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Mickelson v McCarron

  • 01-02-2010 4:38pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭


    It would appear McCarron may have bit off more than he could chew regarding his cheating comments and Mickelson’s use of the Ping Wedges. A day in court which he has no hope of winning and also a fine by the PGA Tour for his inappropriate use of words and his lack of understanding of the rules that govern the clubs and ruling of them in question

    Mickelson’s words:

    "We all have our opinions on the matter, but a line was crossed and I just was publicly slandered. And because of that, I'll have to let other people handle that."
    "Again, everybody has their opinions and so forth, and it's healthy to talk about it. But when you cross that line and slander someone publicly, that's when the tour needs to step in – or someone else”

    Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/lawrence-donegan-golf-blog/2010/jan/31/golf-phil-mickelson-cheating-lawrence-donegan

    http://www.pgatour.com/2010/tournaments/r004/01/30/mickelson.ap/index.html


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    Westwood has joined in saying that he is not so much breaking the rules as bending them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    McCarron, I'm sure, is the same as all professional golfers who use the rules to their benefit where possible. I'm struggling to cite an exact example to back up my point. Perhaps, Tiger, when all those spectators helped move a "loose impediment", that is a huge rock during the US Open(I think).

    Was that really in the spirit of the game?

    Nobody called Tiger a cheat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭Myksyk


    Can't understand it myself. The rules are the rules. The wedges are allowed. No-one has to like the rule, they're allowed. Players strech the application of the rules but always within the legal limits ... like when Woods got the gallery to move a boulder from in front of his ball because technically it was a 'moveable' (if you have ten people to hand) obstruction. Didn't see many calls about cheating or 'not in the spirit of the game'. It's even clearer with these wedges it seems to me. If players are unhappy they shouldn't be hassling the other players who are working within the rules but hassling the PGA for a change to the rule itself.

    PS Hah, sorry stumpy, i was obviously writing mine as you were posting yours. Great minds and all that!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Myksyk wrote: »
    Great minds and all that!!

    Great minds, really great minds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭Myksyk


    ... and you are right, it was a 'loose impediment'!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    OK so Phil is not breaking any rules. He is merely using a loophole in the rules to play what have been deemed illegal (square grooves) by way of a lawsuit taken by ping against the USPGA in 1990.
    And this is in the spirit of the game. If anyone thinks it is fire on, but me I think he has made a bad call to use them.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I agree that they are within the rules but what's with Mickleson saying that he doesn't know if they are better (spin more) than his current 2010 wedge... if he doesn't think that they are better then why play them unless there is another motive driving him (which of course there is).

    Have to say, watched a little of the golf on Sunday (sky offered me movies and sports for 20 a month extra for 3 months to get those packages back) and saw Robert Allenby overshoot the green on the 14th from the rough... he had 160 or so to the flag and flew it into the hazard behind the green. A serious mistake considering he was probably trying to carry it 150 and it carried maybe 180+ so the new grooves are obviously making a big difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    It's an interesting one alright.
    In fairness, you can't call him a cheat because he's not breaking the rules. Furthermore, since golf is his livelihood, you can't blame him for making use of equipment he feels will give him an advantage.

    Having said all that, I feel he is likely to benefit more than others. I'd say the main reason other players aren't doing the same thing has little to do with integrity (Westwood aside) and something to do with club contracts; no doubt Phil will have a clause with Callaway that allows him to use whatever wedges, driver and putter he likes at any time (probably only the irons he is obliged to play). A lot of players outside of the top 50-100 in the world won't have that option as they will be under full club contracts, which means they wouldn't be able to put the eye 2 into play even if they did manage to get hold of one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭Myksyk


    Don't get me wrong. I think it is a stupid rule. But if it's there then the players can decide to use it to their advantage.

    On reflection, I think there is a very valid argument for this particular rule not being in the spirit of the game insofar as the USGA do not include it in the rules voluntarily. Their hand was forced by legal argument and it is clear that they would not have it in the rulebook if left to themselves. Now, this is NOT the way for the rules of golf to be decided. In that context, it may be perfectly valid for players to shun the rule as anti-golf (and pro-big business if you like), and perhaps by extension to criticise players who use the rule when it has been so forcefully shoved into the golfing rulebook.

    Hmm, I'm now officially 'on the fence' and open to being pushed either way!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    OK myksyk, my tuppence worth, Golf is a game of integrity and in using a loophole to play what effectively is an illegal club PM is losing his IMO.
    As I previously said he is not breaking the rules but in using them is losing integrity.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭Russman


    It is a tricky one alright, but personally I think its not in the spirit of the rules. Certainly no rule is being broken and he's entitled to use the clubs but it does seem strange that clubs that were banned and seemingly consigned to the dustbin of history are now revived.
    I would have thought with Phil's celebrated short game he'd have been at an advantage using the new clubs......one to ponder maybe.

    McCarron probably shouldn't have used the word cheat as its definitely not but it definitely is "something".......exactly what to call it I'm not sure. I don't for a minute buy the argument that its all fine and shouldn't be an issue because I think the top players have a duty to the wider game of golf rather than their wallets (in my humble opinion :)).

    Perhaps the tour players should come to a "gentleman's agreement" not to use the older clubs..........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    I wonder will Padraig be turning up with a couple of the Ping wedges?

    If so will we display our disappointment with him for his failure to adhere to the spirit of the game? Or will we applaud his professionalism in gaining whatever advantages he can because victory is all that matters to a professional sports person?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    I wonder will Padraig be turning up with a couple of the Ping wedges?

    If so will we display our disappointment with him for his failure to adhere to the spirit of the game? Or will we applaud his professionalism in gaining whatever advantages he can because victory is all that matters to a professional sports person?

    Stumpy,

    We are discussing something that has actually taken place here, not some hypothetical situation in the future. I hope PH would not use them.

    Integrity is something he has in abundance and if he did resort to using them my opinion of him would go down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    thegen wrote: »
    Stumpy,

    We are discussing something that has actually taken place here, not some hypothetical situation in the future. I hope PH would not use them.

    Integrity is something he has in abundance and if he did resort to using them my opinion of him would go down.

    The only reason for the hypothetical situation was just to see if opinions would change if someone we all support and follow started using the wedges.

    The spirit of the game is obviously very important, however, we are talking about an elite group of sports professionals. People who's careers depends on success. Perhaps the huge money available overpowers the spirit of the game.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    The only reason for the hypothetical situation was just to see if opinions would change if someone we all support and follow started using the wedges.

    The spirit of the game is obviously very important, however, we are talking about an elite group of sports professionals. People who's careers depends on success. Perhaps the huge money available overpowers the spirit of the game.

    So are we in agreement that what he is doing is not in the spirit of the game then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 496 ✭✭Jasonw


    It's an interesting one alright.

    More interesting come the ryder cup. The ping I2 wedges AFAIK are legal for ' all pga tour sanctioned events' which would include -outside the US and mexico- the ryder cup and most probably the open too.

    Will we have a situation where the Americans are allowed to use them but the europeans aren't?

    Something tells me that this will all be resolved at the tour players meeting tomorrow. It's clear that the PGA need to resolve this somehow and not leave it develop into something that's going to dominate discussions for every event for the next 6 months.

    Personally I'm sick of hearing commentators rabbit on about grooves this and that. It's nearly as irritating as them fawning over the beauty of Rory's swing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭Russman


    We could be back to a situation similar to when Taylor Made brought out the 300 Series drivers a few years ago and the "R" version was legal in the US but not in R&A governed areas.

    AFAIK The Open is sanctioned by the R&A and so the wedges would not be allowed - I'm open to correction though. And I think the Ryder Cup is owned by the respective PGAs as opposed to the PGA Tours (or vice versa) and would probably be governed by the rules applying in the host venue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 496 ✭✭Jasonw


    is the open not co-sanctioned then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭Russman


    I'm not 100% sure but I don't think so. If I remember correctly its not even strictly a true European Tour event - I think it has a different status as its the R&A's own championship.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I wonder will Padraig be turning up with a couple of the Ping wedges?

    If so will we display our disappointment with him for his failure to adhere to the spirit of the game? Or will we applaud his professionalism in gaining whatever advantages he can because victory is all that matters to a professional sports person?

    He's been trying them out anyway!
    http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2010/2/2/harrington-to-play-ping-wedge.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭mag


    another source :

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/lawrence-donegan-golf-blog/2010/feb/02/golf-padraig-harrington

    ph used to use the eye2 beryllium sw as a youngster


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    golfers are always using rules to their advantage when they can. Changing their stance so that a heal might touch a cart path or saying an immovable obstruction is in thier line, just because it is possible to take that route to the green. He should not have been called a cheat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    He is not a cheat becuase he has not broken a law

    ..however....Golf is full of things that could be classed as "spirit of the game" rather than clear rules....

    certainly I can see why people would be upset with the loophole


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭BunkerMentality


    http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=4876921&campaign=rss&source=GOLFHeadlines

    Heh, McCarron didn't call Mickelson a cheater, he just said it's cheating to use the wedges and he's appalled that Mickelson is using one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    thegen wrote: »
    So are we in agreement that what he is doing is not in the spirit of the game then?

    Its a tricky one, but no, its not really in the spirit of the game.

    However, they are professional sports persons. I think theirs a huge conflict there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    Its a tricky one, but no, its not really in the spirit of the game.

    However, they are professional sports persons. I think theirs a huge conflict there.

    No I don't see it as tricky. He has not broken any rule, but he has done a lot of damage to his image as a sportsman.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    thegen wrote: »
    No I don't see it as tricky. He has not broken any rule, but he has done a lot of damage to his image as a sportsman.

    Perhaps, its up to the PGA to resolve it quickly.

    I won't however view any professional player who uses the wedges any differently. We see every player using the rules to their benefit at every tournament.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    Am I wrong in thinking the wedges he is using are in fact illegal and it is just a loophole allowing him to use them or have I read this completely wrong?


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    They would be illegal if it weren't for an old lawsuit. The type of grooves on them are illegal to use now (but not on these particular old pings due to the lawsuit).
    Because of the lawsuit and because they are old pings, they are legal. They banned these type of grooves but can't ban the old pings which is where the spirit of the rules thing comes from.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭Myksyk


    Harrington is considering his options on the matter.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I find it a little bit funny that without being able to spin the ball so much, they're actually playing a lot more like us amateurs do every week, with our less than perfect contact :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭Blunder


    http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12176_5915067,00.html

    Apology from McCarron. I wonder does his last statement give, perhaps, a motive for his comments last week.....Jealousy due to the fact his contract prevents him from using clubs other than Taylormade!:D


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    http://www.pgatour.com/2010/tournaments/r007/02/03/mickelson_grooves/index.html

    LOS ANGELES -- Phil Mickelson said Wednesday that he will take the controversial Ping Eye2 wedge out of his bag for this week's Northern Trust Open, but he threatened to use it again if the loophole involving the new grooves regulation isn't closed.

    "Out of respect for (the players), I do not want to have an advantage over anybody, whether it's perceived or actual," Mickelson said. "So this week, I won't be playing that wedge. My point has been made."

    Last week at the Farmers Insurance Open, Mickelson played with the pre-1990 Ping Eye2 wedge that remains legal to use despite the USGA's regulation rolling back to V grooves. The usage of that club by the world's No. 2-ranked player brought the controversy to the forefront.

    Mickelson has been adamant about his dislike of the new USGA regulation, as well as the loophole that exists due to a court ruling in 1990. That's why he's hoping that a solution can be found soon among golf's governing bodies.

    Mickelson said if the governing bodies cannot fix the loophole, then he will "put the wedge back into play." He did not provide a timetable of when that might happen.

    Mickelson also said that he has accepted the apology of fellow pro Scott McCarron, who said prior to last week's event that Mickelson's use of the Ping Eye2 wedge was "cheating."

    McCarron apologized personally to Mickelson on Tuesday.

    "We all make mistakes," Mickelson said. "We all say things we wish we could take back. I've done it a bunch in my career. The fact is, it's not easy to come up and face that person ... I appreciate him being a big enough man to do that."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Licksy wrote: »
    Mickelson also said that he has accepted the apology of fellow pro Scott McCarron, who said prior to last week's event that Mickelson's use of the Ping Eye2 wedge was "cheating."

    McCarron apologized personally to Mickelson on Tuesday.

    "We all make mistakes," Mickelson said. "We all say things we wish we could take back. I've done it a bunch in my career. The fact is, it's not easy to come up and face that person ... I appreciate him being a big enough man to do that."

    Thats one of the most patronising apology acceptances I've ever heard. Its little wonder he's so disliked on tour.


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