Future doesnt look good for vets

Anthony16

Anyone agree that the increasing numbers of graduates will limit jobs for vets and a lot will have to emigrate?
I think its worth a discussion as things are tartin to look bad already

Red_Marauder

No I don't particularly agree. Lots of last years graduates have gone abroad, but unlike other industries we always have done, especially in the initial stages after graduating.
I don't actually think this country is producing too many vets at all, we seem to have it about right - especially considering the number of girls who enter it, don't end up in large animal practice and may be more inclined to leave early.

I am on the same salary as I would have expected if I graduated two years ago and thankfully the clinic I'm in hasn't been too hard done by.

Yes there is a problem with getting money from farmers and horse people, but it was always so. But given the nature of Veterinary work, farmers dont find it easy just to move to another vet, and they all need veterinary treatment, so they tend to pay vets as a priority more so than their co-op or other bills, usually.

Anthony16

Red_Marauder wrote: »

No I don't particularly agree. Lots of last years graduates have gone abroad, but unlike other industries we always have done, especially in the initial stages after graduating.
I don't actually think this country is producing too many vets at all, we seem to have it about right - especially considering the number of girls who enter it, don't end up in large animal practice and may be more inclined to leave early.

I am on the same salary as I would have expected if I graduated two years ago and thankfully the clinic I'm in hasn't been too hard done by.

Yes there is a problem with getting money from farmers and horse people, but it was always so. But given the nature of Veterinary work, farmers dont find it easy just to move to another vet, and they all need veterinary treatment, so they tend to pay vets as a priority more so than their co-op or other bills, usually.

Fair enough,you are entitled to your opinion but consider this:
There has been a new 4 year graduate course intoduced in UCD.On top of that,in the near future there will be 50 vets per year coming over from budapest.Worse again,because of how hard the pharmaceutical industry has been hit,pharmacies are selling vet products at CP!!Apparently,there plan is to lure farmers in with low prices and raise the price year by year(i mean wtf?)
And to add insult to injury there are already certain vets who are doing calls for 25 euro!And the bad times aint even started yet!!
In the future,farmers will have power over vets as they will obviously choose the vet with the lowest fee and vets will be slashing their prices just to get work.Rant over:D

Avns1s

Anthony16 wrote: »

Fair enough,you are entitled to your opinion but consider this:
There has been a new 4 year graduate course intoduced in UCD.On top of that,in the near future there will be 50 vets per year coming over from budapest.Worse again,because of how hard the pharmaceutical industry has been hit,pharmacies are selling vet products at CP!!Apparently,there plan is to lure farmers in with low prices and raise the price year by year(i mean wtf?)
And to add insult to injury there are already certain vets who are doing calls for 25 euro!And the bad times aint even started yet!!
In the future,farmers will have power over vets as they will obviously choose the vet with the lowest fee and vets will be slashing their prices just to get work.Rant over:D

Hmmmm Sounds to me like healthy competition that should exist in the private sector. Everyone else, including the farmers presumably, are being hit by the recession. Why shouldn't vets do likewise?

The vets I know work hard, very hard in fact. But they have been well rewarded. I dont know any that aren't extremely wealthy. As an aside, like any business, if you're the best at what you do the work will come and the rates can be a bit above the competition.

Red_Marauder

Anthony16 wrote: »

Fair enough,you are entitled to your opinion but consider this:
There has been a new 4 year graduate course intoduced in UCD.On top of that,in the near future there will be 50 vets per year coming over from budapest.

I'm not sure that given the economic situation we will remain sending that many vets to Budapest.
There is also the issue of the Veterinary College being a very small place compared to other professional institutions, everybody knows everybody else and I can't see many employers choosing a Hungarian qualification than the one given by his old alma mater. I'm not saying that's fair, just how it is. I think this might put people off travelling to Budapest if the economic situation tightens.
Irish Vets are very mobile. My year was the first to graduate with AVMA accreditation which gives us freedom to practice in the USA without sitting their professional exams - this has already meant a large amount of Irish graduates choosing the states for professional reasons, particularly in equine and specialised small animal clinics now that the whole process is so straightforward. It's actually great for Irish Veterinary Medicine.

Furthermore, you don't seem to appreciate the shift away from LA to SA work in country practices. I know Vets who never had small animal clinics in their practices, now investing in small animal diagnostics (like ECG and in-house haematology). This is a new departure for rural practice. Personally I think it can only be positive.

Worse again,because of how hard the pharmaceutical industry has been hit,pharmacies are selling vet products at CP!!Apparently,there plan is to lure farmers in with low prices and raise the price year by year(i mean wtf?)

Not really an issue, this was always going to happen, particularly as Veterinary Medicine in large animal practice shifts from case bases to herd health methods - we've been hearing about it for years.

In the future,farmers will have power over vets as they will obviously choose the vet with the lowest fee and vets will be slashing their prices just to get work.Rant over:D

Farmers already have 'power' over vets. They're the customer, for a lot of vets and without them what's the point in getting out of bed?

Anthony16

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I'm not sure that given the economic situation we will remain sending that many vets to Budapest.
There is also the issue of the Veterinary College being a very small place compared to other professional institutions, everybody knows everybody else and I can't see many employers choosing a Hungarian qualification than the one given by his old alma mater. I'm not saying that's fair, just how it is. I think this might put people off travelling to Budapest if the economic situation tightens.
Irish Vets are very mobile. My year was the first to graduate with AVMA accreditation which gives us freedom to practice in the USA without sitting their professional exams - this has already meant a large amount of Irish graduates choosing the states for professional reasons, particularly in equine and specialised small animal clinics now that the whole process is so straightforward. It's actually great for Irish Veterinary Medicine.

Furthermore, you don't seem to appreciate the shift away from LA to SA work in country practices. I know Vets who never had small animal clinics in their practices, now investing in small animal diagnostics (like ECG and in-house haematology). This is a new departure for rural practice. Personally I think it can only be positive.

Not really an issue, this was always going to happen, particularly as Veterinary Medicine in large animal practice shifts from case bases to herd health methods - we've been hearing about it for years.


Farmers already have 'power' over vets. They're the customer, for a lot of vets and without them what's the point in getting out of bed?

I see what you are saying,and i agree with you about the avma accreditation(spelling?),but i m speaking about vets in ireland rather than globally.I know that in the states there will be plenty of opportunities for vets and many of our newly qualified vets will have to emigrate,which proves my overall point.

Furthermore,how can you say that pharmacies sellin vet products is not an issue?Vet practices get a lot of money from farmers buying their medicines.If they are not bought,then vets dont get that added income,which is very unfair,imo.

I believe the hungary graduates will be seen as equals because they have shown a great desire to do veterinary by going abroad to pursue their dream.Im not trying to stereotype irish trained vets but the few iv met have been arrogant,saying things like "avma accredited and best degree in the world" and lookin down on the hungarian course(not that im saying you do it)


On the farmer power thing i dont think they have as much control over vets now as they will have in the future.Right now a vet can say "if u dont pay then whos going to get up at 3am for a cow calving in the spring".The farmer wont have a lot of options as not all vets are willing to do this.
In a few years there will be many vets available(budapest grads,ucd undergrads and grads) to the farmer and they can just say "**** off,ill get someone else"

Anthony16

Avns1s wrote: »

Hmmmm Sounds to me like healthy competition that should exist in the private sector. Everyone else, including the farmers presumably, are being hit by the recession. Why shouldn't vets do likewise?

The vets I know work hard, very hard in fact. But they have been well rewarded. I dont know any that aren't extremely wealthy. As an aside, like any business, if you're the best at what you do the work will come and the rates can be a bit above the competition.

Vets wont be hit by the recession,it will be the increasing graduates that will ruin them.

Delancey

I think it was George Bernard Shaw who once remarked on the subject of Professional Representative Bodies that '' their most important function is to limit the numbers gaining admission to their profession and thus preserve the status quo '' :rolleyes:

I have to say some of the points raised in this thread are indicative of a mindset that has seen Irish business and consumers alike ripped off for years by various professions - bring on the competition !

Red_Marauder

Anthony16 wrote: »

I see what you are saying,and i agree with you about the avma accreditation(spelling?),but i m speaking about vets in ireland rather than globally.I know that in the states there will be plenty of opportunities for vets and many of our newly qualified vets will have to emigrate,which proves my overall point.

Not really. What is beginning to happen in Veterinary Medicine now is what happened to medicine in the 1980s, or possibly beforehand.

For the first time, our graduates are gaining enormously useful experience as practitioners in clinics abroad - particularly in the USA. Like medical practitioners, there is no reason to think that these skills and this professional insight won't return home with these graduates who - after all - are not typically leaving for economic reasons but for professional reasons arising from AVMA.

Furthermore,how can you say that pharmacies sellin vet products is not an issue?Vet practices get a lot of money from farmers buying their medicines.If they are not bought,then vets dont get that added income,which is very unfair,imo.

Look, I remember being in primary school, a good 6 years before I entered the vet college, saying how the face of large animal practice was shifting from case methods to herd health. This is just one example of that shift. Farmers are becoming increasingly responsible for their veterinary care and it doesn't have to be particularly disastrous for veterinary practitioners who can serve, perhaps, a more useful role as herd health advisors.

I believe the hungary graduates will be seen as equals because they have shown a great desire to do veterinary by going abroad to pursue their dream.

No offence but in my experience that doesn't cut much mustard with employers. They don't care about your leaving cert results, they don't care if you tried harder than Joe Bloggs to get into veterinary.
In my experience of interviews, they care about your university education, they like to see that you've trained under the old pillars of the veterinary college and its long standing staff a lot more than they care for what many of them, rightly or wrongly, consider questionable degrees from Eastern Europe.

Personally, I can see the benefits of hiring a candidate who went to extreme lengths to get a veterinary degree, but comparing the two degrees, comparing their levels of recognition, and given the fact that one is more likely to be familiar with UCD and its teaching standards, I can honestly see why an employer would prefer a UCD candidate.

Im not trying to stereotype irish trained vets but the few iv met have been arrogant,saying things like "avma accredited and best degree in the world" and lookin down on the hungarian course(not that im saying you do it)

I don't, but you must admit there is a marked difference in terms of facilities and standards between Hungary and the Veterinary College here in Ireland surely?

Anthony16

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Not really. What is beginning to happen in Veterinary Medicine now is what happened to medicine in the 1980s, or possibly beforehand.

For the first time, our graduates are gaining enormously useful experience as practitioners in clinics abroad - particularly in the USA. Like medical practitioners, there is no reason to think that these skills and this professional insight won't return home with these graduates who - after all - are not typically leaving for economic reasons but for professional reasons arising from AVMA.

Look, I remember being in primary school, a good 6 years before I entered the vet college, saying how the face of large animal practice was shifting from case methods to herd health. This is just one example of that shift. Farmers are becoming increasingly responsible for their veterinary care and it doesn't have to be particularly disastrous for veterinary practitioners who can serve, perhaps, a more useful role as herd health advisors.

No offence but in my experience that doesn't cut much mustard with employers. They don't care about your leaving cert results, they don't care if you tried harder than Joe Bloggs to get into veterinary.
In my experience of interviews, they care about your university education, they like to see that you've trained under the old pillars of the veterinary college and its long standing staff a lot more than they care for what many of them, rightly or wrongly, consider questionable degrees from Eastern Europe.

Personally, I can see the benefits of hiring a candidate who went to extreme lengths to get a veterinary degree, but comparing the two degrees, comparing their levels of recognition, and given the fact that one is more likely to be familiar with UCD and its teaching standards, I can honestly see why an employer would prefer a UCD candidate.


I don't, but you must admit there is a marked difference in terms of facilities and standards between Hungary and the Veterinary College here in Ireland surely?

I can see that we wont agree on much but time will tell and many vets have already told me that the future in ireland is bleak for the profession.As i said,time will tell.
Just 1 last point-afaik,the hungarian college is ranked 7th in the world to irelands position of 12th.So yes,the standards in hungary are at the very least the same as ireland,maybe even higher

Red_Marauder

Anthony16 wrote: »

I can see that we wont agree on much but time will tell and many vets have already told me that the future in ireland is bleak for the profession.As i said,time will tell.

Well, my bet is that points are going to rise for Veterinary this year and I don't foresee any serious employment problems for what is, realistically, a small pool of graduates for a country of our size.

Just 1 last point-afaik,the hungarian college is ranked 7th in the world to irelands position of 12th.So yes,the standards in hungary are at the very least the same as ireland,maybe even higher

What ranking list is that from? I have never heard that and would doubt that either institution is ranked as high compared to the US and places like Cambridge and the RVC London.

DerTierarzt

This was actually quite interesting to read, that's all I'd like to say. Nice to see both sides of an argument.

CelticRambler

For anyone still following this discussion, there are a few red herrings being lobbed about! The "herd health" challenge is more than twenty years old now: the change has already happened and everyone - farmers and vets - have adjusted. The AVMA accreditation is great for those who want to try for a job in the US, but things are not great over there. Here's a report from the NY Times on the subject, published earlier in the year: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/business/high-debt-and-falling-demand-trap-new-veterinarians.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The problem is a boom in supply (that is, vets) and a decline in demand (namely, veterinary services). Class sizes have been rising at nearly every school, in some cases by as much as 20 percent in recent years. And the cost of vet school has far outpaced the rate of inflation. It has risen to a median of $63,000 a year for out-of-state tuition, fees and living expenses, according to the Association of American Veterinary Medical Colleges, up 35 percent in the last decade.

This would seem less alarming if vets made more money. But starting salaries have sunk by about 13 percent during the same 10-year period, in inflation-adjusted terms, to $45,575 a year, according to the American Veterinary Medical Association. America may be pet-crazed and filled with people eager to buy expensive fetch toys and heated cat beds. But the total population of pets is going down, along with the sums that owners are willing to spend on the health care of their animals, one of the lesser-known casualties of the recession.

What the full article points out is that there are more students being trained, on the basis of "ability to pay" more than ability to compete with their peers. That doesn't mean they're any less qualified - even in UCD, 50% of all vets graduate in the bottom half of their class - but they may be more motivated, and if they can't get a job working for someone else, they'll set up their own practice.

Changes in the regulatory framework in the UK and Ireland, particularly in allowing the creation of overnight emergency clinics, means it's possible to offer a small, relatively low-tech service with reasonable working hours, referring anything too complex to a bigger, arguably less personal, veterinary hospital.

Contrary to the point made above, while many UK/Irish vets would love to develop highly specialised skills, there simply isn't the demand anywhere for more than a handful of exclusive consultants like you get in human medicine. There is, however, a strong demand for local "do the best you can" practitioners, and in both countries, the number of "corner shop" surgeries has increased considerably over the last decade - quite unlike the situation affecting rural doctors. Many of these are all-women clinics, so maybe that's the real change students, new graduates, farmers and others have to cope with.