This what happens in the music biz these days...

madtheory

This is shocking:

Juno Falls blog entry.

All the talk lately about music biz... that speaks for itself...

fitz

He's not wrong. Very easy to get fed up with the way the "scene" works in this country.

Welease

Maybe it's me.. but I honestly don't see the problem..

I admit I'm not familiar with Juno Falls, but he/she seems to be pissed that other people won't throw money in their direction without being certain it's not wasted money..

Welcome to the real fkin world... (and i don't mean to sound like an arse)..

but if he/she is that convinced that they are THAT good.. why don't they take out a huge bankloan/sell their mum's house and put their money on the line.. Might not be so gung ho about it then..

PaulBrewer

I used to work with the rhythm section of the original Juno Falls (who were Music Maker Alumni) and through them met Myles, with whom I still keep in occasional contact.

The most telling line for me is -

"This is Ireland, all the same people who refused me still call the shots and the verdict has been passed"

In the words of Haircut 100 -

'Where do we go from here...?'

Best of Luck Myles !

i57dwun4yb1pt8

hes pretty good I must say .

Rockshamrover

It's the same old story at the end of the day. He's just the latest in a long line of people who had/have more talent than 5000 Jedwards.

The thing is though, Jedward are a sure thing when it comes to cashing in. The public have bought into them. The money men know this and they will make money and then walk away when their 15 minutes of fame are over.

I think "where do we go from here?" is a question that lots of irish bands have faced in the past. Ireland is a very small place and you don't get second chances in the music biz.

Lots of talented people have had to leave Ireland to get the recognition they deserved. Lots more talented people left and came back with nothing.

It's just the way it is.

The good news for Myles is, he is multi talented and has very quickly found a new way to be creative. He also has a lot of loyal friends and colleagues. That says more to me about the man than anything else.

studiorat

Music BUSINESS! Why do you think they call it that?

It's not art, it's sales...

jtsuited

interesting read, and I can certainly see where he is coming from. Years ago I went through a very similar thing. The problem as I see it in Ireland is that there are far far far too many middle men in the rock n roll game.

Far too many people and not a big enough market to justify them. So only the real cash cows get a look in and get treated with any sort of decency.
What's worse is that coupled with this situation is that if you are deemed 'profitable' by a certain handful of people, you are entirely at their beck and call, and they are very very territorial animals.

However, the Irish market has never been big enough for bands to not seriously struggle even if they 'break'.

There's only so many times you can do a whelans/stables/lobby/mcgarrigles/roisin dubh tour in a year, and for four or five lads trying to make a living off it is difficult. Throw in the inevitably loss-making independent record making paradigm and the situation appears even more bleak.

So in order to make ends meet in a realistic and substantial way, aspirations of big label/international success creep in and then the problems really kick in. If that doesn't take off in a massive way, you're going to be viewed as returning with your tail between your legs (and most bands break up at this point).

All this while trying to make something you believe in AND that your audience likes? Unworkable situation imo for the vast majority of actual artists.

madtheory

Probably best to emigrate then, to a country with a more developed music business infrastructure. Is it just too small here? There's a line between art and business. But they can, and should, co-exist. But there's no sense in the art suffering, because then there's no product.

fitz

jtsuited wrote: »

interesting read, and I can certainly see where he is coming from. Years ago I went through a very similar thing. The problem as I see it in Ireland is that there are far far far too many middle men in the rock n roll game.

Far too many people and not a big enough market to justify them. So only the real cash cows get a look in and get treated with any sort of decency.
What's worse is that coupled with this situation is that if you are deemed 'profitable' by a certain handful of people, you are entirely at their beck and call, and they are very very territorial animals.

However, the Irish market has never been big enough for bands to not seriously struggle even if they 'break'.

There's only so many times you can do a whelans/stables/lobby/mcgarrigles/roisin dubh tour in a year, and for four or five lads trying to make a living off it is difficult. Throw in the inevitably loss-making independent record making paradigm and the situation appears even more bleak.

So in order to make ends meet in a realistic and substantial way, aspirations of big label/international success creep in and then the problems really kick in. If that doesn't take off in a massive way, you're going to be viewed as returning with your tail between your legs (and most bands break up at this point).

All this while trying to make something you believe in AND that your audience likes? Unworkable situation imo for the vast majority of actual artists.

This is pretty much it.
Getting ahead here has nothing to do with how good the music is, or how it would be received by the public if it was played every other hour on radio. Unless you have the people, and usually money, behind you to get the stuff heard, potential fans won't even know about it, never mind buy it.

Welease

fitz wrote: »

This is pretty much it.
Getting ahead here has nothing to do with how good the music is, or how it would be received by the public if it was played every other hour on radio. Unless you have the people, and usually money, behind you to get the stuff heard, potential fans won't even know about it, never mind buy it.

There's a large degree of truth in that, but people also need to bear in mind a lot of the "good" bands I hear touted about in Ireland are pretty bloody average and there are 50 better versions coming out of other countries with bigger markets. The average punter doesnt give a crap if you work hard, are nice guys etc.

For example (and no offence to anyone involved, just my opinion as a consumer), I went to the Juno Falls myspace last night and listened to all the tracks posted there.. Nicely recorded, nicely produced... but essentially devoid of anything actually interesting. I have heard far better tracks by other bands a million times.. Maybe success was always going to be limited because put quiet simply those tracks don't make me want to spend my hard earned cash on something so instantly forgettable. Did anyone walk away humming those tunes?

A tiny percentage of bands will actually make it, and bands from Ireland have made it before (maybe with huge backing).. but sometimes.. sometimes.. you didn't make it, because put simply you aren't good enough.

jtsuited

fitz wrote: »

This is pretty much it.
Getting ahead here has nothing to do with how good the music is, or how it would be received by the public if it was played every other hour on radio. Unless you have the people, and usually money, behind you to get the stuff heard, potential fans won't even know about it, never mind buy it.

which reminds me. don't know if you read it in the OT thread but I heard your band on 98fm (very surprised they actually play anything apart from xfactor stuff) the other night. Sounded good. recognised the song but then the harmonics on the outro (they played the whole thing) gave it away.

maccored

studiorat wrote: »

Music BUSINESS! Why do you think they call it that?

It's not art, it's sales...

and thats precisely the problem - music *is* art and is not sales. its the *sales* side that infects and ****s up the music part.

Welease

maccored wrote: »

and thats precisely the problem - music *is* art and is not sales. its the *sales* side that infects and ****s up the music part.

Only if you as an artist expect to make money from it..
You can do your "art" for free without any restrictions.

fitz

jtsuited wrote: »

which reminds me. don't know if you read it in the OT thread but I heard your band on 98fm (very surprised they actually play anything apart from xfactor stuff) the other night. Sounded good. recognised the song but then the harmonics on the outro (they played the whole thing) gave it away.

They seem to be playing it a couple of times a week on 98 at night, which is pretty cool.

Welease, I agree, Juno Falls was always two low key to excite. Myles' older material when they played as Blotooth was a different kettle of fish entirely. Great stuff.

maccored

Welease wrote: »

Only if you as an artist expect to make money from it..
You can do your "art" for free without any restrictions.

And whats the problem with that? Who says music HAS to support the amount of eejits it currently does? If people arent interested in working on their music for free then they shouldnt be musicians, as the love of the art comes way before the making of the money. I think its this 'its a business' attitute thats ****ed it all up.

Welease

maccored wrote: »

And whats the problem with that? Who says music HAS to support the amount of eejits it currently does? If people arent interested in working on their music for free then they shouldnt be musicians, as the love of the art comes way before the making of the money. I think its this 'its a business' attitute thats ****ed it all up.

Absolutely, but that was the essence of the blog post and hence this thread He quit because people won't spend money to support his "art" ..

madtheory

Welease wrote: »

For example (and no offence to anyone involved, just my opinion as a consumer), I went to the Juno Falls myspace last night and listened to all the tracks posted there.. Nicely recorded, nicely produced... but essentially devoid of anything actually interesting.

Wow, you didn't like Atom Bomb? Well, there arae people who hate the Beatles...

Welease

madtheory wrote: »

Wow, you didn't like Atom Bomb? Well, there arae people who hate the Beatles...

lol true..

Honestly? It really doesnt jump out at me in a way that would make me stop and want to know more.. It feels lifeless to me, and trudges along for 3:55. It's nice, it's well done, it would suit background music in a movie, but would I be arsed if I never heard it again.... probably not.

To put it into perspective, the effects remind me of Radiohead circa OK Computer (Karma Police etc). But there are major differences in the detail.. Yorke has an amazing soulful voice full or expression, and Radiohead had hooks that kept you humming them all day.. 2 mins later I honestly don't remember much of the detail behind Atom Bomb..

Thats not to say it's a bad song, or anything it just wouldnt make we want to spend lots of cash to promote them as a band, which is essentially why he has quit.. To me, they fall short of the competition and thats the main issue..

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

Wow, you didn't like Atom Bomb? Well, there arae people who hate the Beatles...

I agree with Welease on this one. The songs sound good and are nicely recorded, but the production is a long way off of the kind of production you hear in acoustic based rock which is actually doing the business e.g. Peter Katis's work with The National, that whole T-Bone Burnett sound, Ethan Johns work with Ray LaMonatagne etc.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Wow, you didn't like Atom Bomb? Well, there arae people who hate the Beatles...

I thought when I heard Atom Bomb it was going to be a monster album - I'm not sure anything I heard after than was as good.

PaulBrewer

Welease wrote: »

A tiny percentage of bands will actually make it, and bands from Ireland have made it before (maybe with huge backing).. but sometimes.. sometimes.. you didn't make it, because put simply you aren't good enough.

That's the way I read it too ...


I think the last Irish album I loved was Clannad's Magical Ring and before that U2's Boy and before that Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous!
But thinking in terms of music as being 'Irish' or otherwise isn't a healthy approach , I think.
You either step up to the Universal mark or you don't. Most don't. Thinking in any other terms quickly leads to the mindset of 'the world dun me wrong'


I had an acquaintance who all he listened to was 'Irish' bands and constantly used to go on about how they 'never got a chance' etc etc.

I've worked with some 'semi' successful bands and always felt there was a fatal flaw with them in some way.

It's the nature of the Universe, good bands are rare.

dav nagle

maccored wrote: »

I think its this 'its a business' attitute thats ****ed it all up.

Well someone has to pay for the record, flights, accommodation, food, videos :pac::pac: of course it has to be treated like business. Business will never stop true talent from rising to the top it's the bands who have the 'x' factor syndrome and believe they are better than they really are who are deluded. Good is just okay these days you have to be mind blowing.

maccored

Well someone has to pay for the record, flights, accommodation, food, videos of course it has to be treated like business. Business will never stop true talent from rising to the top it's the bands who have the 'x' factor syndrome and believe they are better than they really are who are deluded. Good is just okay these days you have to be mind blowing.

dont put the horse before the cart though. when a musician has somethign to sell that people want to buy then worry about the business end. these days it seems to not start with making good music - it starts with 'how much can we make from this' - thats arseways round.

PaulBrewer

maccored wrote: »

- it starts with 'how much can we make from this'

Statistically 'Very Little, if anything' is the correct answer to this question.

But if you can't make a few bucks at least make decent music !

maccored

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Statistically 'Very Little, if anything' is the correct answer to this question.

But if you can't make a few bucks at least make decent music !

As long as a band attempts to make decent music, thats good enough for me.

madtheory

Re: Atom Bomb. Interesting. Maybe it's the production that doesn't work? There is an acoustic version around somewhere that has a different feel to it, in some ways it's better, in some ways not as good as the album version.

Fact is, the album was never promoted. I reckon if it was, it would've been a hit. There's another song there called "The Opposite of Everything" which would've fitted the clever pop song trend at the time, and therefore been a big hit. Obvious candidate for a hit video too.

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

Re: Atom Bomb. Interesting. Maybe it's the production that doesn't work? There is an acoustic version around somewhere that has a different feel to it, in some ways it's better, in some ways not as good as the album version.

Fact is, the album was never promoted. I reckon if it was, it would've been a hit. There's another song there called "The Opposite of Everything" which would've fitted the clever pop song trend at the time, and therefore been a big hit. Obvious candidate for a hit video too.

It might have been a hit in Ireland, but elsewhere I would be doubtful. Ultimately if you want to make money from it, elsewhere is what matters.

madtheory

I disagree. There was that song about refusing to write a love song. International hit. But I take your point. Bell X1 and the likes, with they're puns. Anways, it's a pity he didn't even get to that level.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Re: Atom Bomb. Interesting. Maybe it's the production that doesn't work?

I liked it too - done in Nashville as I recall ?
Not sure it's chart material but it's a Hit with me.

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I liked it too - done in Nashville as I recall ?
Not sure it's chart material but it's a Hit with me.

Mixed in Nashville, too?

PaulBrewer

Don't know ....

Rockshamrover

God, this is a very depressing thread.

Can we shut it down now and get back to our dreams of world domination using only three chords?

Seziertisch

Rockshamrover wrote: »

God, this is a very depressing thread.

Can we shut it down now and get back to our dreams of world domination using only three chords?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmlpuaXLMc

ZV Yoda

Seziertisch wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmlpuaXLMc

Link of the year so far

dav nagle

Seziertisch wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmlpuaXLMc

Tis amazing how much he grows on you

Rockshamrover

dav nagle wrote: »

Tis amazing how much he grows on you

The mans a living legend. I can't wait till they get back together again.

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmlpuaXLMc

One of my favourite bands !

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

One of my favourite bands !

One of my favourite songs of theirs, and so applicable to the whole band thing.

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Not sure it's chart material but it's a Hit with me.

If I had the money, I'd sign him...

Welease

madtheory wrote: »

If I had the money, I'd sign him...

The question is.. would you have much money after doing that?

madtheory

Welease wrote: »

The question is.. would you have much money after doing that?

Of course I would! I wouldn't do it otherwise. I'm always right y'know!

DeadMoney

Perhaps I am just being very ignorant in my opinion of the Irish music industry (or lack of one) but I have always felt that their simply isn't one in this country. Now I have no experience working with or dealing with anybody who is connected to the industry but from being a big music fan through out the last 10 years or so, this is the opinion I have formed. I have dismissed Ireland musically and while I am by no means denying the talent of certain Irish musicians, I just feel that this is the last country you want to be in if you want to make a serious attempt of being successful in making music.

I have always felt that anybody can get big in Ireland really fast because the the country is so small and its basically just Dublin, Galway, Cork anyway where major shows are held. I mean look at the likes of pure chancers like Mundy and Paddy Casey. These are the top selling artists in this country and they would never even get their foot in the door anywhere else. But they are mega big in Ireland. I used to be in to the Dublin music scene a few years ago when I was in school and I heard of a lot of really good Iirsh bands through the likes of No Disco etc but I always question why do these bands stay in Ireland? There doesn't seem to be much more you can achieve other than selling out Whelan's or Vic st every few months. I feel that any serious Irish band should just move to England or the States.

Obv a country like Ireland couldn't compete with either of these but there is actually big markets for such a wide variety of music in these places, and not just generic ****e break up songs or Steve Earle covers. I mean of you look at a band like Animal collective or Yeasayer or any band that is gaining big recognition right now in America. If those bands were from Dublin and trying to make it here they would not have a hope coz there is no market for it. Or a band like Wild Beasts from the UK, same thing. Like I said obviously Ireland can't even come close to competing with the UK or the states for obvious reasons but it just seems to me that the "music industry" here is so small and micky mouse that bands shouldn't waste their time here and move abroad.

Feel free to flame me for this but this is how I have always felt about Ireland and I'm pretty sure most big music fans and musicians I know feel the same.