problems with web designers

Dreamtime

Hi all

(hope this is the right place if not feel free to move it)

A few months back i got a company to design a website for me http://www.dreamtimebouncycastles.com/. From talking to a few people and here on boards i feel ive paid alot of money for a brouchere website that lacks quite a bit on the seo side of things.(iam happy with the design on it).

I am now been told by the company i will have to pay for any form of seo i would require for the site.Which i feel (and athers here on boards have said) should be bog standard for a website like this.

I basicly would like to know what i should do if there is anything at all ?

I can only edit text and very basic stuff with the cms so i couldent even add the likes of H1 headers and stuff like that

sorry for the long post

all advice appreciated

thanks in advance

Dave!

Hi mate,

Others will be able to help alot more than me, but I would make a couple of points:

1. Did you discuss and lay out clearly what you wanted from the website, prior to the designer doing it? If you feel they didn't hold up their side of the deal, then you'll probably have grounds for further action

2. As I understand it, SEO is a rather large area, there are companies that exist solely for improving SEO and they charge a handsome price for those services ! So it's probably not just a simple task that the designer can do in a few minutes. Did you agree at the start that SEO would be part of the deal? If not then you can understand that he would charge extra.

3. The site looks very snazzy !

Just my thoughts

cormee

Some designers would optomise your site when building it, but unless the specific subject was discussed you can't assume it was part of the original quote.

Dreamtime

thanks guys for the reply

I discussed this at the design stage and i was told that the website includes CORE SEO,Iam not sure what core seo should include but i would of thought it would of included the basics semantic mark up and simple things like this.

Maybe my not knowing much about this was was the cause of the problems ??

also i think the site does look snazzy but is on the 26th page of google.

Axwell

Your page titles could do with some work which might help but a problem you will have is the sheer amount of businesses on Google offering this service. There is no easy way for your to jump to the top page (pages) without spending some money on SEO and marketing to be honest. Basic SEO will not do this when there is so much competition in your area.

I see you have a google ad campaign running, the wording on it could be improved also putting Dreamtime first in it is of no benefit as people arent specifically searching for dreamtime bouncy castles, if they were they would find your site anyways.

Also Do you own the .ie or just the .com?

Dreamtime

Hi axwell

thanks for the reply what work would you reccomend for the site i dont know to much about seo,my point really was that if basics had been included in the site ide have no problem in getting them to do what is needed.(not that i really have a choice anyway).

yes i have got a campaign running but iam new to all this and wouldent really know what else to put in there.Ill have to get working on that as for the domains i own the .com and will shortly get redirected to a .ie

tricky D

Hi again,

Firstly, you can bypass the CMS you've been given and use cushycms to change some the text to headings. Don't know how or if it would affect the other CMS, but it shouldn't if it's half decent.

Some designers will build in a default level of SEO using alt, headings, strong, meta, file and path names and so on. However a full SEO job is much bigger and involves a lot of tweaking and checking logs to see what effects happen. Then there's the other part which basically put involves getting ou there on the net to give your site exposure/visibility. This 'getting netted' is very time consuming and thus expensive.

You certainly won't get near the top quickly especially going up against so many long established competitors, but then I hope you're not over relying on the web for your business.


gl/hth

Dreamtime

thanks trickyd

i have gotten quite a bit of work already from the website just about booked out for may(communions).I think it has more to do with links ive placed on free ad sites and google ads even though this needs a bit of work.its impossible to find the site re under bouncy castles etc.

i eventually heard back from the designer in an email saying that they would have a look at the site to see what eork needs to be done on it.

as for the cushycms,what would happen if i started to change stuff they know i dont have access to ??

tricky D

Dreamtime wrote: »

as for the cushycms,what would happen if i started to change stuff they know i dont have access to ??

I wouldn't know for sure. Depends on the way they work. If they work off a version they keep in their office then changes will be undone. They'd need to download the latest version from the site. So if you do make changes, it's probably best to let the designer know even though that might irk them.

Dreamtime

would it then be best to send an email to ask can i get access to the software they use for editing this.i would highly doubt they would give it as they would surly want to charge for it.it feels like been on the end of a shoe string that its impossible for me to do anything with the site without sending emails and waiting a few days for responses

tricky D

The main purpose in installing a CMS is so that usually you can make the changes. Otherwise I wouldn't know enough to comment.

p

Dreamtime wrote: »

A few months back i got a company to design a website for me http://www.dreamtimebouncycastles.com/. From talking to a few people and here on boards i feel ive paid alot of money for a brouchere website that lacks quite a bit on the seo side of things.(iam happy with the design on it).

I am now been told by the company i will have to pay for any form of seo i would require for the site.Which i feel (and athers here on boards have said) should be bog standard for a website like this.

I basicly would like to know what i should do if there is anything at all ?

I can only edit text and very basic stuff with the cms so i couldent even add the likes of H1 headers and stuff like that

How much did they charge you for the site? It looks like that company are a cheap and cheerful company and from their site it seems they charge very little for their services and you got a pretty decent site for the price. If you buy a very basic package (i'm talking less than 1000 euro for that) then you're not going to get things that you get as standard if you buy at a more normal price (2-3k)

Eoin

tricky D wrote: »

Firstly, you can bypass the CMS you've been given and use cushycms to change some the text to headings. Don't know how or if it would affect the other CMS, but it shouldn't if it's half decent.

I'd be careful though. If the OP can download the files from the webserver and verify that the content is hard-coded, then it might be OK to do so. However, the design company might be (understandably) hesitant to look at supporting the site after that. This could cause conflicts with even a decent CMS.

Dreamtime wrote:

would it then be best to send an email to ask can i get access to the software they use for editing this.i would highly doubt they would give it as they would surly want to charge for it.it feels like been on the end of a shoe string that its impossible for me to do anything with the site without sending emails and waiting a few days for responses

I'd get a list of requirements together first. See if you can get someone to do a full SEO review of the site with a list of recommendations that you want them to implement.

e.g. The <h1> tags just have an image inside them; no descriptive text. If they want a <h1> tag to be an image, then it should be set as a background image using CSS, with the inner text of the tag not displayed.

This might just be a case of them extending the CMS to update more fields than it currently does. I would doubt they would give you any source code as 1) it probably wouldn't be much use and 2) you are generally only paying them a license to use it, not to own it.

Dreamtime

hi p

i paid 1200 for the site which i think is expensive considering i typed up all the txt up for it myself more or less told them how i wanted logo other than that they put all that together with not 1 small bit of seo h1 tags would of only taken a few mins to do simple things like that.

thats my opinion on it anyway after everything is done

Dreamtime

hi eoin

how do i know if i only have a licence to use it or if i own it.i never signed anything to say either of these nor was i ever asked to sign anything to get the site designed.

So as far as i would be concerned they have designed my site and i would of thought i bought the site meaning i should have my own access to do whatever i want with it.

i have also looked at tere two sites and nothing about ownership of the site.

It seems if it is the case that if only have a licence to use it that its another way for them to make more money from me

maybe iam wrong on this but that would be my opinion on it.

let me know what you would think of this

thanks

dreamtime

Axwell

The company that did the site aarado offer different packages on their site however when you go look at the sample sites for the large and xlarge packages they are all designed by enhance.ie a different company which seems a bit odd/dodgey in itself.

The OP hasnt access to the server to download any files. He has a CMS which has FCKeditor integrated to allow him to make changes to the text etc. The pages themselves are done in tables as oppose to divs and the css is attached back to a style sheet which he doesnt have access to as its on the server.

Eoin

Dreamtime wrote: »

hi eoin

how do i know if i only have a licence to use it or if i own it.i never signed anything to say either of these nor was i ever asked to sign anything to get the site designed.

So as far as i would be concerned they have designed my site and i would of thought i bought the site meaning i should have my own access to do whatever i want with it.

i have also looked at tere two sites and nothing about ownership of the site.

It seems if it is the case that if only have a licence to use it that its another way for them to make more money from me

maybe iam wrong on this but that would be my opinion on it.

let me know what you would think of this

thanks

dreamtime

Sorry, I wasn't clear - this might not be relevant, depending on what CMS is being used and how the site is set up. It might use an open-source CMS, or it might be their own one.

If it is their own one, then they own the code behind the CMS, not you. Otherwise they wouldn't have the right to charge another customer for using the same system. You should own the design of your own website however. These are two totally different things.

I think the best thing you can do is make a list of requirements and ask them to cost it for you, and they should keep in mind that you're not happy with what you've received so far. This should cost a lot less than having another company replicate and improve what you've got so far.

Axwell

eoin wrote: »

If it is their own one, then they own the code behind the CMS, not you. Otherwise they wouldn't have the right to charge another customer for using the same system. You should own the design of your own website however. These are two totally different things.

Eoin i think there is some confusion over the last few posts. He isnt looking to edit the source code of the CMS he was looking to edit the code on the website itself to add in some SEO, H1 tags, page titles etc and to change the fav icon. However he didnt think it was possible within the CMS and was wondering should he not be able to get access to the files on the site so he could change/get someone else to the files and add what he wanted.
Ive had a look at the admin section for him and the CMS uses FCKeditor which means he can edit the source code on the pages if he wishes, there is also a section in the CMS to edit the page titles and meta tags. The fav icon however and the style sheet for the overall site sit on the server in the file system which he doesnt have access to as they only gave him access to the CMS and not the hosting. So he cant change the fav icon and if he puts in text H1 tags they will have to be styled using the FCK editor.

p

Dreamtime wrote: »

i paid 1200 for the site which i think is expensive considering i typed up all the txt up for it myself more or less told them how i wanted logo other than that they put all that together with not 1 small bit of seo h1 tags would of only taken a few mins to do simple things like that.

thats my opinion on it anyway after everything is done

1200 - that's on the low end of the scale, but not the bargain basement. I think you got good value for that. I've seen some some terrible rip-offs. I do agree that adding a few h1 tags is not that unreasonable as a request, but further SEO work would be an additional cost.

Unless you're technically savvy I wouldn't try editing the site yourself, as you could mess up the CMS they have in place.

I'm not sure what to advise, but you should know that just putting H1, H2 tags in place will not have a massive effect on your rankings.

All the best with it.

Dreamtime

hi p

maybe ive confused you a bit there by my post i wouldent expect all the seo needed on the site to be provided for the price i was given but would of expected little things(finishing touches) to have been done on the seo side.the h1 headers and favicion are 100 euro,could have saved me that at least.

bobbytables

Hi Dreamtime, before I get the point of my post I want to offer you my sympathies for what is clearly a difficult situation and is justifiably causing you considerable bother. The goal of my post is to help you and nothing else .

What strikes me consistently from your posts throughout this thread are two conflicting facts...

1. You feel that you have paid too much for what you got.
2. You don't fully understand what it was you were paying for.

1:

i paid 1200 for the site which i think is expensive

2:

I discussed this at the design stage and i was told that the website includes CORE SEO,Iam not sure what core seo should include but i would of thought it would of included the basics semantic mark up and simple things like this.

Maybe my not knowing much about this was was the cause of the problems ??

would it then be best to send an email to ask can i get access to the software they use for editing this.i would highly doubt they would give it as they would surly want to charge for it.

how do i know if i only have a licence to use it or if i own it.i never signed anything to say either of these nor was i ever asked to sign anything to get the site designed.

i wouldent expect all the seo needed on the site to be provided for the price

Now before I go on, its great that you are happy with the way that the site looks and I agree it's definately not the worst example of web presentation I've seen, but that seems to be where your praise ends, which is unfortunate.

I think the problems you are facing now are due to relying upon expectations as opposed to asking questions at the start of the project and establishing what it was you were being quoted for. When an agency does work for you, they want you to be happy with the service you receive. For web agencies in general it's more important to generate happy satisfied customers that trust you as opposed to what has happened in your case. So on that side of things I think that you are not completely to blame and that the company could probably have made more of an effort to ensure you understood what it was you were paying for. However if you were told and just nodded your head, then unfortunately its understandable why you weren't offered a more elaborate description.

For example you were told that the project you agreed to pay for included Core SEO, yet you didn't seek clarification as to what that actually included prior to starting the project. The thing about SEO, which seems to be the dominant issue here that it is not a solution, it's a process. You don't buy an SEO package and that's the end of that. Web marketing (including SEO) is something you need to budget for long term and not expect to "get it out of the way" via some initial investment (no matter how significant). Also you stated that you were on page 26 in the Google organic listing, but for what terms?, were they a set of agreed terms?. Perhaps using other relevant terms you could be much higher and when we vary those terms yet again, you could be much lower.

As a professional in the web industry, I would expect myself that core SEO refers to the initial "on page" factors to be considered and not necessarily any off site optimization. However that's only based on my assumption, if I was paying someone to do a job for me, I would have to discuss at length what it was I was paying them for and what sort of return I should expect from my investment. "Core SEO" for example could literally mean anything as you hop from one service provider to another.

One thing I see business people get bothered about a lot unfortunately is when they hold unrealistic expectations, especially when they are new to web from a business perspective. E.g. if I have a book shop based in Dublin, and I want a website, an unrealistic expectation would be to have #1 or even a page 1 organic listing for something like "book shop dublin" in Google within a matter of days/weeks. It is in a web agencies best interests to ensure that a client doesn't have unrealistic expectations prior to starting a job because they will only end up with an unsatisfied customer. This is unfortunately a level of service that the cowboys don't bother with because they are looking to make their millions from the many many customers out there that...

1. Want it as cheap as possible
2. Don't ask questions about what they are paying for (often because they are afraid that if they come across uneducated they will be taken for a ride).

Actually on that second point, you are better off coming across uneducated at that stage rather than later, because the more you discuss with your service provider, the more you will know and the more able you will be at determining if your investment will meet your expectations in terms of service delivery.

My advice to you is to make a list of things you now know you want. Go back to your service provider and get a quote to have them implemented. There is no point arguing at this stage whether unspoken levels of service should have been included. As long as the service provider did everything they said they would do for the price agreed then you don't have a leg to stand on, even if your interpretation of that agreement was different from the reality. In future I recommend that once you agree with your service provider on a level of service for an agreed price request to enter a written contractual agreement with them outlining what will be done and how much it will cost. Please acknowledge though that even at this stage, misinterpretations can exist leading to customer dissatisfaction once again.

So the bottom line is to ask ask ask questions and not expect anything that is unsaid. You will make much better use of your money if you do that.

Dreamtime

hi bobbytables

thanks for the reply.

it was stupid of me really to asume the this would be included.me thinks it time to move on and get the work done that needs doing.

tomED

Bobbytables is spot on.

I personally feel you got a great deal for the €1,200. The site looks pretty good and it's very clear what your business does.

But as BobbyTales says, SEO is not something you can buy in a "package". One size doesn't fit all when it comes to SEO. Even when a site is properly optimised, it doesn't guarantee a listing in the search results. So even if they did do some search engine optimisation of your website (which it doesn't look like they did) - there is still a lot of off-site work to be done - which most web companies won't bother with.

Dreamtime

hi tomED

I completly agree there is more to seo than on page optimisation,i am at the moment trying to build inbound links to the site which in itself is very hard to do.

at the moment i have about 20 links to the site which google shows 3.
its near impossible for me to find high pr site to put links onto

If you can recommend how/some ley me know.

thanks again

tomED

Dreamtime wrote: »

hi tomED

I completly agree there is more to seo than on page optimisation,i am at the moment trying to build inbound links to the site which in itself is very hard to do.

at the moment i have about 20 links to the site which google shows 3.
its near impossible for me to find high pr site to put links onto

If you can recommend how/some ley me know.

thanks again

It's hard to recommend without researching your business in detail. That's why SEO isn't a "package" sold with a website (although of course gangsters will sell it that way!)

Just start getting your name out there. Go to related forums, blogs etc, network with people and hopefully in the long term, it will turn into free links to your website!

daymobrew

Dreamtime wrote: »

If you can recommend how/some ley me know.

You should update your signature to include a link to your web site - make sure the text in the link includes appropriate keywords.

Dreamtime

thanks tomED

Iil just keep building them wherever i can

Chet Zar

Dreamtime wrote: »

thanks tomED

Iil just keep building them wherever i can

Also, I would hope that you are already promoting your site on the likes of Facebook and Twitter...

bobbytables

Dreamtime wrote: »

it was stupid of me really to asume the this would be included.me thinks it time to move on and get the work done that needs doing.

Not stupid at all. Listen it's completely understandable. The web is a complex platform that can do many different things for different people. For everyone to know up front exactly what they need or what can be done without any real experience is statistically improbable.

You are definitely not alone, Ireland is full of people that are in your situation. Fortunately for you, you have demonstrated a distinction between your approach to the subject and that of many others who are still suckered by the countless cowboys out there that preach to the uneducated that "professional" can be delivered "cheap", just because they know that many have no idea how to benchmark quality and the pitfalls that exist.

I wish you the very best of luck, I'm positive you will come out on top.

p

Dreamtime wrote: »

hi p
maybe ive confused you a bit there by my post i wouldent expect all the seo needed on the site to be provided for the price i was given but would of expected little things(finishing touches) to have been done on the seo side.the h1 headers and favicion are 100 euro,could have saved me that at least.

Sorry - I wasn't that clear in my response.
I agree, I think having the correct h1, h2 tags would be what I would consider 'basic seo' and you could certainly argue that should have been covered.

In my experience, I'd consider a favicon, and further SEO work as additional work though. Hope that helps somewhat.

Overall - would very much agree with what bobbytables said - that's some excellent free advice you got there.

bobbytables

Actually if you do get access to your/a content management system, I say be careful with the power you have. I have seen many good people do a terrible disservice to their business with regards on-page SEO just because they performed some run of the mill content updates without realizing the knock on effects that this could have. Perhaps it's not too much of an issue for you right now because you're not performing anywhere near where you want to be, but its just that it is possible to fall further than page 26 believe it or not.

So by all means take control of the content on your website using a CMS. Your website should have been built in accordance to a bespoke web strategy which would include a relevant and appropriate site structure. Within this structure certain sections of content are best left static (not required to change often) and others based on dynamic (will change often, E.g. special offers, time sensitive info, etc).

For on page SEO, be mindful of relevant keywords when performing content updates via your CMS. Also and this is a bit more technical, but when we as humans observe what is clearly a heading on a web page, it is not always necessarily marked-up that way in the source code. This means that just because we can see it's a heading, Google may not and not deem it as important as it should be. So if a web agency is providing you with a CMS to create hierarchical content structures (headings, subheadings, paragraphs) etc, then it is obviously important the the code that is generated by the CMS and handed to Google best represents the actual content structure of the document.

As a professional, never mind a casual web user, it would be impossible for me to look at a web page and know just by looking at what is rendered in the web browser if this has been done correctly. A quick glance at the source code for the document (which is what Google sees) would set me straight, but again this is a classic example of the sort of detail that the cowboys don't go in to leaving customers baffled as to why they are getting nowhere fast.

There are many good agencies out there that provide professional levels of service that do take all these things in to account, but there are much much more of the other kind that don't. In fact there are plenty out there that provide a low cost service that don't even realize the impact of their negligence in this regard, let alone know about them and just don't do it because they feel the customer is incapable of noticing.