »

If you want to become a chartered engineer, in Ireland you need a level 8 (honours) degree. BUT in the uk, if you want to become chartered, you need a Masters degree. However, the engineering council UK recognises our level 8 honours degree as meeting the acedemic requirements for chartered status ..... in other words, our honours degree is the acedmic equivalent of a UK Masters.

From 2013 onwards, a level 9 Masters degree will be required to become a chartered engineer in Ireland, to bring it in line with common European practice.

matsil

matsil wrote: »

Honestly - a mech eng course is all about engines. Do you know anything about engine design? Would you know where to start? I don't mean take an engine apart, basically copy it, and make a new one - I mean actually design it? Would you know how to design a cam shaft for infinite life? do you understand anything about metallurgy? Do you know why you would choose a certain type of octane fuel over another? Can you desribe in detail the difference between 2 stroke and 4 stroke, petrol and deisal engines? DO you know anything about cam design, cam balancing, flywheels, gearing, etc. DO you have a fundamental understanding of physics, including laws of motion, and numerical methods for emplying with respect to trnasport?...... if you do, then you are at about the level of a decent mechanic ....... but mechanical engineering goes well above and beyond the practicalities and into the world of theory, which is where innovation is and where real engieering is...... you need an understanding of thermo dynamics and materials / mecahnics to even begin to start getting into engine design.

.

The average mech eng graduate wouldn't even know how to change the oil in their car. The last place I worked most of the engineers were mech eng graduates, none of the above they would have had a clue about.

enda1

OP. May advice from being in a very related industry...

Do a mechanical engineering course in Ireland/Scotland (free fees) and then do a masters in Cranfield.

Most engine design is done at the OEM side (Mercedes, Honda, etc.) not the motor-sport team side by the way.

matsil

RoverJames wrote: »

The average mech eng graduate wouldn't even know how to change the oil in their car. The last place I worked most of the engineers were mech eng graduates, none of the above they would have had a clue about.

That is down to the individual student, and where they studied. The number 1 skill that most graduates of any subject lack is the ability to apply themselves and the ability to think outside the box. Mech eng graduates (I was once 1) do not have the faintest idea of how to apply what they have learned. We have recently had a mech eng graduate join us, and I think he has surprised himself how much he knows about industrial processes, without ever having directly studied the subject matter.

Besides "changing oil" is a mechanics job, not an engineers. That does not imply seniority, just diffrentiation between roles. But I know plenty of builders, electricians, office workers, etc. who are well capable of changing the oil ..... but they certainly don't know the first thing about thermo dynamics or material mechanics...... and they certainly aren't engineers.

You say the last place you worked ...... where did you work? I mean if you were working in ARUP's or some place like that, then engines is the last thing that the company would be interested in, and would have recruited graduates with other interests and specialities.......

To be fair, I think you need to be a mech. eng. graduate to make an informed and correct comment on this subject.

matsil

kieran--f wrote: »

I have a self thought understanding from hotrods and karts i wored in a garage too
Heres what the course in the uk for motorsport engineering consists of
would it be much different to mechanical here in ireland thanks again

Typical Modules

Level 1

• Fundamentals of Solid Body Mechanics
• Fundamentals of Thermofluids
• Analytical Methods and Skills
• Design, Materials and Manufacturing
• Communication, Management and Practical Skills
• General Principles of Motorsport Engineering

Level 2

• Solid Body Mechanics
• Thermofluids
• Modelling, Control and Automotive Electronics
• Computer Aided Design and Manufacture
• Project Management and Racing Vehicle Materials and Manufacturing
• Mechanisms, Simulations and Computer Graphics

You have the option to undertake a year working in the motorsport industry between Levels 2 and 3. This industrial placement forms the basis of many students' Major Project, and may lead to future employment. It also looks good on your CV, and increases your network of contacts!

Level 3: BEng

• Major Project
• Analysis of Vehicle Structures
• Racing Vehicle Design, Performance and Legislation
• Numerical Modelling, Racing Legislation, Finance and Sponsorship
• Aerodynamics and Internal Combustion Engines

Level 4: MEng

• Major Group Project
• Racing Team Management and Vehicle Testing
• Advanced Vehicle Dynamics, IC Engines and Materials
• Advanced CAD and Numerical Modelling
• Advanced Thermofluids
• Advanced Solid Body Mechanics

This is just a passing opinion, so certainly DO NOT make ny choices basedI what I alone say!

As I alluded to in my previous post, I think this course will have alot of "fluff" in it and you career oportunities will very limited upon graduation. I would urge to "hope for the best and plan for the worst" - that degree is not going to be much use to in any field other than the auto-motive industry.

I personally think you would be better sticking to a good solid primary degree - then get yourself onto a post-grad speciality to get an M.Eng. You will have far more oportunities that way.

matsil

matsil wrote: »

You say the last place you worked ...... where did you work? .

I worked in a sophisticated machine shop for want of a better description, highly regulated though, they made orthopaedic products. The parts were cast, machined and finished on site. Having previously worked with electrical, chemical & process engineering graduates in the pharmaceutical industry I was amazed at the lack of practical knowledge or apptitude the mech eng lads had. On the one hand you say mech eng is all about engines but then you say changing oil is a mechanics job, I used the changing oil as a flippant enough comment (commenting that none of the above they would have had a clue about), I would have expected a person who pursued mech eng in 3rd level to be very mechanically minded. As a teenager they should be having a look at their bicycle's gears and derailers. Anyone who claims to be a mechanical engineer but who can't do a basic service on a car as they claim it's a mechanics job doesn't really display a passion for their chosen career. I do agree with the comment you make "Mech eng graduates (I was once 1) do not have the faintest idea of how to apply what they have learned." I was handed over a project by a young mech engineer, it was to commission an ultrasonic cleaning bath, simple device with a timer and some valves connected to utilities, the lad had no clue at all, a handover from the canteen staff would have been better.

No doubt you don't value my opinion as it can't be informed and correct due to me not studying mech eng, despite industy experience spanning pharma, bio pharma, water treatment (good old fashioned steam boilers and cooling towers along with extrusian processes), orthopaedic & med device in various roles from a process tech to line support engineer, validation engineer, equipment engineer and quality

Now I must say some of the young lads down there were tremendous engineers, however the same lads were into DIY, cars, mountain bikes etc and had a "how does that work attitude".

matsil

RoverJames wrote: »

On the one hand you say mech eng is all about engines but then you say changing oil is a mechanics job, I used the changing oil as a flippant enough comment (commenting that none of the above they would have had a clue about), I would have expected a person who pursued mech eng in 3rd level to be very mechanically minded.......Anyone who claims to be a mechanical engineer but who can't do a basic service on a car as they claim it's a mechanics job doesn't really display a passion for their chosen career.

Should an architect be able to lay blocks and pour concrete?

Should a structural engineer be able to weld and bend steel?

Conversely;

Should a mason be able to use Autocad?

Should a welder or steel fixer be able to perform structural load calculations

....... and on that note, should a mechanical engineer be able to strip down an engine? .... by the same token, should he be a competent welder, and fitter, and plumber, and fabricator?

No doubt you don't value my opinion as it can't be informed and correct due to me not studying mech eng, despite industy experience spanning pharma, bio pharma, water treatment ......

On the contrary, I do value your opinion. What I meant was that unless you have done a 4 year degree in mech eng then you cannot appeciate the subject matter .....

There is quite often an attitude and opinion, particulary from a trades perspective, that engieers know nothing because they cannot do the physical things...... I can recount countless situations where an arrogant trades person made the call that an engimeers instruction was nonesense and later discovered why ..... an over loaded boiler fracturing..... an undersized one not meeting load..... qualpex pipe pulling joints because they were not suitable for purpose..... Simply put an engineer has no business messing around in an engine, no more than a mechanic has any business designing an engine.... they each spent 4 years training, and are equally qualified in their own field.

Doc_Savage

i'm in final year of mechanical in dit...

i was once tempted by some of the name specific courses you've mentioned!

until you truely understand engines and mechanics you won't know if you're cut out to do "motorsport" their courses may sound good but a general engineering degree will cover you for all that and much more so that if you get into the engineering and discover you want to take a different path then that option will be there... (thermo dynamics plays a huge part in engine design and it's so abstract you'll probably hate it!)

in essence... don't pigeon hole yourself! you'll regret it later in life!

you could base your final year thesis around a motorsport theme in dit.. of do the formula student project! you'll come out better off!

Cake Man

I'm a 4th year Mech & Manufacturing Eng student in WIT and it is a very good and broad course in that I'd have a chance of getting a job in a variety of areas (hopefully anyway!). I'd definitely agree with what matsil said, that a mechanics work and a mech eng's work are very different (so many people tend to catagorise these as the same/similar but they're not). I would be able to calculate things like the clearance volume, swept area, compression ratios etc. of an engine but if it came to taking an engine apart, I'd have a very limited knowledge, this showing the differences in occupations.
Also agree with what Doc_Savage and some others mentioned, you should prob do a mech eng course, get your degree in that and then look at the motorsport area you are interested in, at least that way you have a plan B and aren't confined to just 1 area. Like D_S said, you could base your final year project on engines or something in that area. A lad in my class is doing his FYP on bio-diesel engines so that could be an idea. The courses here in Ireland are just as good as anywhere else so whatever you choose to do good luck!

thermo dynamics plays a huge part in engine design and it's so abstract you'll probably hate it!

Tell me about it!!

engsmeng

i have at this from both sides as i am in 3rd year mech eng in ucd,and have worked as mechanic and in a precision machine shop. I have to agree with all of what matsil said, a good indepth course in general mechanical engineer would be the best platform to move on from in the future. When you understand the core ideas of thermodynamics, fluid dynamics and materials your well equipted to do well in many fields. The other aspects of these motorsport degrees can be understood to a deeper level after a general degree with nothing more than a basic introduction to them. the course outline for the uk courses does appear to me to be filled with fluff as matsil said, ive covered most of if not all of the topics in the first two years of my degree.
My advice would be dont overlook the mech eng courses in the major collages/It's as it has given me the opertunity and understanding to grasp many aspects of many engineering topics.

kieran--f

thanks for the replys i also believe maths is teached different over there so maybe staying home UL would be best

Diabhal_Glas

Hi Kieran-f

There is a motorsport Engineering & management course in Cranfield that you can do in the UK when you finish your Degree. It is highly regarded but not so easy to gain entry into. It has good ties with the whole motorsport industry and would be a great starting point BUT..

Having worked in the UK motorsport industry; it isn't uncommon to put in 12 hour days 5-6 days a week and can be pretty much expected of you. Competition to get in is fierce and there is a good chance you wont have a lot of time for a lot of other things like clubs in the evening etc, trips away at the weekend.
You may also be reminded in not so many words that you are one of the privileged few to work in the industry and that the long hours goes with the territory. This may be all well and good if you don't want much of a life outside of the work or live to work.

bnt

matsil wrote: »

Should an architect be able to lay blocks and pour concrete?

Should a structural engineer be able to weld and bend steel?

Should architects spend all their time on drawings, balsa wood models and CAD renderings? Should structural engineers spend their days behind a computer, looking at tables of parameters and running FEM calculations?

I dunno about "should" in either case, but I can see how it would help to gain a feel for the materials. These disciplines are not only about the creation of new buildings, but also involve repair, renovation or redesign of existing buildings.

Well said
I did a degree in Applied Physics and in first year we did mechanical stuff every Friday afternoon for half the year. We all made an adjustable spanner from scratch more or less, we filed a rectangular piece of metal into a cylinder which we then threaded and also tapped (or dyed can't remember which) threads onto the thumb piece. Made the other bits and pieces and rivited it al together, in the end most of them were complete crap but we learned a lot. Lots of mechanical engineering graduated from various colleges leave with a degree never having seen a lathe or CNC. Hardly ideal.

matsil

RoverJames wrote: »

Well said
I did a degree in Applied Physics and in first year we did mechanical stuff every Friday afternoon for half the year. We all made an adjustable spanner from scratch more or less, we filed a rectangular piece of metal into a cylinder which we then threaded and also tapped (or dyed can't remember which) threads onto the thumb piece. Made the other bits and pieces and rivited it al together, in the end most of them were complete crap but we learned a lot. Lots of mechanical engineering graduated from various colleges leave with a degree never having seen a lathe or CNC. Hardly ideal.

I agree with this - I did my mechanical at CIT.... (RTS at the time) lots of hands on stuff.... built structures and crushed them, built a locking mechanism.... done lots of filing, tapping, and all that malarky too ..... used milling machine, both manual and automated..... did some CNC programming and made various shapes etc.... did stuff like cam balancing and strobe measurements and all that too. I personally can weld, grind, drill, paint and all that as would be carreid out in a fabrication shop, having done some summer work in one etc..... so I would have been more competent than most, but none the less it was good for the typical acedemic type to get their hands drty for a bit.

desertstorm

Personally, after spending 6 years in a workshop from junior to leaving cert and then moving on to a largely academic degree in TCD, I have noticed that when it comes to design projects I'm able to spot potential problems that could arise further down the line and think of designs that are a lot more "buildable" than a lot of the others on my course.

I would like to see all engineers get even a small workshop task in 1st year to help this sort of thinking

That said, while this is obviously an important skill to develop, I would personally feel that hands on skills are a lot easier to develop than academic skills and I'm quite happy to spend most of my time in the books.

I'd prefer build a solid foundation on my theory while there's still a small army of people around me whose job is to help get it across, although I guess I'm biased since I've already spent a lot of time working hands on

All that said, I have to say that TCD are improving their freshman engineering course to be a bit more hands on


With regard skipping straight into Motorsports Mech eng, I think it'd be best to try avoid that route, do a general Mech Eng. degree then maybe do a postgrad course specializing in the area you want to move into or try join a graduate course in the company you want to work in.

You don't know what the jobs in that industry are going to be like in a few years time and you might even develop an interest in some other field of engineering.

Besides the more variety of things you study and understand, the more you bring to the table when problem solving

kieran--f

ok thanks another option is automotive engineering which is broader than motorsport engineering too but i think a 4 year beng in motorsport engineering would be very intersesting and if that didnt work out i could do a 1year mechanicail engineering masters sort of the other way around to what ye were suggesting

Most 3rd level auto engineering courses are not great really, certainly not related to a mech eng course, you'd struggle to get into a masters after doing one to be honest.

matsil

RoverJames wrote: »

Most 3rd level auto engineering courses are not great really, certainly not related to a mech eng course, you'd struggle to get into a masters after doing one to be honest.

I concur - nothing really to add without repeating what pretty much everyone, including myself, has said.

What I would say to you is that we are all a bunch of strangers. From that you can draw two conclusions: (1) the advice you have received is impartial and pretty consistant (2) none of us know you, your capability, or your personality. So it is now up to you to draw from the advice you have gotten here, and else where, and make up your own mind because it is you that will have to live with your choices. If you are hell bent on doing something with the word "automotive" (or similar) in the title, and you believe that is right for you, don't let us disuade you.

kieran--f

ok i think mechanical in ul would be best then maybe do a years masters in london in motorsport

ibh

kieran--f wrote: »

ok i think mechanical in ul would be best then maybe do a years masters in london in motorsport

Hi Kieran, just saw this thread now. Hope you are taking in the good advice thats been offered here.

I have a friend from Uni who had similar ambitions to you a few years ago. He went to study Motorsport Engineering in Wales out of school. Didn't enjoy the course at all and ended up dropping out.

Went back to Ireland and ended up studying Mechanical Eng at Queens in Belfast. After his degree(MEng) he managed to get a job with an F1 team on the back of good results and experience with the Formula Student programme at Queens, which is well run and supported.

My mate is now working with one of the top F1 teams, so it shows that you don't have to go for a degree that is specifically about motorsport.

If you have any concerns about living in Belfast, don't.. It's a fantastic city to study in with good courses and great nightlife.

Best of luck with the decision anyway.