Children changing their faith

brickmaster

Hi, I’m a long time lurker in these parts but a first time poster. Just to let you know where I am coming from I am an atheist.

A friend of mine, a born again Christian (I’m not sure which denomination) got married recently and thinking of her is what brought up this question in my mind.

She comes from devoutly catholic family who are very active in the local church. When she became born again some of her family, particularly her mom, practically disowned her.

I got me thinking of how Christians react to their children not sharing their faith.

How would react if one of your children either chose a different denomination of Christianity from you, chose a different religion completely, or rejected God altogether.

Would you view it as a betrayal, or that the devil had deceived them (if they rejected god), or would you accept their choice. Would you cut contact them once you thought that they were not coming back to the ‘flock’

I guess I am just trying to understand the rational for how she was treated and get an insight as to how other Christians think on the subject.

I suppose the question could also be extended to a spouse who lost faith and left the church.

iUseVi

brickmaster wrote: »

Hi, I’m a long time lurker in these parts but a first time poster. Just to let you know where I am coming from I am an atheist.

A friend of mine, a born again Christian (I’m not sure which denomination) got married recently and thinking of her is what brought up this question in my mind.

She comes from devoutly catholic family who are very active in the local church. When she became born again some of her family, particularly her mom, practically disowned her.

I got me thinking of how Christians react to their children not sharing their faith.

How would react if one of your children either chose a different denomination of Christianity from you, chose a different religion completely, or rejected God altogether.

Would you view it as a betrayal, or that the devil had deceived them (if they rejected god), or would you accept their choice. Would you cut contact them once you thought that they were not coming back to the ‘flock’

I guess I am just trying to understand the rational for how she was treated and get an insight as to how other Christians think on the subject.

I suppose the question could also be extended to a spouse who lost faith and left the church.

Interesting question. I would also be interested in answers to this question. I am coming from the opposite side whereby I was the child that abandoned his parents religion. Would be interesting to see others experiences.

Fanny Cradock

I would imagine that I would love them all the same.

antiskeptic

brickmaster wrote: »

Hi, I’m a long time lurker in these parts but a first time poster. Just to let you know where I am coming from I am an atheist.

Welcome to the fray!

A friend of mine, a born again Christian (I’m not sure which denomination) got married recently and thinking of her is what brought up this question in my mind.

She comes from devoutly catholic family who are very active in the local church. When she became born again some of her family, particularly her mom, practically disowned her.

Some basic Christian background.

Man can occupy but one of two possible states with respect to God: he can be lost or he can be found. It doesn't matter what label a person attaches to themselves (atheist, Roman Catholic, born again, agnostic) - what matters is how God views them: lost or found.

The second thing to note is that the found person belongs to and is under the influence of, the kingdom of God. God's kingdom is opposed to the kingdom in which the lost person resides. And so there is a natural emnity between folk on both sides. They are as the Allies and the Axis during WWII: soldiers obeying orders from different masters

The third thing to note is that a person calling themselves a Christian might not be a found person. It is the case that many Christians are cultural Christians only (mainly Roman Catholicism in Ireland and mainly Protestant in England/US). Cultural Christians are still lost according to God. As lost as your own atheist self as it happens.

Combining this we have a working hypothesis concerning the case you highlight;

a) Your friend became a Christian according to God. She was "born again from above" (as the saying goes) and so became found. At that point, she was taken out of the control of Satans rule and placed under the control of Gods rule. God switched her from the opposing side to his side, in other words.

b) Her family aren't Christians according to God but are ,erely cultural Christians. And remain as they were originally born into this world: lost.

c) Emnity (as detailed above in the WWII analogy) exists between the two kingdoms represented in this household: the kingdom of God living in your friend will cause the kingdom of Satan (under whose control the mother resides) to react in the manner of Satan. Lovelessly.

Prior to your friends "rebirth" all in the household were in darkness. Now that your friend has switched sides, Satan is on the attack, utilising the mother as a primary weapon of his choice. Your friend will be under attack of some sort or other until the day she dies. Such is war.

How would react if one of your children either chose a different denomination of Christianity from you, chose a different religion completely, or rejected God altogether.

Would you view it as a betrayal, or that the devil had deceived them (if they rejected god), or would you accept their choice. Would you cut contact them once you thought that they were not coming back to the ‘flock’

The first thing to note is that all my children are born lost. In bringing them to church my first expectation is that they will become cultural Christians of the denomination I happen to attend. A few paths for them are possible:

1) The become born again - in which case I couldn't give a fiddlers which denomination they attend (although I'd hope for their sake it's not a looney toons fringe). They are saved whether they attend my church, another church or no church at all. And that's the main thing.

2) They convert from lost cultural Christians to lost agnostics/atheists. There is no change of position in essence - so nothing to react to in particular. I'd love them as much as lost cultural Christians as I would them lost cultural atheists. Indeed, I would expect them to move from the cultural position of their upbringing to the cultural position of society (secularism) as a matter of course.

Phil D

People behave in the most horrible ways in the name or religion. If I was shunned for changing my religion (or opinion) I’d be quite happy those small minded fools were out of my life. People are going to take whatever they want out of religion and all too often it’s the dark side that’s chosen.

Fanny Cradock

Phil D wrote: »

People behave in the most horrible ways in the name or religion.

Let's not ignore the bigger picture. People behave in the most horrible ways.

wolfsbane

antiskeptic wrote: »

Welcome to the fray!





Some basic Christian background.

Man can occupy but one of two possible states with respect to God: he can be lost or he can be found. It doesn't matter what label a person attaches to themselves (atheist, Roman Catholic, born again, agnostic) - what matters is how God views them: lost or found.

The second thing to note is that the found person belongs to and is under the influence of, the kingdom of God. God's kingdom is opposed to the kingdom in which the lost person resides. And so there is a natural emnity between folk on both sides. They are as the Allies and the Axis during WWII: soldiers obeying orders from different masters

The third thing to note is that a person calling themselves a Christian might not be a found person. It is the case that many Christians are cultural Christians only (mainly Roman Catholicism in Ireland and mainly Protestant in England/US). Cultural Christians are still lost according to God. As lost as your own atheist self as it happens.

Combining this we have a working hypothesis concerning the case you highlight;

a) Your friend became a Christian according to God. She was "born again from above" (as the saying goes) and so became found. At that point, she was taken out of the control of Satans rule and placed under the control of Gods rule. God switched her from the opposing side to his side, in other words.

b) Her family aren't Christians according to God but are ,erely cultural Christians. And remain as they were originally born into this world: lost.

c) Emnity (as detailed above in the WWII analogy) exists between the two kingdoms represented in this household: the kingdom of God living in your friend will cause the kingdom of Satan (under whose control the mother resides) to react in the manner of Satan. Lovelessly.

Prior to your friends "rebirth" all in the household were in darkness. Now that your friend has switched sides, Satan is on the attack, utilising the mother as a primary weapon of his choice. Your friend will be under attack of some sort or other until the day she dies. Such is war.





The first thing to note is that all my children are born lost. In bringing them to church my first expectation is that they will become cultural Christians of the denomination I happen to attend. A few paths for them are possible:

1) The become born again - in which case I couldn't give a fiddlers which denomination they attend (although I'd hope for their sake it's not a looney toons fringe). They are saved whether they attend my church, another church or no church at all. And that's the main thing.

2) They convert from lost cultural Christians to lost agnostics/atheists. There is no change of position in essence - so nothing to react to in particular. I'd love them as much as lost cultural Christians as I would them lost cultural atheists. Indeed, I would expect them to move from the cultural position of their upbringing to the cultural position of society (secularism) as a matter of course.

Well said.

krudler

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Let's not ignore the bigger picture. People behave in the most horrible ways.

But how many wars have been started because of religion? how many millions of people have died in its name? land, titles, politics, natural resources, all fought over by war, but religion is the granddaddy of war starters

Fanny Cradock

krudler wrote: »

But how many wars have been started because of religion? how many millions of people have died in its name? land, titles, politics, natural resources, all fought over by war, but religion is the granddaddy of war starters

Directly because of religion? Very few, I would say.

In 2004, as part of a BBC program Bradford Uni audited all the major wars of last century - 32 in total. Of these only 3 had a significant religious element, which accounted for about 1% of all deaths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/world/04/war_audit_pdf/pdf/war_audit.pdf

Still, off topic, no?

antiskeptic

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

In 2004, as part of a BBC program Bradford Uni audited all the major wars of last century - 32 in total. Of these only 3 had a significant religious element, which accounted for about 1% of all deaths.

World War II only 2/5 on the scale of Religious Influence? Are they mad? Do they not know that every Wehrmacht soldier had "Gott mit Uns" cast into his belt buckle?

Deffo a religious war that..



Good link by the way

Fanny Cradock

antiskeptic wrote: »

World War II only 2/5 on the scale of Religious Influence? Are they mad? Do they not know that every Wehrmacht soldier has "Gott mit Uns" cast into his belt buckle?

Deffo a religious war that..



Good link by the way

That was sarcasm, right?

Anyway, the kids...

PDN

If my daughter abandoned her Christian faith I would be greatly concerned for her eternal welfare and would never cease to pray for her to return.

Equally I would never stop loving her and would continue to be proud of her achievements in life.

chozometroid

antiskeptic wrote: »

Welcome to the fray!





Some basic Christian background.

Man can occupy but one of two possible states with respect to God: he can be lost or he can be found. It doesn't matter what label a person attaches to themselves (atheist, Roman Catholic, born again, agnostic) - what matters is how God views them: lost or found.

The second thing to note is that the found person belongs to and is under the influence of, the kingdom of God. God's kingdom is opposed to the kingdom in which the lost person resides. And so there is a natural emnity between folk on both sides. They are as the Allies and the Axis during WWII: soldiers obeying orders from different masters

The third thing to note is that a person calling themselves a Christian might not be a found person. It is the case that many Christians are cultural Christians only (mainly Roman Catholicism in Ireland and mainly Protestant in England/US). Cultural Christians are still lost according to God. As lost as your own atheist self as it happens.

Combining this we have a working hypothesis concerning the case you highlight;

a) Your friend became a Christian according to God. She was "born again from above" (as the saying goes) and so became found. At that point, she was taken out of the control of Satans rule and placed under the control of Gods rule. God switched her from the opposing side to his side, in other words.

b) Her family aren't Christians according to God but are ,erely cultural Christians. And remain as they were originally born into this world: lost.

c) Emnity (as detailed above in the WWII analogy) exists between the two kingdoms represented in this household: the kingdom of God living in your friend will cause the kingdom of Satan (under whose control the mother resides) to react in the manner of Satan. Lovelessly.

Prior to your friends "rebirth" all in the household were in darkness. Now that your friend has switched sides, Satan is on the attack, utilising the mother as a primary weapon of his choice. Your friend will be under attack of some sort or other until the day she dies. Such is war.





The first thing to note is that all my children are born lost. In bringing them to church my first expectation is that they will become cultural Christians of the denomination I happen to attend. A few paths for them are possible:

1) The become born again - in which case I couldn't give a fiddlers which denomination they attend (although I'd hope for their sake it's not a looney toons fringe). They are saved whether they attend my church, another church or no church at all. And that's the main thing.

2) They convert from lost cultural Christians to lost agnostics/atheists. There is no change of position in essence - so nothing to react to in particular. I'd love them as much as lost cultural Christians as I would them lost cultural atheists. Indeed, I would expect them to move from the cultural position of their upbringing to the cultural position of society (secularism) as a matter of course.

wolfsbane beat me to it, but I must say, this is the best post I've read in a while.

brickmaster

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would imagine that I would love them all the same.

PDN wrote: »

If my daughter abandoned her Christian faith I would be greatly concerned for her eternal welfare and would never cease to pray for her to return.

Equally I would never stop loving her and would continue to be proud of her achievements in life.

These are the kind of answers i was expecting/hoping to see. It just didn't make sense to me the way she was disowned. I'd even say it didn't seem very 'Christian' if I can use the word.

Out of curiosity, would you your reaction be if your spouse lost faith. If they didn't change their actions in any way, but simply lost faith. Would it be the same?

I find faith a very fascinating subject simply because I don't understand it I guess. Its only recently that I fully realised how differently I view the world to some other people. Not in my beliefs but in how I arrive at my beliefs.

chozometroid

brickmaster wrote: »

These are the kind of answers i was expecting/hoping to see. It just didn't make sense to me the way she was disowned. I'd even say it didn't seem very 'Christian' if I can use the word.

Out of curiosity, would you your reaction be if your spouse lost faith. If they didn't change their actions in any way, but simply lost faith. Would it be the same?

I find faith a very fascinating subject simply because I don't understand it I guess. Its only recently that I fully realised how differently I view the world to some other people. Not in my beliefs but in how I arrive at my beliefs.

I would feel the same whether it be a spouse or child. I would continue to love them and pray for them. Everyone has their own mind and thoughts, and I respect other people's freedom to have their own beliefs.

It would greatly sadden me to think my spouse or child lost their faith, but in no way would it hinder our relationship.....unless of course they started changing their lifestyle into something I could not support, like drinking, taking drugs, having promiscuous sex, etc. If that happened, I would still love them and try my best to counsel them, but I could not "hang" with them in their new endeavors.

Fanny Cradock

brickmaster wrote: »

It just didn't make sense to me the way she was disowned. I'd even say it didn't seem very 'Christian' if I can use the word.

Yes, but then sadly some of the lest Christian people are Christians. I am baffled by the mindset that you describe.

brickmaster wrote: »

Out of curiosity, would you your reaction be if your spouse lost faith. If they didn't change their actions in any way, but simply lost faith. Would it be the same?

The relationship dynamics are different. I assume there will be points of tension, the severity of which depends very much on how much our worldviews departed from each other. Ideally the approach would be the same: love and prayer (and incessant badgering ;P).

brickmaster wrote: »

I find faith a very fascinating subject simply because I don't understand it I guess. Its only recently that I fully realised how differently I view the world to some other people. Not in my beliefs but in how I arrive at my beliefs.

I guess you specifically mean religious faith, because we all have faith of one sort or another.

How do you arrive at your beliefs?

PDN

brickmaster wrote: »

Out of curiosity, would you your reaction be if your spouse lost faith. If they didn't change their actions in any way, but simply lost faith. Would it be the same?

Can't even imagine that happening tbh. It would be about as likely as discovering that she's secretly an axe wielding serial killer.

iUseVi

The older someone is the less likely they are to lose faith in my experience. Deconversions seem to peak at the college years. Don't ask me why.

Fanny Cradock

The phrase, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" springs to mind.

I don't think it controversial to say that belief in God and youth are often at opposite ends of the divide. I've also encountered a spike in interest in the Divine/ spiritual in and around the 30 mark or with the arrival of a child. Some dismiss this, others pursue.

homer911

I have two teenage children and one not quite there yet..

The older two both have a developing faith which is great to witness. As a parent, on one level I don't think I could ever stop loving my children - even if they turned out to be the proverbial axe murderers - on another level, I feel a certain amount of sadness when we argue over the stupid things that parents fuss over.

A great preacher friend, now gone to the Lord (Reggie Fry, some of you may know of him/have heard him preach - always brilliant with the kids) used to illustrate God's love for us in a particular way, which is I think relevant to this thread.

He would produce a length of chain and a length of thread and have a child tug on the end of the chain - of course it wouldn't break - a metaphor for God's love for us. He would then get the child to pull on the length of thread and of course if would snap - he used this as a metaphor of God's fellowship with us, and how we damage/break that fellowship by the things we do or don't do, but also that the fellowship can be renewed. The important thing to note is that the chain never breaks, and I think this describes an adult/child relationship quite well too.

So to answer the OP, my children will always be my children and I will always love them, no matter what faith they have or none, axe murderer, humanist, agnostic...

brickmaster

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I guess you specifically mean religious faith, because we all have faith of one sort or another.

How do you arrive at your beliefs?

No I mean all faith. I'm facinated by how we as humans come to our opinions and beliefs about almost everything, including religion, based upon things we have not experienced firsthand.

We choose to accept certain accounts of events and we choose to discount others. There seems to be a multitude of reasons of why and how people arrive at these positions.

To me it seems that alot of people use emotion as one of the primary driving factors in arriving their opinions and beliefs.

I don't.

I always try to strip emotion out of all decisons with the exception of personal relationships.

An example of this would be at a funeral. I would desperatly like to believe that the person who has just died has accended into heavan (as you believe). I'm sure that if I wished it hard enough I could start to believe it.

But when I remove the emotional context, the concept of heavan does not make sense to me logically. So I accept that this person is probally gone and their remains are just rotting in the ground. Regardless of how it makes me feel.

But back on topic,

Thank you everyone for responding. I guess that I was just reassuring myself that this was not the way a normal christian family would react to the suitation they found themselves in.

iUseVi

homer911 wrote: »

A great preacher friend, now gone to the Lord (Reggie Fry, some of you may know of him/have heard him preach - always brilliant with the kids) used to illustrate God's love for us in a particular way, which is I think relevant to this thread.

I remember him! He used to always have little toys in his pockets.

PDN

brickmaster wrote: »

To me it seems that alot of people use emotion as one of the primary driving factors in arriving their opinions and beliefs.

I don't.

I always try to strip emotion out of all decisons with the exception of personal relationships.

And, for many of us, our faith in God is part of a personal relationship.

homer911

iUseVi wrote: »

I remember him! He used to always have little toys in his pockets.

And always had a supply of Lemon's sweets!

It makes him sound like a child molester, but nothing could be further from the truth - a real man of God, kept praying for everyone years after he had met them, and sometimes gave you call to keep his prayer records up to date..

Fanny Cradock

homer911 wrote: »

I have two teenage children and one not quite there yet..

The older two both have a developing faith which is great to witness. As a parent, on one level I don't think I could ever stop loving my children - even if they turned out to be the proverbial axe murderers - on another level, I feel a certain amount of sadness when we argue over the stupid things that parents fuss over.

A great preacher friend, now gone to the Lord (Reggie Fry, some of you may know of him/have heard him preach - always brilliant with the kids) used to illustrate God's love for us in a particular way, which is I think relevant to this thread.

He would produce a length of chain and a length of thread and have a child tug on the end of the chain - of course it wouldn't break - a metaphor for God's love for us. He would then get the child to pull on the length of thread and of course if would snap - he used this as a metaphor of God's fellowship with us, and how we damage/break that fellowship by the things we do or don't do, but also that the fellowship can be renewed. The important thing to note is that the chain never breaks, and I think this describes an adult/child relationship quite well too.

So to answer the OP, my children will always be my children and I will always love them, no matter what faith they have or none, axe murderer, humanist, agnostic...

Reggie was a great man. The admittedly few times I met him as a child I remember fondly.

Fanny Cradock

brickmaster wrote: »

No I mean all faith. I'm facinated by how we as humans come to our opinions and beliefs about almost everything, including religion, based upon things we have not experienced firsthand.

We choose to accept certain accounts of events and we choose to discount others. There seems to be a multitude of reasons of why and how people arrive at these positions.

To me it seems that alot of people use emotion as one of the primary driving factors in arriving their opinions and beliefs.

I don't.

I always try to strip emotion out of all decisons with the exception of personal relationships.

An example of this would be at a funeral. I would desperatly like to believe that the person who has just died has accended into heavan (as you believe). I'm sure that if I wished it hard enough I could start to believe it.

But when I remove the emotional context, the concept of heavan does not make sense to me logically. So I accept that this person is probally gone and their remains are just rotting in the ground. Regardless of how it makes me feel.

But back on topic,

Thank you everyone for responding. I guess that I was just reassuring myself that this was not the way a normal christian family would react to the suitation they found themselves in.

*Off topic*
Interesting! People naturally look for patterns, I guess. Sometimes they find it where there is none, other times they miss the obvious.

Though possibly a tangential thought, given the remarkable order that underpins the universe - the rationality and intelligibility found at its very core - I don't see why believing that this universe just happens to exist (for reasons unknown prior to the Big Bang) is any more logical than believing that something (the Creator) exists outside of it. "God of the Gaps!", is the usual retort, but perhaps not. You might be interested in reading both The Mind of God by Paul Davies and Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright.

*Off topic*

Thomas828

iUseVi wrote: »

The older someone is the less likely they are to lose faith in my experience. Deconversions seem to peak at the college years. Don't ask me why.

I think I know why. People in their teens and twenties are growing up spiritually as well as physically. They look outside the confines of the beliefs they inherit from their parents and start exploring other religions and politics. Some end up rejecting religion altogether. When you reach your thirties and forties your mindset settles down and you are much less likely to take on another religion. I am speaking from my own experience here.

Greaney

Back to the question

I converted to (orthodox) Christianity in my twenties, my humanist/agnostic/buddist/ lapsed Catholic family thought it was hilarious. The fact that I teach Sunday school has only added to their amusement. I'm not insulted, in fact I'm the least likely Christian you'll ever meet so I can't say I don't see their point of view.

My son has drifted away from the Church and faith I reared him in and although I'm a bit sad about it, I'd NEVER disown him. He has his own path to walk and God's knows what the plan is. I don't. So all I can do is pray, Chill and love him

keano_afc

homer911 wrote: »

And always had a supply of Lemon's sweets!

It makes him sound like a child molester, but nothing could be further from the truth - a real man of God, kept praying for everyone years after he had met them, and sometimes gave you call to keep his prayer records up to date..

He spoke at our church often, an amazing man. Do you remember the little frogs he used to take out of his pockets? He gave me a lift to camp once, never went over 20 miles an hour in his Rover.