How do you know - personal thoughts/events

suki07

Apologies if this has been dealt with before or more specifically if there is a thread dedicated to this question.

I'm just wondering how do you know that God exists? And I would like to stress, I do not read, nor have read and in all likely hood will not read the Bible. I'm looking for the ordinary person's response - someone who has faith but isn't devout I suppose. I don't mean to offend anyone here by the way. Given that I don't read the Bible I find some of the threads in this forum way over my head - so if at all I'd like the ordinary joe soaps response - and even from those of you who don't believe I'd like to hear your opinions too.

My faith has been wavering for a good few months now and I feel ready to totally abort and resign myself to the fact that my destiny is in my own hands. I completely gave up praying a while ago but somehow turned back towards it. I have to admit- the existence or lack of is causing me a lot of stress. I sometimes think I want there to be a God because it's a mean of escapism and it gives me a sense of hope and a sense of purpose. I'lll be honest, I try my best to be a good person, whether there exists a God or not. I do not live my life thinking about Judgement day etc., I worry about this life and I'll worry about the next - if there is one, later. I also pick and choose what I believe in.... certain aspects of my religion I accept and others I refuse. So basically, sometimes I think God is me - I suppose some sort of deeper understanding with oneself. Tbh, I'm disallusioned that events such as Haiti etc can happen. And on the other hand, I'm given hope that some ppl can devote their lives to something they are not 100% certain exists - and I think that that is rather beautiful.

I've been praying to God and saying I may not actually believe.. and maybe my prayers are being answered and maybe I'm ignoring the signs who knows!! But have you anything that really makes you believe? For me, life with God is such a better place... and I'm much happier... but tbh, more often than not I need this belief to help me keep going and often think I'm deluding myself. The more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems.

Fanny Cradock

Do you consider yourself to be Christian, Suki? I ask because if you are a Christian it's odd that you would flatly refuse to read the bible.

I think the question you have to ask yourself is: "what am I going to do about it?" Are you actively exploring what it is you believe? Or are you floundering and refusing to do anything about it? The latter is the equivalent of sitting on the couch all day long and wondering why you are putting on weight.

If you aren't in some way engaged with your beliefs (for example, in fellowship with other believers) then there comes a point in your life where you wake up and say, "You know, I don't believe in this stuff any more!" The sad thing is that this is often not because of a rigorous examination of the claims of Christianity, it's simply that the person in question has built a life around something else.

As for the earthquake in Haiti, it's a horrible tragedy. And I think most of us struggle to reconcile these type of natural disasters with an all powerful and all loving God. Indeed, it's the problem that theodicy attempts to tackle. You might be interested in reading this article which attempts to address the problem. You might also be interested in listening to this or this talk on your MP3 player.

chozometroid

I think the problem is that you don't read, or at least hear, the Bible. Either way, this means that you don't receive the Word of God. If you believe in God, or at least think there might be a God, perhaps you would want to hear His Word?

The Bible says faith comes by hearing the Word of God. If you want an answer from God, it's in the Bible. Jesus Christ relied on the Bible during His ministry and Satan's temptation, even though He could talk to God Himself. It has every answer.

Philippians 4
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Matthew 4:4
Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Stephentlig

Well, I believe because God gave me the grace to do so, it is a grace given only by him and him alone. Through Sacred scripture and Tradition and the things the saints have heard and seen down through the centuries I ( by his Grace ) beleive.

Suki, where I to go the other way and say I dont beleive, my system of belief would be based on faith too as I cannot prove there isnt a God.

Disasters such as haiti are a great tragedy, but Jesus knows how we feel when we see such Disasters or experience them, he who came and walked upon the same soil as us, laughed with us, cryed with us, he who also suffered at the hands of us, who was scourged by us, and crucified by his own people, even he whilst on his Holy cross said ''my God my God why have you deserted me?'' previous to this as they watched him dying on the cross they all shouted ''he saved others'' they said 'he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down from the cross now and we will believe in him. He puts his trust in God; now let God rescue him if he wants him. For he did say '' I am the Son of God''

doesnt this sound like us? come down and save us Lord and then we'll beleive?

but we know that God did not forsake his only Son, he lifted him up and he received his Crown of Glory and now sits at the right hand of the father. Jesus helps us realise that ( althoug we use the word ) there is no such thing as dying for scripture says ''God is a God of the living, not of the dead''

St.Ignatius of antioch knew that if he were to come to Christ seeking comfort he had certainly come to the wrong address, he who quite knowingly knew he'd be torutured and killed and go through much suffering when asked by the roman emporer to denouce Christ said '' 86 years I have served Christ and he never did me any harm How can I now blaspheme the God who saved me?'' he was then thrown to the lions, but this great saint was lifted up by Christ and received his crown of glory in the kingdom of heaven and although suffered for Christ at the hands of the world was not forsaken he who created the world.

I hope the above is of help.

God bless
your brother in Christ
Stephen

kelly1

Hello Suki, welcome to the forum

suki07 wrote: »

I'm just wondering how do you know that God exists?

I don't know for certain that God exists because God has never revealed Himself to me directly. I think very few people have had an experience which leaves no room for doubt. What I have is a very strong conviction that God exists and that He is good and therefore loves me.

suki07 wrote: »

And I would like to stress, I do not read, nor have read and in all likely hood will not read the Bible.

Why would you not read it? Is some kind of fear holding you back? If I were you, I'd start reading the New Testament Gospel's starting with Luke maybe but only after praying to God for enlightenment. I would hope that after doing so, you will understand the love and mercy which God has for us.

suki07 wrote: »

My faith has been wavering for a good few months now and I feel ready to totally abort and resign myself to the fact that my destiny is in my own hands.

What about your destiny after you die? You can't control that!

suki07 wrote: »

I completely gave up praying a while ago but somehow turned back towards it. I have to admit- the existence or lack of is causing me a lot of stress.

I would see this as a sign that God is calling you.

suki07 wrote: »

I sometimes think I want there to be a God because it's a mean of escapism and it gives me a sense of hope and a sense of purpose. I'lll be honest, I try my best to be a good person, whether there exists a God or not. I do not live my life thinking about Judgement day etc., I worry about this life and I'll worry about the next - if there is one, later. I also pick and choose what I believe in.... certain aspects of my religion I accept and others I refuse.

But what you believe doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. You could be wrong, there could very well be a judgment day for all of us and I certainly believe there will be. But fear shouldn't be the primary motivating factor in turning to God.

suki07 wrote: »

I've been praying to God and saying I may not actually believe.. and maybe my prayers are being answered and maybe I'm ignoring the signs who knows!! But have you anything that really makes you believe? For me, life with God is such a better place... and I'm much happier... but tbh, more often than not I need this belief to help me keep going and often think I'm deluding myself. The more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems.

Have you been influenced by atheists by any chance? Are you being pressurized in any way to conform to popular mentality?

I think you owe it to yourself and God to try to explore the very real possibility that God exists. I and a lot of other Christians here find the idea of God to be quite rational. Sure we have no proof but we see a lot of evidence around us in everyday life.

Personally my decision to follow Christ has made a very radical and positive change to my way of living and my outlook on life. I feel far more at peace with myself and others, despite the new struggles I have going against the tide.

My advice to you would be to read the bible but it's very important that you ask God for understanding or "self-knowledge". The problem is that we humans find it very difficult to look into our hearts and see our faults. We need grace in order to do this. When reading words of Jesus, think how it applies to you and see how you could change e.g by becoming less selfish.

The other thing I'd do is pray for faith, very important.

Also keep in mind that the greatest barrier between us and God is always sin. Reading the bible will help you understand this. God loves us all, no matter how much we sin but He detests sin. Sin is poison to the soul.

God bless you in your journey,
Noel.

liamw

suki07 wrote: »

I also pick and choose what I believe in.... certain aspects of my religion I accept and others I refuse. So basically, sometimes I think God is me - I suppose some sort of deeper understanding with oneself.

It's interesting you say that, because it reminds me of this article.

suki07

thank you for your points. Some of you make very good arguements - LiamW i'll be especially thinking of that article.

I'd just like to respond;

I do not read the Bible, maybe for fear, maybe not. I don't really know the real reason - but I don't want to. I have some friends who do some friends who don't and all I know that for now - it is not for me. I don't like the idea of quoting psalms etc etc to help me live me life. I never studied the Bible in school nor at home, I can't really say it' sbeen part of my culture.

I have a friend who is a very devout Christian and I just can't prescribe to her views.

I would like to emphasise that this is causing me stress! and therefore, by engaging here and in prayer and in mass or whatever the case may be I am trying to find the answers... so I don't agree with the inference that I may not be searching or actively seeking.

I try to be as good a person as I can be most of the time - we're all sinners and I'll never be perfect.. but I don't like the notion being expressed here that because I prescribe to non traditional views that God is disgusted with my soul....

I'd also like to stress that I am very grateful for all that I have and would have often thanked God. Lately however, I just feel totally frustrated with the idea of God and the more I explore - it dawns on me there may not be a God - that God may just be my own inner strength. I have to also stress that the thought of no God is depressing and causes me fear... but the thought of wasting my time ,for want of better words, praying rather than just accepting things and dealing with life as a series of events as it unfolds also frustrates me. DOn't get me wrong, i am a very lucky and grateful person and if there is a God I hope he won't get too mad at me saying this!

liamw

suki07 wrote: »

I'd also like to stress that I am very grateful for all that I have and would have often thanked God. Lately however, I just feel totally frustrated with the idea of God and the more I explore - it dawns on me there may not be a God - that God may just be my own inner strength. I have to also stress that the thought of no God is depressing and causes me fear... but the thought of wasting my time ,for want of better words, praying rather than just accepting things and dealing with life as a series of events as it unfolds also frustrates me. DOn't get me wrong, i am a very lucky and grateful person and if there is a God I hope he won't get too mad at me saying this!

Do you really want to hold on to a set of beliefs just because they are comforting though? Only you can decide that. Stepping away from religion can be a difficult step for many people and I guarantee there are many that share your fear. I suggest you start a thread in the Atheism forum and you'll find many people who used to be in your position.

One thing I will say to you is that giving up religious beliefs is not cold and bleak as you might think. There's something really fulfilling about looking at the world as it really is. That freedom you will feel is something you can never have as a religious person in my opinion. You can look at the universe and evolution and look in wonder at how blind material processes like natural selection created the world as it is today. Looking at the world where us humans are just another species and not special or gifted can be a very humbling experience and give you new perspectives.

chozometroid

liamw wrote: »

One thing I will say to you is that giving up religious beliefs is not cold and bleak as you might think.

Of course it's not cold and bleak. People are fond of the idea of writing their own rules.

There's something really fulfilling about looking at the world as it really is.

There's nothing "fulfilling" about looking at the world without the God who created it, other than making yourself feel more proud about being an intelligent creature who is "in control" of their life.

That freedom you will feel is something you can never have as a religious person in my opinion. You can look at the universe and evolution and look in wonder at how blind material processes like natural selection created the world as it is today. Looking at the world where us humans are just another species and not special or gifted can be a very humbling experience and give you new perspectives.

Beautiful stuff. Realizing there is a God who created the universe and decided to give you life is a bit more humbling, though.

chozometroid

suki07 wrote: »

I do not read the Bible, maybe for fear, maybe not. I don't really know the real reason - but I don't want to.

I think you should find out the real reason why you "don't want to." There is a lot to learn from why you don't want to. If you can get to the bottom of it, you might sort this out.

I try to be as good a person as I can be most of the time - we're all sinners and I'll never be perfect.. but I don't like the notion being expressed here that because I prescribe to non traditional views that God is disgusted with my soul....

None of us are better than you. God loves you and is waiting for you to open up to Him so He can help you live life to it's fullest.

Turtwig

suki07 wrote: »

it dawns on me there may not be a God - that God may just be my own inner strength. I have to also stress that the thought of no God is depressing and causes me fear... but the thought of wasting my time ,for want of better words, praying rather than just accepting things and dealing with life as a series of events as it unfolds also frustrates me.

As LiamW said, I would encourage you to create a thread in A&A. I know where you were, many other A&A's can empathise with you too. It's really your choice on how proceed.

chozometroid wrote: »

There's nothing "fulfilling" about looking at the world without the God who created it, other than making yourself feel more proud about being an intelligent creature who is "in control" of their life.

Actually, for me the realisation dawned on how little control I actually have over my life. It's a humbling experience; pride it most certainly wasn't.

liamw

chozometroid wrote: »

Of course it's not cold and bleak. People are fond of the idea of writing their own rules.

Are you suggesting that human nature is naturally shifted towards non-belief?

There's nothing "fulfilling" about looking at the world without the God who created it, other than making yourself feel more proud about being an intelligent creature who is "in control" of their life.

You really have atheists all figured out don't you.. well it's nice that you justify it that way in your own head. It's nothing to do with being 'in control' for me. You act as if religious people fight against a desire to not believe which is total rubbish.

Beautiful stuff. Realizing there is a God who created the universe and decided to give you life is a bit more humbling, though.

Do you know what the word 'humble' means? How can thinking that you're a special species who has dominion over all others be more humbling than realising you are just another product of evolution. It's the realisation of our insignificance in the universe which is humbling.

Fanny Cradock

Let's keep this on track, folks.

JimiTime

suki07 wrote: »

I'm just wondering how do you know that God exists?

How do I know? We are here. We Love. That would strip it right down to the bare bones I think. Some would say God opens your heart, or chooses to reveal himself to you. I can neither confirm nor deny this, but I can say that for me, everything else is foolishness. There's alot of fancy language, interesting arguements, witty retorts, and obviously intellectual people who disagree, but nothing that even comes close to making me reconsider. Certainly food for thought, but absolutely nothing of any real substance. Thats me anyway.

And I would like to stress, I do not read, nor have read and in all likely hood will not read the Bible.

You don't have to, but my concern in that line is the fact that you seem very 'Can't be @rsed' about it.

My faith has been wavering for a good few months

Faith in what?

I feel ready to totally abort and resign myself to the fact that my destiny is in my own hands. I completely gave up praying a while ago but somehow turned back towards it. I have to admit- the existence or lack of is causing me a lot of stress.

Its your journey. At least you seem to place some degree of importance on the subject, which is more than alot of folk.

I sometimes think I want there to be a God because it's a mean of escapism and it gives me a sense of hope and a sense of purpose.

God is anything but an escape. He's certainly a source of hope and purpose though.

I'lll be honest, I try my best to be a good person, whether there exists a God or not.

Do you really? And good by what standard?

I worry about this life and I'll worry about the next - if there is one, later. I also pick and choose what I believe in.... certain aspects of my religion I accept and others I refuse. So basically, sometimes I think God is me - I suppose some sort of deeper understanding with oneself. Tbh, I'm disallusioned that events such as Haiti etc can happen. And on the other hand, I'm given hope that some ppl can devote their lives to something they are not 100% certain exists - and I think that that is rather beautiful.

I've been praying to God and saying I may not actually believe.. and maybe my prayers are being answered and maybe I'm ignoring the signs who knows!! But have you anything that really makes you believe? For me, life with God is such a better place... and I'm much happier... but tbh, more often than not I need this belief to help me keep going and often think I'm deluding myself. The more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems.

You need to gain some confidence in yourself, from a spiritual perspective. At the moment, you don't know who God is, but you might or might not believe in him. Thats a confusing place to start. You seem emotionally attached to a sense of comfort that you feel religion in some form brings. Seek truth, not comfort, or consensus. If you can put up with the constant in-fighting, the folk on here are usually on hand with a variety of answers. You just need to be discerning.

I hope that this all doesn't come accross too patronising.

I would recommend reading 'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis.

suki07

[QUOTE=



You don't have to, but my concern in that line is the fact that you seem very 'Can't be @rsed' about it.



Faith in what?





Do you really? And good by what standard?


You need to gain some confidence in yourself, from a spiritual perspective. At the moment, you don't know who God is, but you might or might not believe in him. Thats a confusing place to start. You seem emotionally attached to a sense of comfort that you feel religion in some form brings. Seek truth, not comfort, or consensus. If you can put up with the constant in-fighting, the folk on here are usually on hand with a variety of answers. You just need to be discerning.

I hope that this all doesn't come accross too patronising.

I would recommend reading 'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis.[/QUOTE]


Thanks to all of you for your replies. I apologies for the delay in replying. You all make valid points and I think for the moment I'll just relax about it - I don't have to decide anything today.

I think Jim that you are right though - religion/ or faith rather should be about truth and not about comfort. So this is something I should reflect on really.

As for not being arsed to read the bible - no that's not it. I'll consider all that has been said about it and maybe I will start to read it, maybe now, maybe later. (I just have never felt a need or wanted to read it.) but anyway... we'll move on from that point now.

I just want to say thanks though - at least I know some people have felt like this before. I always used to believe and never question God - I might just be a bit late on the boat in questioning Him - but it's probably a healthy thing! thanks for your views and suggestions everyone.

starchild27

Lately however, I just feel totally frustrated with the idea of God and the more I explore - it dawns on me there may not be a God - that God may just be my own inner strength. I have to also stress that the thought of no God is depressing and causes me fear... but the thought of wasting my time ,for want of better words, praying rather than just accepting things and dealing with life as a series of events as it unfolds also frustrates me.

Hi suki, reading what you have said above there I just felt compelled to respond. Its been a number of years since I have believed in any sort of deity but I can still painfully remember exactly the way you are feeling now. I struggled with my beliefs or rather lack of beliefs in just the same ways as you have described here. Constantly battling to try to fit god into the equation somehow until I could twist reality no longer.

I felt close to madness just trying to make sense of it all - the pain and suffering in the world, the very idea that evil exists at gods will - was it all some kind of test? The truth is that Epicurus was right. What sort of a being can idly sit back and watch as his evil drama unfolds

Letting go of god was easily the best decision of my life - no more frustration no more anger. I can still remember the exact moment I let go and it was like a gigantic weight off my shoulders. God wasnt to blame for all the pain and misery and suffering in the world any longer because he never existed in the first place (sorry to offend anybody its just my personal view)

And from day that on, whenever something troubling happened in my life I didnt feel instantly guilty for having done something displeasing to my all-seeing father and pray and ask for his help. Instead of questioning the reasons why something had happened I began to look for solutions and there was a sense of liberation in the knowledge that I was the maker of my own destiny, I felt finally free

Sorry for such a long ramble there, I hope that may have been helpful to you in some small way. I wish you happiness in whatever you decide

kelly1

suki07 wrote: »

I think Jim that you are right though - religion/ or faith rather should be about truth and not about comfort. So this is something I should reflect on really.

Amen to that!

kelly1

starchild27 wrote: »

Hi suki, reading what you have said above there I just felt compelled to respond.

That'll be the devil on your shoulder compelling you!

Fanny Cradock

suki07 wrote: »

I just want to say thanks though - at least I know some people have felt like this before. I always used to believe and never question God - I might just be a bit late on the boat in questioning Him - but it's probably a healthy thing! thanks for your views and suggestions everyone.

Check out those talks if you get a chance. I think you will find them of interest, as they broadly address your situation. Many people - theists, atheists and agnostics - will have found themselves in your position at one stage or another, so you are not alone. I would consider myself to be one such example. Still, while it is good to ask questions, I would caution you not to be too selective in how you pursue this.

Fanny Cradock

starchild27 wrote: »

I felt close to madness just trying to make sense of it all - the pain and suffering in the world, the very idea that evil exists at gods will - was it all some kind of test? The truth is that Epicurus was right. What sort of a being can idly sit back and watch as his evil drama unfolds

And from day that on, whenever something troubling happened in my life I didnt feel instantly guilty for having done something displeasing to my all-seeing father and pray and ask for his help. Instead of questioning the reasons why something had happened I began to look for solutions and there was a sense of liberation in the knowledge that I was the maker of my own destiny, I felt finally free

Sorry for such a long ramble there, I hope that may have been helpful to you in some small way. I wish you happiness in whatever you decide

It seems that you never fully understood the thing you rejected. I certainly don't recognise the God you mention. But I guess if I considered that there was such a malevolent deity delighting in the misery of his creations then I guess rejecting him for the alternative "**** happens" would be a release.

Turtwig

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It seems that you never fully understood the thing you rejected. I certainly don't recognise the God you mention. But I guess if I considered that there was such a malevolent deity delighting in the misery of his creations then I guess rejecting him for the alternative "**** happens" would be a release.

Well, isn't it a contingency of God that you can't have good without evil. I mean if He takes away the opportunity for suffering then He takes away our free will. (This little doozy again.:)) For the Christian God you need a world to exist that has some suffering, misery and pain for many of inhabitants. I also believe that theologians have argued rather bizarrely, imo, that in a world full of maximum suffering it would be possible for greatest number of people to accept God into their lives. I realise that last bit is dubious, but I'm pretty sure that what Catholic theologians have taught.

God is one of righteousness,mercy and love, but suffering is also necessary part of His creation so to speak.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

For the Christian God you need a world to exist that has some suffering, misery and pain for many of inhabitants.

We're getting way off topic - but, no, God doesn't need a world to exist at all. Equally, He could have created worlds (and just looking at the solar system appears to have done so) without any life at all - so no suffering, misery or pain there.

starchild27

That'll be the devil on your shoulder compelling you!

No rather i felt compelled to share my own similar experience, you know, empathy and all that, its not a feeling specially reserved for people of the book. I would have very much liked to have had someone to talk to at that time who understood exactly what I was going through.