Wedge Controversy

fullstop

Watching the golf earlier, I saw an interview with Scott McCarron in which the interviewer mentioned comments made by McCarron about Mickelson yesterday.

After a bit of searching I found this

Apparently there is a loophole being exploited by a number of players, including Mickelson, that allows players to use Ping Eye 2 wedges manufactured before 1990 even though they have square grooves. What do people make of this? I have seen these wedges in the past and I think they're horrible, square grooves or not. Also I don't think the spin would be near as much as you'd get from vokey spin milled or the likes.

1916

I heard that too, but didn't know the details.

I thought that wedges 'wear' down, so in that case surely very soon they would be useless also??

IITYWYBMAD

1916 wrote: »

I heard that too, but didn't know the details.

I thought that wedges 'wear' down, so in that case surely very soon they would be useless also??

It's perfectly legal to 'maintain' them back to their original state, so wear would not be a problem.

Like the article said, the use of these wedges is legal, but it's definately against the spirit of the game. I guess as Lefty puts such a premium on his wedge play, he was going to try and get as much control out of them as he possibly could.

Par71

"All that matters is it's OK under the rules of golf."


Spot on,

Phil is out there to earn a living he is not doing anything wrong. If it is ok to use these clubs then why not use them. If they are banned they wont be used. But the clubs he has are not banned so whats the big problem here, if scotty boy feels hard done by maybe he should start using them aswel, or is it he just has a sh*t short game anyway.

Stop spitting the dummy out Scott.

charlieIRL

PM isn't the only one using them. The "loophole" was discussed on the golf channel open there recently. One American player (not going to name him as I'm not 100%) was getting wedges sent to him by fans so he could use them.

Russman

Totally agree that if they're legal, they're legal, and 100% can be used. Its the lawmakers that are to blame for creating the situation (and not standing up to the manufacturers in the first place).

Now, here comes the rant.....:D
However the likes of PM and others using them is definitely against the spirit of the rules and my opinion of him has certainly dropped. The whole idea of the rule change was to get a premium back on accuracy and thats what Phil et al should do, learn how to hit the f--king ball reasonably straight off the tee even if it means throttling back to around 280-290 instead of looking for 310 all the time.
Obviously the guys are professionals playing for a living, but they've certainly shown a more mercenary side that could potentially be some bad PR (if there is such a thing) for them.

Ok, time to breathe.....coz it doesn't matter a damn to most of us amateurs anyway but its frustrating to see rules sidestepped in this (perfectly legal) way in golf of all sports. We're not soccer for God's sake, nor are we a courtroon where spirit versus letter of the law should matter. IMO the "all that matters" mantra is not strictly true - they have other responsibilities to the wider game of golf that go beyond the narrow focus of their worlds.

Rant over.

Par71

I dont think bad PR matters to them all that much. The big fat cheque at the end of the day is all they see. It really is a silly case tho, if they are banned they should be banned, all or nothing.

Blunder

charlieIRL wrote: »

PM isn't the only one using them. The "loophole" was discussed on the golf channel open there recently. One American player (not going to name him as I'm not 100%) was getting wedges sent to him by fans so he could use them.

Its John Daly who gets them sent to him by fans. He and other tour players are also buying them on eBay. This has been ongoing since the first tourney of the year. At the end of the day what they are doing is perfectly legal.

As another poster says i cant imagine the performance of the grooves on the pings is better than the modern square grooves however im sure they are better than the V's. Also The grooves cannot be maintained on the clubs AFAIK. They can be reshafted and regriped but I dont think the lie, loft or the groves can be altered so eventually the supply of these clubs will run out.

Par71

Blunder wrote: »

Its John Daly who gets them sent to him by fans. He and other tour players are also buying them on eBay. This has been ongoing since the first tourney of the year. At the end of the day what they are doing is perfectly legal.

As another poster says i cant imagine the performance of the grooves on the pings is better than the modern square grooves however im sure they are better than the V's. Also The grooves cannot be maintained on the clubs AFAIK. They can be reshafted and regriped but I dont think the lie, loft or the groves can be altered so eventually the supply of these clubs will run out.

You can re-groove the wedges, changing the loft and lie would be tricky as they are a cast steel not forged. It can be done but you risk snaping the club at the hosel.

fullstop

Par71 wrote: »

You can re-groove the wedges, changing the loft and lie would be tricky as they are a cast steel not forged. It can be done but you risk snaping the club at the hosel.

I think Blunder is right, only loft/lie as well as shaft/grip can be altered. Mickelson has had his 60 degree bent back to 64. The article below would seem to suggest that grooves cannot be altered.

HONOLULU (AP) — John Daly used a set of wedges Thursday at the Sony Open that have square grooves, even though a new USGA regulation this year requires more of a V-shaped groove.

And those wedges are considered legal.

Daly is using Ping Eye2 wedges - pitching wedge, sand wedge and lob wedge - that he first used at the 1986 U.S. Open when he was a sophomore in college. He stopped using them shortly after winning the 1991 PGA Championship when he signed with a different company.

Dean Wilson also is using a Ping Eye2 wedge that he found in his garage. He's had it since sometime in the 1980s.

Even in this new era of grooves, the old Ping wedges remain legal because of a lawsuit Ping filed against the USGA over square grooves that was settled in 1990. Under the settlement, any Ping Eye2 made before April 1, 1990, remains approved under the Rules of Golf.

"That settlement still takes precedence" over the new regulation, said Dick Rugge, the USGA's senior technical director.

But that's the catch.

If a player wanted the type of wedge Ping made before April 1990, the Phoenix-based company can't reproduce them. If players find them - either on the market or in the garage - Ping can repair shafts or alter the lie or loft, just like any other club.

Still in question is whether clubs that are 20 years old can still be as sharp as grooves from current models. Players often change irons at least every two years, more often with wedges. Pat Perez said he used to change his wedges every four months.

"I might change them every two months with the new ones," he said.

Daly stopped by Ping headquarters on his way to Hawaii and surprised company officials by the number of old wedges he had found. He says he has eight or nine sets - some he kept over the years, others sent to him by friends.

Even so, he is asking Ping for a set of V-shaped grooves that he might use at Torrey Pines.

"A golf course like San Diego, you want V grooves in your wedges because the greens are so soft," he said. "Here, you want square grooves. I'll probably go through the year switching a lot."

Asked how much spin he could get from a wedge he first used a quarter-century ago, Daly said, "These are still in great shape."

Whenever Daly gets a new Ping Eye2 wedge, he calls the company and reads them the serial number. Ping has a catalog of its wedges and can confirm if the wedges were manufactured prior to April 1990.

"Ping said the ones I have are all good to go," Daly said. "I think a lot of guys are going to switch. I know a lot of guys are buying them off eBay."

Daly said he first tried his old wedges when he played in Australia last month.

However, he most likely won't be able to use them at the British Open or anywhere else outside the United States or Mexico because the USGA settlement would not apply.

Wilson said he has had his Ping Eye2 lob wedge since college and didn't use it much, so he believes the grooves are still fresh. Still, he mainly went back to his old - really old - club because he's comfortable with it in the bunkers.

Wilson said he hasn't tried to compare the spin rate on the Ping wedges with new clubs.

"I'm not so much concerned with the grooves as I am the design of the wedge," Wilson said. "If it does create more spin, great. But I can't tell you it honestly does."

Read more: http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1953875,00.html#ixzz0e7SF6WiW

Tom Ghostwood

I just think its hilarious that they have to use the ugliest club of all time for a bit of extra spin.

RGS

There only legal in the USA due to a court case between Ping and the USPGA.

The wedges cant be used in Europe--so when these players come to the Open they have to change their wedges. Same should apply to the Ryder Cup or will we have a "Wedge War" at Celtic Manor.

In__tuition

This is a pointless thread. Why?

First off it's legal.

No one has broke any rules.

The Ping wedge was designed for amateur golfers primarily, so professionals using them are at a slight disadvantage actually.

There is no controversy, only think-minded persons looking to create.

Blunder

Yep. No one has done anything wrong. Phil taking legal action against slanderous comments made by some people.

Its not a pointless thread though. Its a major talking point at this tournament primarily as the number 2 golfer in the world is using the court ruling to his advantage. It was mentioned at previous tournaments but people just laughed off the fact it was JD that was mainly using them 'and sure he's a mad fecker anyway' It merrits discussion despite there being no issue in terms of legality but Some people may question if its in the spirit of the game.

Sandwlch

Can the USPGA not just declare a local rule banning these clubs for their events - even though its legal under USGA in US and Mexico? Dont they already tweak the rules: no changing of ball type between holes, slow play penalties, dropping zones etc.

It would remove the problem and no need for any debate on whether Phil etc are morally questionable even if with in the rules.

On the topic itself I wouldnt criticise the players - golf is an extremely rules regimented game. Sometimes it goes against a player and is seemingly unfair (deVincenzo missing out on a Masters playoff for a slip of the pencil rather than anything to do with him hitting the ball) - but we accept it. We also have to accept when the rules have a loophole that may not have been intended to favour a player yet does so.

fullstop

In__tuition wrote: »

This is a pointless thread. Why?

First off it's legal.

No one has broke any rules.

The Ping wedge was designed for amateur golfers primarily, so professionals using them are at a slight disadvantage actually.

There is no controversy, only think-minded persons looking to create.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise I had to pass potential thread topics with you before posting :rolleyes:

How the **** is it a pointless thread? As opposed to your betting threads?? Nobody forced you to read it did they?

Goodluck2me

fullstop wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise I had to pass potential thread topics with you before posting :rolleyes:

How the **** is it a pointless thread? As opposed to your betting threads?? Nobody forced you to read it did they?

You really shouldn't abuse the poster, it's not very constructive.

fullstop

Goodluck2me wrote: »

You really shouldn't abuse the poster, it's not very constructive.

Point out where I did kplsthx

Goodluck2me

fullstop wrote: »

How the **** is it a pointless thread? As opposed to your betting threads?? Nobody forced you to read it did they?

This isn't very nice that's all.

anyway back on topic...before you abuse me!

GreeBo

Easy now lads.

Russman

Surely everything debated on here is a matter of opinion, no ?
Why is one person's opinion "mindless" ?
We may disagree (hopefully in a respectful manner) but that doesn't invalidate anybody's views, good, bad or indifferent.

Nobody is suggesting a rule has been broken, I think everyone is agreed on that, what the debate is about is whether the spirit of the law has been breached. As in any debate there are differing views, as a previous poster said, the rules sometimes go against you, sometimes not, the example given being Di Vicenzo, another would be Harrington at the Belfry a few years ago.

As I said in my post, I think the guys using the 20 year old wedges are perfectly entitled to do so (you could even argue they should be commended with knowing that they could do so) but i do think it goes against the spirit of the rule. That may be a airy fairy notion to have but hey, there you go.

Phil is praised the world over for having one of the best short games out there, I would have thought if his short game is so superior, the new rules would give him an even greater advantage over the field ? Makes you wonder if the Mickelson short game myth was based around hitting high flop shots with grooves that more or less guarantee to stop the ball quickly.....not exactly the most taxing task in the world.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.

fullstop

In__tuition wrote: »

It's fact (having done a quick search) that flying fcuk, f**, ignorant *** is part of your daily lingo on here.

There's a school just around the corner..

Last time I had a word blocked by the swear filter before today was January 12th, so you talking rubbish frankly. Are you the same person as the previous In_Tuition who throws the toys out of the pram and deletes all his posts when somebody disagrees with them?

Sandwlch

Mods. Any chance you could delete the nonsense posts here and make the thread readable again?
Golfwise it is an interesting and topical issue - other pure golf forums are managing lengthy threads on it without a debate about whether it is a debate, a nondebate, a controversy etc.

GreeBo

Move it along lads. A few infractions handed out, more will follow if this thread doesnt get back on topic now

copacetic

Sandwlch wrote: »

Can the USPGA not just declare a local rule banning these clubs for their events - even though its legal under USGA in US and Mexico? Dont they already tweak the rules: no changing of ball type between holes, slow play penalties, dropping zones etc.

It would remove the problem and no need for any debate on whether Phil etc are morally questionable even if with in the rules.

On the topic itself I wouldnt criticise the players - golf is an extremely rules regimented game. Sometimes it goes against a player and is seemingly unfair (deVincenzo missing out on a Masters playoff for a slip of the pencil rather than anything to do with him hitting the ball) - but we accept it. We also have to accept when the rules have a loophole that may not have been intended to favour a player yet does so.

They should have got the rule right in the first place instead of leaving in the silly loophole. Once they've done that, I can't really see what the problem is with people using the loophole.

PhilipMarlowe

Guys, cop on with both the direct and the out of the corner of the mouth posts directed at each other. It's an interesting topic, ideal for a bit of discussion but the other stuff is getting in the way of it.

In__tuition

Licksy wrote: »

Guys, cop on with both the direct and the out of the corner of the mouth posts directed at each other. It's an interesting topic, ideal for a bit of discussion but the other stuff is getting in the way of it.

You cop on.

I said it's not a controversial topic.

Abuse followed.

PhilipMarlowe

In__tuition wrote: »

You cop on.

I said it's not a controversial topic and get abused at.

Infraction

Bit late handing them aren't you?

If you want to look carefully you'll see that I didn't hand out any infractions, just asked for a bit of cop on at the same time as GreeBo was issuing them.
The infractions were handed out after a previous warning by GreeBo to go easy which was a perfect way to allow anyone (that wanted to) forget about the petty bickering and move on.
If anyone wants to discuss the topic then fire away... if you have a problem then send a private message to the moderators. If I see another flaming comment on this thread from anyone I'm going to start banning because frankly, this is not how I want to spend my Sunday evening.

Russman

@ Licksy, well said, bit of common sense.

In__tuition

Licksy wrote: »

this is not how I want to spend my Sunday evening.

Well I don't want to spend mine being told to cop on.

You don't need to hand out a ban. I won't be posting in this section ever again.

thegen

I wonder is Phil bidding on this?

http://catalog.ebay.com/Ping-Eye-2-Wedge-Golf-Club-/45074326/r.html

Sandwlch

copacetic wrote: »

They should have got the rule right in the first place instead of leaving in the silly loophole. Once they've done that, I can't really see what the problem is with people using the loophole.

Was it not the USGA that made the rule change but was bound by the old Ping court settlement to leave the loophole there - they couldnt close it off. But my point was could not the USPGA then close off the loophole for their tour only. Admittedly leaving the loophole there for the rest of USA+Mex but at least eliminating the high profile issue we are seeing.

Russman

Does anyone know how the wedges that were legal up to 31st Dec 2009 became legal in the first place ? From reading the comments etc in the media about the Phil "controversy" it seems that wedges with square grooves became illegal if they were manufactured post 1st April 1990.
Am I missing something in the story ?

Sandwlch

Russman wrote: »

Does anyone know how the wedges that were legal up to 31st Dec 2009 became legal in the first place ? From reading the comments etc in the media about the Phil "controversy" it seems that wedges with square grooves became illegal if they were manufactured post 1st April 1990.
Am I missing something in the story ?

This bit I think :

http://golf.about.com/od/progolftours/a/ping-eye-2-grooves.htm

Russman

Thanks Sandwich,
So it seems that the "new regulations" brought in in the 1990-93 allowed the grooves that were legal until a few weeks ago and its those regs that have been changed ? While the original "square grooves" pioneered by Ping remain legal due to the court case. Gotcha.

Goodluck2me

With regards to the irons, I think that in golf especially you are supposed to play the game in the spirit its intended, and this really isn't it.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the Ryder cup.

Senna

Nearly sure there's one (or 2) of them in the local golf shop, must have a look, could get a good price from them on ebay:D

I remember when they were all the rage, but even then i though they were ulgy, my old slazager bladed wedge looked 100% better.

defenestrator

For those who argue that using a Ping wedge is against the spirit of the game:
Golf is not a religion.
Those decision makers at the PGA are not high priests.
Do you care if your buddies play with square grooved wedges when you play
for a dollar a hole?
Do you carry extra V grooved wedges so you can sell them one because you
won't let them play with their old clubs?
Does your local golf course check your clubs before going out to make sure
you are not carrying those illegal sticks?
Golf is just like capitalism; winning ($$$) is all that matters.
Whose spirit? Yours or mine? Does the PGA have a soul? Does a corporation?
Did god write the rule book?
Do you really care or are you just ......... bored.

Russman

Some might argue that winning is not all that matters in golf.....particularly amateur golf.

dvemail

It seems Harrington could try out these wedges in his next outing on the pga tour.

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2010/2/2/harrington-to-play-ping-wedge.html

I hope he stays away from them and all the contravisory it brings.

thegen

defenestrator wrote: »

For those who argue that using a Ping wedge is against the spirit of the game:
Golf is not a religion.
Those decision makers at the PGA are not high priests.
Do you care if your buddies play with square grooved wedges when you play
for a dollar a hole?
Do you carry extra V grooved wedges so you can sell them one because you
won't let them play with their old clubs?
Does your local golf course check your clubs before going out to make sure
you are not carrying those illegal sticks?
Golf is just like capitalism; winning ($$$) is all that matters.
Whose spirit? Yours or mine? Does the PGA have a soul? Does a corporation?
Did god write the rule book?
Do you really care or are you just ......... bored.

Did anyone mention religion? Were in Europe not across the pond in the good old US of A so we play for a euro a hole and no I dont care about my mates using square grooves as they are not banned for amateurs until 2024.

charlieIRL

Russman wrote: »

Some might argue that winning is not all that matters in golf.....particularly amateur golf.

Especially in amateur golf.

Whyner

Mickelson says he will not use Ping wedge ... at least this week

http://www.pgatour.com/2010/tournaments/r007/02/03/mickelson_grooves/index.html

He's trying to make a point? Sounds a bit silly

fullstop

The whole thing is great free publicity for Ping

Icepickle

Ping have voluntarily allowed the USPGA close the loophole preventing them from banning the Ping Eye 2 wedges.

http://www.pgatour.com/2010/r/03/09/finchem.transcript/index.html