Pace on long runs

elvis jones

Hi all,

My 18 week programme for Cork begins this weekend and will be stepping up my mileage.

I've been getting in base miles and the longest run i've done so far is 8.5 miles.

With that in mind i'm wondering if my long runs should be at my normal pace ( about 9.40 ) or quicker/slower. With that pace i would be happy with my marathon time for my 1st.

I do my 3 mile/5 mile/6mile at this pace so i am wondering am i pushing too hard on long runs.

I just want to start off right and build.

Any advice would be great.

RedB

I'd go slower by approx 45-60 secs/mile on a LSR (Long Slow Run). I believe the intent is to focus on building endurance by running for a longer time rather than the distance / speed side of it. Other sessions during the week would focus on speed by running for shorter distances at faster pace. PMP (Planned Marathon Pace) should work out between the fast and slow paces.

belcarra

The quick answer would be to take an extra 1min-2min per mile slower for the long runs. Here I'd regard the long runs as the weekly trudge over 13 miles for the like of yourself perhaps. The idea is to stay on your feet as long as possible not to do the required miles in a quicker time.

in general, if you can hold a conversation without much difficulty while running then this is a good pace to stick to for the long runs.

You'll find much more info relating to this by means of a simple google search or going straight to Runner's World or Hal Higdon, etc.

elvis jones

Thanks for that, i'll have to teach myself to slow down on sunday morning then !

That would be average of roughly 10.30 per mile. My last run was 9.42.

I've focus on my midweek run at about 9.30 per mile then.

elvis jones

belcarra wrote: »

The quick answer would be to take an extra 1min-2min per mile slower for the long runs. Here I'd regard the long runs as the weekly trudge over 13 miles for the like of yourself perhaps. The idea is to stay on your feet as long as possible not to do the required miles in a quicker time.

in general, if you can hold a conversation without much difficulty while running then this is a good pace to stick to for the long runs.

You'll find much more info relating to this by means of a simple google search or going straight to Runner's World or Hal Higdon, etc.

I'm following Hal's novice 2 programme and have ordered his book.

Aiming for 10 miles this weekend......lucky me will spend my 1st week of training in Lanzarote:cool:

Krusty_Clown

elvis jones wrote: »

I'm following Hal's novice 2 programme and have ordered his book.

Aiming for 10 miles this weekend......lucky me will spend my 1st week of training in Lanzarote:cool:

Not sure what the temperatures are like in Lanzarote at the moment, but I did a week of training while on holidays in Fuertaventura recently (34-37'C), and if I can offer you on piece of advice, it would be this: Wear sunscreen.
Also, stop every three miles to re-hydrate, and run during the coolest part of the day (either the morning or the evening). It's a great way to explore the islands, and get off the well-beaten tourist track.

elvis jones

Thanks Krusty.......

I have a 5 month old, so will be up early !!

Planning to go at 7 in the morning and with fair skin i have to wear factor 50 everywhere.

going to do a few short runs and one long on on the sat and then settle on for the rugby

RedB

Even when you're back home its a good idea to think about hydation and maybe even fuel when planning long runs. If I'm going to be running longer than 90mins I'd need to have stashed a bottle of water beforehand in a bush or behind the base of a road sign probably about the 6-7M stage for you. When going beyond 10M you might consider an energy gel also. I did 12M 2 weeks ago and faded without having either but last week I did 13M with water/gel @ a convenient 9M mark as I'm trying to stretch how far I can go without them and still not be fading.

elvis jones

I bought one of the water water i can hold in my hand, going to try it this weekend.

Also buying the energy drink powder that i can make up myself to have before i go out.

The long run is actually enjoy the most. I did 3 miles with my wife and when it was done i felt i was only warmed up ( suppose its good to be feeling that and shows my fitness imporving )

Can i get those gels in elvery etc ?

--amadeus--

Long run pace tends to be a bit of a minefield and a wee bit controversial.

In my opinion it really comes down to your experience and your PMP (Planned Marathon Pace).

With a standard pace of 9:40ish I assume you are going for a mara in the 4:00 - 4:30 bracket. I'm also assuming this is your first mara?

Because under those circumstances I would simply forget about pace on your LSRs. Set out nice and slow, bomble around at whatever speed gets you round the distance and concentrate on building up the miles and distance. Your longest LSR should (according to P&D) take as long to complete as your marathon and the purpose of LSRs in the first 2 - 4 training cycles is simply to build endurance, not speed. So take your time.

As you get faster and more experienced and your PMP drops then the point of the LSR changes and you need to use it to develop speed endurance (rather than just straight endurance) and target paces come into play (PMP+10% - PMP+20% are the guidelines). There are some who claim that you should run your LSRs at or close to race pace. They would very much be in the minority and tend to be concentrated at the faster end of teh scale. The LSR puts a huge strain in your body and takes a couple of days to fully recover from - the faster you run it the longer the recovery and teh greater the risk of injury. Those who run LSRs at or close to PMP seem to be those with excellent biomechanics who recover more quickly than us mortals!

elvis jones

Amadeus the 4 to 4.5 hr is about what i'm looking at and it is indeed my 1st marathon.

I mention pace as it gives my something to focus on and helps on the longer runs. I have a Polar and the PMP lets me know how i'm doing ( up hill, down hill etc )

I think i'll aim for about 10.30 PM on sunday and see how that goes. After the 8.5 miles last sat my breathing was perfect but the legs were sore for a while. Some nice stretches and a warm bath and i was fine in 20 mins.

The hydration is something i'll also have to look at once i go over 10M.

Krusty_Clown

I remember doing my first ever long run. it was around April 2008, around two weeks after finishing the Connemara half marathon. I had never heard of acronyms like: PMP, LT, V02, P&D or HH. I just set out to do 16 miles, by keeping my HR under an arbitrary value (think it was 155). Followed the same pattern for the next few long runs, until I was alternating weeks between 20 mile runs and 13 miles. The 20 mile runs were hard and painful (but were getting progressively easier). So while I didn't focus on speed at all, I knew I'd have no problem with the distance, as long as the HR remained below 155. The speed also came as part of the package though, and I was delighted with my finishing time (3:25).

Long story short: I agree with Amadeus. For your first marathon, pace isn't hugely important. Getting the long runs done is the priority, the speed will look after itself. There's plenty time once you've completed your first marathon to worry about PMP, V02, LT and HTFU'ing!

elvis jones

Thanks for the advice guys.

Maybe i have it in my head that not only to i need to cover the miles but need to do them in the decent time also so i won't be crazy slow come June 7:o

I'll bring back the pace a but on sunday and go from there ( oh and krusty and 10 miles is a long run............for me:D;) )

shels4ever

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Long run pace tends to be a bit of a minefield and a wee bit controversial.

In my opinion it really comes down to your experience and your PMP (Planned Marathon Pace).

With a standard pace of 9:40ish I assume you are going for a mara in the 4:00 - 4:30 bracket. I'm also assuming this is your first mara?

Because under those circumstances I would simply forget about pace on your LSRs. Set out nice and slow, bomble around at whatever speed gets you round the distance and concentrate on building up the miles and distance. Your longest LSR should (according to P&D) take as long to complete as your marathon and the purpose of LSRs in the first 2 - 4 training cycles is simply to build endurance, not speed. So take your time.

As you get faster and more experienced and your PMP drops then the point of the LSR changes and you need to use it to develop speed endurance (rather than just straight endurance) and target paces come into play (PMP+10% - PMP+20% are the guidelines). There are some who claim that you should run your LSRs at or close to race pace. They would very much be in the minority and tend to be concentrated at the faster end of teh scale. The LSR puts a huge strain in your body and takes a couple of days to fully recover from - the faster you run it the longer the recovery and teh greater the risk of injury. Those who run LSRs at or close to PMP seem to be those with excellent biomechanics who recover more quickly than us mortals!

+1
Yep early in a 18 week plan, i wouldnt even wear a watch for a long run , its all about getting around time on feet . As you progress through your training i'd then watch that your not running too fast depenidng on goals i'd say if your going to run from 4-4:30 then 9:45 / 10 min pace will be grand .

I'd say 3 pmp runs is more then enough for people doing their first couple of marathon, as most of your progress will cion this is more based on my personal views that the stress of pmp running for long distances really does take its tole over the weeks.

Bambaata

I use a HRM and stick to Zone 2 as much as possible

elvis jones

Bambaata wrote: »

I use a HRM and stick to Zone 2 as much as possible

I have a HRM but find the pace and my level of breathing a good indication of how i'm getting along.

I've only used the HRM once and bloody hell strap was tight ( i have a few stone to get down:P)

Sub430

Wise words from our old whip cracker --amadeus--

Have a look at this thread if you have a spare hour or two.:rolleyes:
It's the mentored thread from last year, got us through our first marathon in and around the times you are looking for.
Covers all you need to know.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055549959

--amadeus--

Sub430 wrote: »

Wise words from our old whip cracker --amadeus--

Ahh now I only crack whips every second saturday and when I'm wearing that rather fetching rubber number....

RoyMcC

I hear all the wise words and I seem to be in a minority. I'm just not happy in myself if I don't run (say) 14 miles in PMP or faster. Maybe I'll re-read the thread as suggested by Sub430 and have a re-think

shels4ever

RoyMcC wrote: »

I hear all the wise words and I seem to be in a minority. I'm just not happy in myself if I don't run (say) 14 miles in PMP or faster. Maybe I'll re-read the thread as suggested by Sub430 and have a re-think

I'd agree, but also think its about getting the balance of PMP to easy miles right, I know that i'm not capable of 8 week with lots of pmp running. I'll have heaps of easy miles in this training plan now with only 3 key marathon session, 1 been a 16 mile faster then pmp run(or a half mara race). Will have to see if I can back it up this time

SUNGOD

not sure who posted this but good basic advice i saw on this forum last year

"if you want to run faster , run longer."
"if you want to run longer , run slower"

great advice for anyone starting running

RedB

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Ahh now I only crack whips every second saturday and when I'm wearing that rather fetching rubber number....

TMI :eek::D

meathcountysec

SUNGOD wrote: »

not sure who posted this but good basic advice i saw on this forum last year

"if you want to run faster , run longer."
"if you want to run longer , run slower"

great advice for anyone starting running

If it wasn't Tergat it should have been;)

Sub430

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Ahh now I only crack whips every second saturday and when I'm wearing that rather fetching rubber number....

Can't find that mentored thread...

nomadic

I found it hard to run slower than PMP last year. In fact I rarely did. Probably explains why I crashed and burned in the marathon. I think i'll go for the slow start with the last few miles at PMP tactic this year.

Sub430

My (noob) advice would be to do as many long runs as possible, forget about the time, don't even bring a watch just mapmyrun it. The training plans say stop at 20 miles but I would push it to 22 (if I ever do a marathon again). I know there are arguments saying that 22 miles will take too much out of you but you'll be smashed after 20 miles, 2 more shouldn't make a difference.

Good luck with it, you might hate it at times, I certainly did but crossing the line is special. Very special.

Krusty_Clown

Actually, I deleted that post, as I had mis-read Shels comment. What Shels had posted was 3x pmp runs, so I have to politely agree. we're all in agreement. Right. Now lets fix the recession and the Northern Ireland crisis.

menoscemo

nomadic wrote: »

I found it hard to run slower than PMP last year. In fact I rarely did. Probably explains why I crashed and burned in the marathon. I think i'll go for the slow start with the last few miles at PMP tactic this year.

So did I and I crashed and burned at mile 20. I now firmly believe i should have ran slower on LSRs. My longest LSR was 20 miles and i did it in just over 3hr (bang on PMP pace). In the marathon i reached the same point at the same time but then was unaccustomed to the pain of going any further (should have taken my HTFU pill:pac:).
Anyway, In retrospect I think it would have been more beneficial to take the LSR slower and stretch it out to 4hrs. As someone here said if you want to train for a 4hr marathon, get your body used to running for 4hours albeit at a slow pace.

shels4ever

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Actually, I deleted that post, as I had mis-read Shels comment. What Shels had posted was 3x pmp runs, so I have to politely agree. we're all in agreement. Right. Now lets fix the recession and the Northern Ireland crisis.

ah well all agree this wont be much fun then

T runner

Hi Elvis. I agree with a lot of the advice here.

Initially the LSRs should be about getting around, nice and easy. You can do a run during the week of medium lenght (over half duration of long run). Run this at marathon pace but use it to build a relaxed smooth rythm for the marathon. Your legs will be turning over a bit faster but you will be controlled and relaxed.

Ideally as you get fitter and closer to race time you can start getting this rythm into your LSRs. As Amadeus suggested starting them easy then the middle portion 20% slower than PMP and the last potion only 10% slower than PMP.

Again your longest LSR should equal your PM duration so that your body is used to working dor the duration of the marathon.

Doing strides (mile pace, relaxed fast) of 6 by 100 (recover well between each) twice a week will help your leg turnover and make it easier to establish this race rythm.

Im training for a marathon at the mo and this is what Im doing.

cfitz

meathcountysec wrote: »

not sure who posted this but good basic advice i saw on this forum last year

"if you want to run faster , run longer."
"if you want to run longer , run slower"

great advice for anyone starting running

If it wasn't Tergat it should have been;)

I'm not so sure. It sounds like a bit of a meaningless cliché to me. Tergat's advice is usually a little more specific (and useful).

donothoponpop

cfitz wrote: »

I'm not so sure. It sounds like a bit of a meaningless cliché to me. Tergat's advice is usually a little more specific (and useful).

Logically, it's a contradiction.

Run faster => run longer => run slower ("=>" meaning "implies")

SUNGOD

cfitz wrote: »

I'm not so sure. It sounds like a bit of a meaningless cliché to me. Tergat's advice is usually a little more specific (and useful).

i know people who run a couple of times a week .
they run the same course/distance/speed and wonder why the are not improving
i imagine that advice is for people like them who are starting out
if you are are only doing 2x5 miles a week try add in a longer run and that will improve your 5 mile time
to be able to run this longer run you will have to run it slower then your normal 5 mile pace .

its ok to keep it simple

--amadeus--

Things can appear logically contradictory and still true. The trouble starts when people apply good advice for someone at a level different to them to themselves.

If - like the OP - you are running 9:30 - 10:00/miles, are aiming for a 4 - 5:00 marathon and have never done a marathon before then Sungods advice is excellent. Before you can run a marathon fast you have to run a marathon. To run a marathon you must run long. To run long you must at first run slow. Therfore to run faster you must run slower. QED*

Now once you start getting more experienced the actual running of the distance is less of a challenge so the advice is less relevant.

But just because it's not relevant to you doesn't mean its bad advice.









*Quod Erat Demonstrandum, not Quite Easily Done like I used to think

elvis jones

Well went out yesterday and by god was it hard to slwo down:o

I did 9.1 miles at PMP 10.44, this was 1 min slower than normal so was happy with that.

Chest was perfect and legs were heavy at the end but i still have something left in the tank if i wanted to go on.

I left a water bottle with an energy drink at roughly 5 miles and drank as i ran. It is something i have to begin to do along my runs. I had energy drink 2 hrs before i left and when i got back as well.

Overall happy and i think i'll keep at this pace. Last week 1hr 21 min, this week 1hr 37 min............keep pace and just increase time weekly.