Dempsey Announces NRA Programme, No New Roads in 2010

Sponge Bob

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=170

Do remember that many of these schemes were ging to to CPO in 2007 2008 and 2009 so 'progressing' to CPO means nothing.

Cork - Midleton anybody ???

Not one single road goes to tender and construction for the first time ever although the PPP programme continues at its glacial pace. The Casteisland bypass belatedly went to construction in 2009 but that was because the tendering had taken place.

Dempsey also announced that Nenagh Limerick will be complete in 2010, ho ho ho

Seven projects are moving forward into the Compulsory Purchase Order stage in 2010 and the projects are:

q N4 The Downs Grade Seperation

q N14/N15 Link to Strabane

q M20 Cork to Limerick

q N21 Adare Bypass

q N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton

q N30 Clonroche to New Ross

q N52 Carrickbridge to Dalystown.

Sponge Bob

Just so ye know what "Progressing" to CPO means. Here is the 2007 List

RED = Not Tendered
BLUE = Tendered but NOT Under Construction
GREEN = Under Construction

BLACK = BUILT AND OPEN

Appendix 4 Projects Proceeding to CPO / EIS during 2007

Route Region Scheme Road Type Length Km

N4 BMW Carrick on Shannon Bypass 2+1 Carriageway 6
N5 BMW Longford Bypass Single Carriageway 2.6
N7 S&E Newlands Cross Interchange
N11 S&E Enniscorthy Bypass Dual Carriageway 20
N15 BMW Ballybofey / Stranorlar Bypass Dual Carriageway 16
N17 BMW Galway / Tuam Dual Carriageway 22
N22 S&E Tralee Bypass / Tralee / Bealagrellagh Single Carriageway 11
N22 S&E Ballyvourney to Macroom Single Carriageway 42
N25 S&E New Ross Bypass Dual Carriageway 16
N25 S&E Carrigtwohill to Middleton Dual Carriageway 4.5
N26 BMW Ballina / Bohola Phase 2 Single Carriageway 18
N56 BMW Mountcharles to Inver Single Carriageway 4.9
N87 BMW Ballyconnell Inner Relief Road Single Carriageway 1.2

Total 163.2 kms

Chris_5339762

Nothing more than what we expected I guess. Interesting to see that the M20 is heading to CPO/EIS, I thought it was long fingered because the gov wouldnt pay the CPOs for the substantial 82km of motorway?

The Word Is Bor

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Nothing more than what we expected I guess. Interesting to see that the M20 is heading to CPO/EIS, I thought it was long fingered because the gov wouldnt pay the CPOs for the substantial 82km of motorway?

CPO's lapse after 5 years so if they publish this year they have until 2015 to start construction.

Zoney

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

CPO's lapse after 5 years so if they publish this year they have until 2015 to start construction.

In fairness I'd be happy at this stage with even that happening for the M20 - I'd be worried about it being downgraded to some poor quality D2 if it gets revisited rather than merely postponed a bit.

L1011

Carrigtwohill-Midleton and The Downs seperation shouldn't require much land to be CPOed anyway, surely? Almost certain the Downs one isn't even being built to motorway standard.

Chris_5339762

Carrig - Midleton is surprisingly big.. although its mostly online the distributer lanes will need a good few CPOs of quite nice houses.

Thats the poster scheme for the south by the way. Its not going to happen anytime soon. They've blocked up the median crossings for now and theres absolutely no way it should go ahead until the Sarsfield/Bandon roundabouts are done. They are ready to go 100% and just need that precious funding.

alentejo

Can believe that Newlands Cross is delayed

Tech3

alentejo wrote: »

Can believe that Newlands Cross is delayed

It's not delayed. It's due to start construction in 2011 assuming it gets funded through the PPP mechanism.

Sponge Bob

Zoney wrote: »

In fairness I'd be happy at this stage with even that happening for the M20

We KNOW from listening to the crowing of the Greens in October that 94 projects were basically cancelled and that no funding would be forthcoming.

Neither Dempsey nor the Greens had the manners to tell anybody which 94 projects these were..... not that I ever expect any manners from either Dempsey or the Greens

Today was the first time that anybody could make a decent stab at finding out what projects were on that list and to be honest I feared for the N20 and N21 Adare projects both until the CPO list was published.

I reckon that of the 2007 CPO List the ones shown in BOLD have now been cancelled in the negotiations between Dempsey and the Greens back in October. The others are at CPO ( again ) or at Tender.

Appendix 4 Projects Proceeding to CPO / EIS during 2007

Route Region Scheme Road Type Length Km

N4 BMW Carrick on Shannon Bypass 2+1 Carriageway 6
N5 BMW Longford Bypass Single Carriageway 2.6
N7 S&E Newlands Cross Interchange
N11 S&E Enniscorthy Bypass Dual Carriageway 20
N15 BMW Ballybofey / Stranorlar Bypass Dual Carriageway 16
N17 BMW Galway / Tuam Dual Carriageway 22
N22 S&E Tralee Bypass / Tralee / Bealagrellagh Single Carriageway 11
N22 S&E Ballyvourney to Macroom Single Carriageway 42
N25 S&E New Ross Bypass Dual Carriageway 16
N25 S&E Carrigtwohill to Middleton Dual Carriageway 4.5
N26 BMW Ballina / Bohola Phase 2 Single Carriageway 18
N56 BMW Mountcharles to Inver Single Carriageway 4.9
N87 BMW Ballyconnell Inner Relief Road Single Carriageway 1.2

imangry29

Promised construction under NDP 2000-2006, N22 Ballyvourney to Macoom finally had its CPO and EIS published in 2009 http://www.corkrdo.ie/ There should have been movement on this in 2010. I know the M20 and N17 may be busier but it just SICKENS me how Tralee/Killarney (supposed hub) and Cork (gateway) are yet again ignored and left "connected" with an unsafe, narrow, twisted road which in many parts can only fit a single truck in width. If you have not driven Kerry/Cork or Cork/Kerry via Ballyvourney-Macroom (the main route), then hold off on a reply. I'm off to another thread to have my rant on the N22. AAAGGGHHH!!!!!

Road building will never be cheaper than in 2010. Now is the time to at least start the longer road projects >20km. Have they even done the maths on economies of scale here???

Sponge Bob

imangry29 wrote: »

Have they even done the maths on economies of scale here???

Dempsey has. So don't tell us about it,tell Dempsey.

Also ask him why the N52 scheme near his back gate is more important ??

Carawaystick

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

CPO's lapse after 5 years so if they publish this year they have until 2015 to start construction.

CPO's only Purchase the land. as long as this happens there can be no construction fro a while - See the southern Gap between M11's

fuelinjection

I think we have a good motorway network for the size of our country.
Of course if you live in Donegal or Monaghan then its crap. But the major routes are fine otherwise.

I would be more worried about the B-roads around the country after the damage from the ice and floods, some of them are in a bad way and there is no money to pay for them coming anytime soon.

Carawaystick

fuelinjection wrote: »

But the major routes are fine otherwise.

The N20 is not "fine otherwise"

fuelinjection wrote: »

I would be more worried about the B-roads around the country.

There's no B roads here, National, Regional and Local roads only.

Chris_5339762

The M20 is the big missing gap in the network, or will be once the interurbans are done. Other than that its just a bit of 2+2, a few bypasses and short DC sections, and a mountain of single carriageway.

Sponge Bob

OK . Lets look at the funny business that one always expects from Dempsey. In December 2010 Dempsey said:

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=149

€1.31 billion for national roads including €37.5 million for road safety

Right, that leaves €1.27bn for roads.



Improvement ( New Roads and Realignments Mainly)
.

Carlow County Council 823,400
Cavan County Council 6,707,610
Clare County Council 3,568,000
Cork City Council 302,500
Cork County Council 33,705,420
Donegal County Council 10,242,300
Dublin City Council 38,045,000
Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council 1,575,000
Fingal County Council 750,000
Galway City Council 292,000
Galway County Council 176,777,000
Kerry County Council 17,058,500
Kildare County Council 44,105,567
Kilkenny County Council 79,424,461
Laois County Council 76,425,000
Leitrim County Council 5,051,000
Limerick City Council 126,000
Limerick County Council 42,456,000
Longford County Council 2,419,000
Louth County Council 5,391,000
Mayo County Council 9,836,134
Meath County Council 31,851,000
Monaghan County Council 6,645,567
North Tipperary County Council 3,126,000
Offaly County Council 5,974,000
Roscommon County Council 4,838,000
Sligo County Council 4,108,701
South Dublin County Council 41,312,000
South Tipperary County Council 13,433,000
Waterford City Council 8,210,000
Waterford County Council 1,240,000
Westmeath County Council 20,005,701
Wexford County Council 20,831,352
Wicklow County Council 12,006,000

TOTAL €729m + another €34m Maintenance = €763m



The maintenance budget is only €34m for the entire national road network and the motorways, ugggh

The N18 Project is to finish this year judging from the Galway allocation) .


But €1.27bn MINUS €763m = €510m. Where has the other €510m for roads disappeared off to Dempsey. It is surely not :eek: all earmarked for PPP payments is it :eek:

Even the €728m is suspect. In the case of Mayo and Louth ( see below) significant sums are being spend on building roads that opened YEARS ago.

I take it this is CPO payment for land rolling over and being reannounced by Dempsey year after year after year, it certainly ain't new money

To the ground.

A lot of that money has been diverted into planning west of Galway. The Moycullen Bypass was designed 10 years ago. It was REVIEWED in 2009 at a cost of €300k and now it is back in planning AGAIN at a cost of €900k.

As Bertie would always say, "Millions spent and **** all done. Gift"

Interestingly there are 2 special projects which are to plan a rural standard road out to Clifden from Oughterard and another Tralee to Dingle.

More here on Galwaynews, Dempsey did not mention these

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/10425

Down in Kerry they pointed out that grittting cost €2m this winter and they only get €1.8m for the entir eyear to maintain National Roads

http://www.kerryman.ie/news/outlook-is-bleak-for-improving-county-roads-2045557.html

In Mayo they got €9.8m BUT one sixth of that is for a road opened in 2007 and one fifth for planning the big road to Westport .

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8794:roads-funding-will-only-act-as-a-holding-operation&catid=23&Itemid=46

In Louth 25% of the money is for a road that opened 2 years ago :eek:

http://www.argus.ie/news/euro6m-funding-for-louth-roads-2046336.html

In Cavan almost half the money is for planning a bypass of Belturbet.

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2010/02/03/3994567-836475m-of-roads-projects/

The Word Is Bor

Not sure if it applies here but it's worth remembering that just because a road opens it doesn't mean that the project is finished.

The sideroads and accommodation works are generally the last thing to be completed, so payments would be due for these.

Retention is generally released 1 year after the certificate of practical completion is issued or the maintenance period ceases. Again this triggers more payments from the NRA/local authority.

Also the final account for schemes might not be closed out for many months/years with the possibility of conciliation/arbitration. So monies might be due many years after a scheme has opened.

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

OK . Lets look at the funny business that one always expects from Dempsey. In December 2010 Dempsey said:

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=149



Right, that leaves €1.27bn for roads.



Improvement ( New Roads and Realignments Mainly)
.

Carlow County Council 823,400
Cavan County Council 6,707,610
Clare County Council 3,568,000
Cork City Council 302,500
Cork County Council 33,705,420
Donegal County Council 10,242,300
Dublin City Council 38,045,000
Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council 1,575,000
Fingal County Council 750,000
Galway City Council 292,000
Galway County Council 176,777,000
Kerry County Council 17,058,500
Kildare County Council 44,105,567
Kilkenny County Council 79,424,461
Laois County Council 76,425,000
Leitrim County Council 5,051,000
Limerick City Council 126,000
Limerick County Council 42,456,000
Longford County Council 2,419,000
Louth County Council 5,391,000
Mayo County Council 9,836,134
Meath County Council 31,851,000
Monaghan County Council 6,645,567
North Tipperary County Council 3,126,000
Offaly County Council 5,974,000
Roscommon County Council 4,838,000
Sligo County Council 4,108,701
South Dublin County Council 41,312,000
South Tipperary County Council 13,433,000
Waterford City Council 8,210,000
Waterford County Council 1,240,000
Westmeath County Council 20,005,701
Wexford County Council 20,831,352
Wicklow County Council 12,006,000

TOTAL €729m + another €34m Maintenance = €763m



The maintenance budget is only €34m for the entire national road network and the motorways, ugggh

The N18 Project is to finish this year judging from the Galway allocation) .


But €1.27bn MINUS €763m = €510m. Where has the other €510m for roads disappeared off to Dempsey. It is surely not :eek: all earmarked for PPP payments is it :eek:

Even the €728m is suspect. In the case of Mayo and Louth ( see below) significant sums are being spend on building roads that opened YEARS ago.

I take it this is CPO payment for land rolling over and being reannounced by Dempsey year after year after year, it certainly ain't new money

To the ground.

A lot of that money has been diverted into planning west of Galway. The Moycullen Bypass was designed 10 years ago. It was REVIEWED in 2009 at a cost of €300k and now it is back in planning AGAIN at a cost of €900k.

As Bertie would always say, "Millions spent and **** all done. Gift"

Interestingly there are 2 special projects which are to plan a rural standard road out to Clifden from Oughterard and another Tralee to Dingle.

More here on Galwaynews, Dempsey did not mention these

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/10425

Down in Kerry they pointed out that grittting cost €2m this winter and they only get €1.8m for the entir eyear to maintain National Roads

http://www.kerryman.ie/news/outlook-is-bleak-for-improving-county-roads-2045557.html

In Mayo they got €9.8m BUT one sixth of that is for a road opened in 2007 and one fifth for planning the big road to Westport .

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8794:roads-funding-will-only-act-as-a-holding-operation&catid=23&Itemid=46

In Louth 25% of the money is for a road that opened 2 years ago :eek:

http://www.argus.ie/news/euro6m-funding-for-louth-roads-2046336.html

In Cavan almost half the money is for planning a bypass of Belturbet.

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2010/02/03/3994567-836475m-of-roads-projects/

Limerick city council got feck all, considering thats it's population has jumped 8000 this year since Caherdavin was brought into the city boundary. Castletroy is next up. Why has Limerick city council got very little again this year. The city council is so cash strapped again.:rolleyes:

Chris_5339762

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A lot of that money has been diverted into planning west of Galway. The Moycullen Bypass was designed 10 years ago. It was REVIEWED in 2009 at a cost of €300k and now it is back in planning AGAIN at a cost of €900k.

Add the N59 Maam Cross to Oughterard scheme which has appeared from absolutely nowhere -

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB140803

Sponge Bob

Limerick got €292,000 for Improvement and €338,900 for maintenance
Galway got €126,000 for Improvement and €252,900 for maintenance

Waterford got €0 for maintenance.

None have large N road networks you may have noticed and Limerick should have none by this time next year bar maybe 1km of the N69 in the Docks and 1km of N24

However Waterford City got €8m for N Road Improvements , damned if I know why Waterford has no national roads since last October which makes the €8m allocation rather intruiging.:D

Bards

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Limerick got €292,000 for Improvement and €338,900 for maintenance
Galway got €126,000 for Improvement and €252,900 for maintenance

Waterford got €0 for maintenance.

None have large N road networks you may have noticed and Limerick should have none by this time next year bar maybe 1km of the N69 in the Docks and 1km of N24

However Waterford City got €8m for N Road Improvements , damned if I know why Waterford has no national roads since last October which makes the €8m allocation rather intruiging.:D

Currently the Tramore road between the Inner Ring Road and it's junction with the Outer Ring Road is undergoing re-alignment (it is being raised) to prevent it from flooding hence the allocation

examples

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhorgan/4131085053/

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=946&Itemid=10172&ed=72

http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2006/12/08/story24139.asp

http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2001/02/19/story6339.asp

a 1960 dail debate about this section of roadway http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0185/D.0185.196011300067.html

Sponge Bob

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

Not sure if it applies here but it's worth remembering that just because a road opens it doesn't mean that the project is finished.

I only highlighted projects that opened in 2007 and are still dragging on.

N1 Dundalk - Newry and N5 Charlestown Bypass BOTH opened in 2007 and account for 20% of the National Road Improvement budgets in Mayo and Louth in 2010. Naturally no new roads are being built.

I am more interested in how Dempsey disappeared €0.5bn since christmas

I know PPP and MSA payments are due out of that lot but I reckon most of it is the next cutback in the next emergency budget.

Shall we say €300m will be cut back then ???

Sponge Bob

Bards wrote: »

Currently the Tramore road between the Inner Ring Road and it's junction with the Outer Ring Road is undergoing re-alignment (it is being raised) to prevent it from flooding hence the allocation

It is a regional road, so no.

Has anybody found out what Dempsey did with the bloody half billion yet ?????

fricatus

Sponge Bob wrote: »

However Waterford City got €8m for N Road Improvements , damned if I know why Waterford has no national roads since last October which makes the €8m allocation rather intruiging.:D

That's incorrect. The N25 city bypass runs through the city council area.

Seems like a lot though... maybe it's because the city council was the lead authority on the N25 bypass and there are still realignments to be carried out? Or does the budget include regional roads? As Bards said, the Tramore Road is being done at present.

Sponge Bob

fricatus wrote: »

That's incorrect. The N25 city bypass runs through the city council area.

That explains it. €8m allocated for a road that is already built.

fricatus

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That explains it. €8m allocated for a road that is already built.

There's no need for the attitude, Sponge Bob. I'm trying to help the discussion along by offering what I think are possible and plausible explanations.

I don't know any better than you do why that figure is as high as it is, but they're not shovelling the money into a hole, so it must be going somewhere. If it is for national roads, then it's perfectly possible that there is still work going on after the opening of the WCB (are they cleaning and landscaping the bridge compound for example? Maybe someone could offer some explanation).

Sponge Bob

fricatus wrote: »

they're not shovelling the money into a hole, so it must be going somewhere.

The word is bor explained it a few posts back. The N25 is a PPP, it is supposed to 'pay its own way' from tolls , which of course it won't. That is probably a Spanish banking problem not ours.

I find it remarkable that amounts are still being allocated for roads finished years ago. I can therefore predict with some confidence that Waterford will get more money next year.

There are outstanding CPOs on many schemes where disputes on valuation arose.

Therefore it is likely that €200m of these payments will be hanging around the 2012 budget and will not be disbursed in their entirety either....rolling to 2013

dubhthach

Sponge Bob the missing 500million is the amount they will underspend this year. at the end of year they'll pat themselves on the back when they announce that the deficit was 500million less then expected!

They did this every year they were running surpluses, they never reached the allocated budget spend when it came to capital spending during the boom. Of course the result was we had to wait until 2010 for Inter-urbans as oppose to original target of 2006.

Sponge Bob

dubhthach wrote: »

Sponge Bob the missing 500million is the amount they will underspend this year. at the end of year they'll pat themselves on the back when they announce that the deficit was 500million less then expected!

The €510m is the difference between what was announced in December and what the NRA is disbursing to local authorities.

I would say that they will manage to spend at most €100m of the balance on PPP outpayments and on MSAs and a few road signs. The other €400m is probably programmed for cutbacks in the next emergency budget which is due before the summer from my calculations.

All of which means the spend on National roads will come in around €900m-€1000m max this year ....and this is a very busy year.

Some of that spend...eg Waterford Louth and Mayo examples above is for roads that are already built. Some of that will roll over to next year as CPO disputes continue.

The effective spend on roads BEING built will be nearer €600m and €200m will be spent on planning alone. The allocations to local authorities are sent to local media and never EVER published centrally where the likes of us could calculate what they really are

I might get a tame TD to ask for the whole lot in a PQ

cargo

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The €510m is the difference between what was announced in December and what the NRA is disbursing to local authorities.

I would say that they will manage to spend at most €100m of the balance on PPP outpayments and on MSAs and a few road signs. The other €400m is probably programmed for cutbacks in the next emergency budget which is due before the summer from my calculations.

All of which means the spend on National roads will come in around €900m-€1000m max this year ....and this is a very busy year.

Some of that spend...eg Waterford Louth and Mayo examples above is for roads that are already built. Some of that will roll over to next year as CPO disputes continue.

The effective spend on roads BEING built will be nearer €600m and €200m will be spent on planning alone. The allocations to local authorities are sent to local media and never EVER published centrally where the likes of us could calculate what they really are

I might get a tame TD to ask for the whole lot in a PQ

S, if you read the article you linked to from the Louth Argus you'll see the guy quoted as saying that this money will help achieve significant progress on these roads this year

quote:
'I am especially pleased that the Dundalk and Ardee bypasses are to receive funding that will allow a significant amount of work to progress on these projects,' concluded Senator Carroll.

so therefore I would guess that there is actual projects associated with these roads. I know Ardee has been talking about a by-pass for a few years now, not so sure what the Dundalk by-pass is about.