PG...Is it really the problem??

SlickRic

Upon this issue coming up again in the TNA thread, do you really think this is the problem?

Personally, it's more an issue with bad storytelling; I can't comment on TNA much because I don't really watch it, but WWE can't be arsed with telling a straightforward, decent story.

For all intents and purposes, it's as 'PG' now as it was in Bret Hart's heyday.

the difference is creative is run by soap opera writer wannabes, and Vince wants to be an entertainment mogul.

if wrestling was about good, logical stories, with proper logical conclusions, we'd be a lot more satisfied, even as the pining Attitude era followers most of us are.

for example, Randy Orton v HHH last year on the Road to Wrestlemania. This was within the PG mantra apparently, and it started out as an intense feud which made sense.

then you get Shane pretty much annihilating Randy in a one-on-one match. then you have the climax to the feud about 3/4 weeks too early with HHH's breaking and entering into Randy's house.

then in the actual match, they have a normal wrestling match instead of wanting to beat the holy hell out of each other.

if they had beat the hell out of each other, it would then have made sense, and I can guarantee you, have been reacted to better.

anyway, discuss....is PG to blame?

grames_bond

honestly i dont htink it is! i think you are spot on with the "bad story telling" arguement, wwe writers are just lazy, too intent on trying to "trick" the internet followers so ridiculous swerves that make no sence are par for the course! blaming PG is just too easy!

and also look back on some of the attitudee era, a chunk of the austin vs rock storyline was all pg.....people just seem to over look and ignore that!

The Volt

SlickRic wrote: »

Upon this issue coming up again in the TNA thread, do you really think this is the problem?

Personally, it's more an issue with bad storytelling; I can't comment on TNA much because I don't really watch it, but WWE can't be arsed with telling a straightforward, decent story.

For all intents and purposes, it's as 'PG' now as it was in Bret Hart's heyday.

the difference is creative is run by soap opera writer wannabes, and Vince wants to be an entertainment mogul.

if wrestling was about good, logical stories, with proper logical conclusions, we'd be a lot more satisfied, even as the pining Attitude era followers most of us are.

for example, Randy Orton v HHH last year on the Road to Wrestlemania. This was within the PG mantra apparently, and it started out as an intense feud which made sense.

then you get Shane pretty much annihilating Randy in a one-on-one match. then you have the climax to the feud about 3/4 weeks too early with HHH's breaking and entering into Randy's house.

then in the actual match, they have a normal wrestling match instead of wanting to beat the holy hell out of each other.

it would then have made sense, and I can guarantee you, have been reacted to better.

anyway, discuss....is PG to blame?

It has definitely turned a lot of people off. I think the switch to PG means that a lot of the creative freedom of the writers has been restricted as even the Vince's Kiss my Ass Club would come under scrutiny from some right wing conservatives. I'm a major WWE fan and I can honestly say that I do not feel compelled by one single storyline at the moment. The last half decent rivalry was probably the Punk/Hardy one.

Raw provides no continuity whatsoever except for the atrocious DX. A few years ago we had Bischoff/Austin in charge and we saw power struggles, Bischoff exercising his power, then trying to keep his job etc. IMHO the guest host saga has been milked for all it's worth and at this stage is jsut pure laziness.

Smackdown is slightly better off but I feel that The Undertaker as champion is crucifying the show. He goes missing for weeks on end, shows up to 'scare' his next opponent, beats him, then disappears again. There's not even any space for a compelling rivalry for the title.Smackdown also needs a tag team contest back.

I am hoping that it is just a period of transition as there are a lot of young stars that have potential. I think WWE needs to take a chance on one of them, just like they gave the title to Orton back in 2004 I think it was when he beat Benoit.

SlickRic

Voltwad wrote: »

Raw provides no continuity whatsoever except for the atrocious DX. A few years ago we had Bischoff/Austin in charge and we saw power struggles, Bischoff exercising his power, then trying to keep his job etc. IMHO the guest host saga has been milked for all it's worth and at this stage is jsut pure laziness.

Smackdown is slightly better off but I feel that The Undertaker as champion is crucifying the show. He goes missing for weeks on end, shows up to 'scare' his next opponent, beats him, then disappears again. There's not even any space for a compelling rivalry for the title.Smackdown also needs a tag team contest back.

I am hoping that it is just a period of transition as there are a lot of young stars that have potential. I think WWE needs to take a chance on one of them, just like they gave the title to Orton back in 2004 I think it was when he beat Benoit.

WWE remaining PG does not mean any of what you propose or want cannot happen.

all PG means, is that you can't have blood, excessive violence or sexual references.

Mitch Connor

I don't think the PG helps - i think DX's 'skits' and hornswoggle are getting more air time and are more childish because of the PG rating.

However, the biggest problem the WWE has is the fact the storytelling and actual wrestling is just not good enough.

They just don't put good matches together or good storylines in place (often enough). There have been glimmers of hope, such as Di Biase vs Orton tease a month or two back. Kofi vs Orton had some great moments and could have gone somewhere.

The WWE, at the moment, it just constantly a tale of missed opportunities and poor creative decisions, and that is not due to the PG rating.

Even their good quality matches can leave you with a WTF feeling. Look at the Orton Cena I Quit match. 95% of that was brilliant, but then Cena wins with about 2 minutes of offence and an STF, after getting pummeled for the rest of it. That is just very poor story telling and booking, and has nothing to do with the PG rating.

davrho

grames_bond wrote: »

honestly i dont htink it is! i think you are spot on with the "bad story telling" arguement, wwe writers are just lazy, too intent on trying to "trick" the internet followers so ridiculous swerves that make no sence are par for the course! blaming PG is just too easy!

and also look back on some of the attitudee era, a chunk of the austin vs rock storyline was all pg.....people just seem to over look and ignore that!

I would be not far off this opinion.

I honestly think a lot of the anti-pg debate is coming from folk who were young kids themselves during the attitude era. Why did they watch then? I dont really think it was ever adult programming either. A bit risky but never adult. If wwe pulled some of the skits now they pulled then they would be slated. The characters dont have the strength to pull off the gags. The writers are failing badly with the scripts too.

I think some people have clouded judgement and live of myths of the attitude era. There was hardly any swearing for a start. 10 years ago you did not get swearing on US tv. I remember Jim Ross apoligising for someone swearing. The odd swear on the ppv's but nothing much. I have about 40ppv dvd's from that era and you find worse language from a 5 year old in Ballymun.

Jolt2007

Don't think it's the problem at all. In fact I'm all for it if it means less hardcore garbage matches. Only thing I have an issue with is the whole stopping matches to clean up blood but otherwise I'm more for it than against.

SlickRic

i'm glad there seems to be a consensus on this, i was worried there was a bit of delusion on our collective part.

the lack of quality, logical storytelling is definitely the problem.

the Cena/Orton 'I Quit' match is a fabulous example.

a wonderful performance by both participants, destroyed by awful booking and a rushed ending.

D.Q

apparently (and its a MASSIVE apparently as the source is Pro Wrestling Illustrated)...Stephanie has been taking alot of heat for creative decisions made in the past few months/years. Mainly due to not creating enough viable main event stars.

starviewadams

The main problem is the creative,not the fact that WWE have gone PG,you just have to try to watch an episode of Raw to see that the people who write the show dont know jack sh!t about wrestling and that the person in charge of these 'writers'(steph)is in way over her head.

The reason that WWE storylines in the 90's and early '00s were so compelling was because by and large they were not being written by a bunch of sit-com writers who feel that they are above the wrestling business.It was mainly Vince McMahon,Russo,Jim Cornette and Pat Patterson.

If the WWE ever want to get back to having an enjoyable wrestling product(which they probably dont)then they need to have input from people who know wrestling.
Perhaps a rotating booking team of Heyman,Dreamer and Cornette with Vince himself as the filter just like he was with Russo in the 90's.

I am losing interest in WWE by the week and nowadays I just skim through the shows(past all the midget skits and diva crap)to the miniscule amount of wrestling that is allowed to air each week,and if things continue to go the way they've been going for the last few months,then I'll probably stop watching completely.

waltersobchak

DieselQueen wrote: »

apparently (and its a MASSIVE apparently as the source is Pro Wrestling Illustrated)...Stephanie has been taking alot of heat for creative decisions made in the past few months/years. Mainly due to not creating enough viable main event stars.

+1
Everyone seems to be using scapegoats for the lack of quailty of the WWE over the last ten years, First it was the invasion angle, then the brand extension, then HHH's non stop title reigns then Cena's non stop title reigns nows its the PG rating,

Clearly the person to blame is the head of Creative ie Stephanie McMahon
i find it no coincendent that the guy she took over from Chris Keski
probably gave us the best part of the attitude era from 1999-2000 imo
and once Stephanie took over it went downhill.

Ridley

PG isn't to blame. As said, it's the excuse when show quality is down to the execution.

Personally:
Punk's sXe Society is PG and still good storytelling.
Not saying damn or ass is WWE neutering themselves for fear of Helen Lovejoys.

The Volt

Ridley wrote: »

PG isn't to blame. As said, it's the excuse when show quality is down to the execution.

Personally:
Punk's sXe Society is PG and still good storytelling.
Not saying damn or ass is WWE neutering themselves for fear of Helen Lovejoys.

Ironic that they'd hear those 'swear' words on the simpsons :pac:

Headshot

a bit of PG but iv said it numerous times the lack of competition is the problem

hopefully that will change soon enough

lankysexybeast

totally agree man it's lazy crap story telling we all watched it pre attitude era and loved it. wwe writers just seem to think we have a two week memory and through us recockulious story lines

i was discussing it with grahams earlier that if edge comes back at the royal rumble it should be (logically) to a feud with jerico. but because they think we don't remember back that far they will waste the oppertunity

The Volt

lankysexybeast wrote: »

totally agree man it's lazy crap story telling we all watched it pre attitude era and loved it. wwe writers just seem to think we have a two week memory and through us recockulious story lines

i was discussing it with grahams earlier that if edge comes back at the royal rumble it should be (logically) to a feud with jerico. but because they think we don't remember back that far they will waste the oppertunity

Totally agree. Would love in Jericho beat Undertaker sneakily for the title and let Edge and Jericho fight it out over that at Wrestlemania. He could win it at the chamber mayhaps?

Rjd2

The PG thing is not the problem, the fact is the E have proved they can wrote great feuds such as HBK/Jericho and Punk v Jeff in this kiddie era, the problem is the writing overall is not good enough. Wrestlers have not been given characters are expected to get over on their wrestling alone for example...
Dolph and Drew, 2 quality workers but both are not particularly well developed, their gimmick is “heh look I got a sneer boo me!”
It’s hard to really care in these situations.

The blame sadly lays at Vince’s door not Stephanie or Hunter, he’s the kingpin and we all know everything goes through him. Steph is meant to be one of those in favour of pushing new talent according to the reports I read.

Super-Rush

I also think the blame has to land firmly at Vince's feet. He has no competition anymore so he's doing what he wants. He's not stupid though. He knows that sticking to the PG standards he will attract the kids whos parents will keep digging into their pockets for tickets and merchandise.

He knows that if one fan gets sick of his product then there are 10 people to take his place.

So if a fan stops watching WWE where does he go?

TNA?

The wrestling is great and the talent roster is excellent. The story lines are sh1te, the production is woeful, and that was the case before Hogan turned it into a retirement home.

grames_bond

lankysexybeast wrote: »

totally agree man it's lazy crap story telling we all watched it pre attitude era and loved it. wwe writers just seem to think we have a two week memory and through us recockulious story lines

nice use of a jericho-ism

lankysexybeast wrote: »

i was discussing it with grames earlier that if edge comes back at the royal rumble it should be (logically) to a feud with jerico. but because they think we don't remember back that far they will waste the oppertunity

spell my name right would you

this is a worry for me thoguh, they have a BRILLIANT feud in the waiting with jericho and edge but the E could very easily fcuk it up, i think edge costing jericho the rumble would be a great way to start, just comes out and pulls down the top rope from the outside, then y2j can get preachy saying he officially wasnt eliminated coz edge wasnt in the rumble and edge complains that jericho never attempted to see how he was during his injury spell and bada bing bada boom you have a feud..... and its as PG as they come! but again with the woeful creative team and pathetic writers they probably wont grab this opportunity!

v3ttel

PG isn't the problem. Its poor decisions really. You can have great storylines within those restrictions.

I hate how nearly every new wrestler wears the same generic crap. Small things like changes from Chris Jerichos long tights to the generic trunks, the same as everyone else. The writing is poor and many of the characters just don't feel distinguished from one another.

A case in point, and I know this is only a small thing (and as far as I know its still the case), but the fact that everyone has to turn up for events in suits. Its like they are actively trying to kill any distinguishing features.

Some of the most classic Y2J moments, were lines he came up with himself on the fly (The Stephanie is a filthy.... etc). There should be no scripts as such, it should be a case of "this is the general theme of what we want you to say", which as far as I know, they don't trust the guys not to be spoon-fed.

And for the love of God, stop having guest hosts of Raw. I really think it is a terrible idea. Some of the people they have, only have appeal in the US. When you have a global product, this is a complete own goal.

Its next to impossible to come up with decent storylines involving the GM, when he/she changes every week. Some of the most classic storylines were between Vince/Stone Cold, but you can't have that when the guy/lady in charge changes every 2 hours.

They need a permanent GM on Raw. Allow wrestlers to have a bit of individuality, don't spoon-feed them lines but give them guidelines so the top guys (Y2J especially) can take advantage of his natural talent to say the right things at the right times on the fly.

Prufrock

Where do you start. The repeating storylines? Lazy story telling? Poor matches?

Theres just no incentive for me to watch WWE anymore. Which is ok really cause its being aimed at pre/early teen markets now. Kids don't really want compelling storylines they just want to turn up, see the good guy win and go home. Also they make for a terrible crowd so flat. The lack of atmosphere hurts WWE these days.

The lack of competition is a problem. Vince can ignore TNA as they are seemingly unable to catch up with WWE. All in all it's stale as Undertakers dead man persona.

gerrybbadd

I agree with a lot of Rooney10's points made here.

All of the very best characters (the Rock, Stone Cold, Y2J etc) made a lot of their stuff up on the mike the fly, moments before hitting the mike, & without scripts. Each of these guys also has been quoted as saying that the character they portray each week is just how they really are, with the volume turned way up past 11.

I also agree with the points made abou guest GM's... It was okay for 2 months or so, but now the Guest GM's aren't even making matches, and in the case of Timbaland, showed up sh*t-faced to present the show!

This needs to stop, even if they were to bring in Vickie Guerrero in as a full time GM - she's got some real heat - (and no, not Latino!!!) it'd be something.

Plus, the midget HAS to go....

Headshot

gerrybbadd wrote: »

I agree with a lot of Rooney10's points made here.

All of the very best characters (the Rock, Stone Cold, Y2J etc) made a lot of their stuff up on the mike the fly, moments before hitting the mike, & without scripts. Each of these guys also has been quoted as saying that the character they portray each week is just how they really are, with the volume turned way up past 11.

I also agree with the points made abou guest GM's... It was okay for 2 months or so, but now the Guest GM's aren't even making matches, and in the case of Timbaland, showed up sh*t-faced to present the show!

This needs to stop, even if they were to bring in Vickie Guerrero in as a full time GM - she's got some real heat - (and no, not Latino!!!) it'd be something.

Plus, the midget HAS to go....

I hate him, i really do

any time he's in a promo i fast forward it

how Vince finds that funny, ill never know

gerrybbadd

Headshot wrote: »

I hate him, i really do

any time he's in a promo i fast forward it

how Vince finds that funny, ill never know

Correct Sir, I really do feel your pain.

As well, I now consider Smackdown to be the No. 1 show, where the actual wrestling is done. Raw is about the backstage skits, & DX trying to flog their merch.... (which was funny the first time 4 years ago)

I don't even bother with ECW anymore.

waltersobchak

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Correct Sir, I really do feel your pain.

As well, I now consider Smackdown to be the No. 1 show, where the actual wrestling is done. Raw is about the backstage skits, & DX trying to flog their merch.... (which was funny the first time 4 years ago)

I don't even bother with ECW anymore.

+1
Smackdowns been the best and most consistent WWE show for years