Why Is There a Munster Dominance in the AIL

mk1600

WHY?

Podge_irl

I don't know the ins and outs, but one possible reason is that Munster use the AIL far more as a recruitment and training tool than Leinster do and I imainge (though am not sure) that Munster academy and prospective players play more in the AIL then their counterparts in Leinster. I might also point out that Leinster clubs have been doing alright in the league recently but have serious problems competing come knock out stages, which is something that will hopefully change with experience.

anonymous_joe

Less clubs.

Within about a mile of me are, off the top of my head, Monkstown RFC, Railway Union, Bective, Old Wesley, Old Belvedere, Landsdowne and Wanderers.

Dublin has about two or three dozen teams alone. Limerick about four, Cork has three or four?

In the same way that Munster has less players than Leinster, each Leinster club has less players than each Munster club. Usually.

Podge_irl

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Less clubs.

Within about a mile of me are, off the top of my head, Monkstown RFC, Railway Union, Bective, Old Wesley, Old Belvedere, Landsdowne and Wanderers.

Dublin has about two or three dozen teams alone. Limerick about four, Cork has three or four?

In the same way that Munster has less players than Leinster, each Leinster club has less players than each Munster club. Usually.

Fewer dude, fewer.

(sorry, its as bugbear of mine that I was gonna let slide til you did it about seven hundred times in one post).

In a rugby related point, I agree with you though.

anonymous_joe

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fewer dude, fewer.

(sorry, its as bugbear of mine that I was gonna let slide til you did it about seven hundred times in one post).

In a rugby related point, I agree with you though.

It's... 3:58. I've had a lot of beers. Right now, grammatical improprieties are pretty much near the bottom of my list of priorities. In the morning I'll probably be desolate at such an abysmal decline in linguistic standards, but for now, I'm too drunk to pretend to give a fcuk.

Rugby wise, yup, I'm right. Too many players spread too thin.

murphym7

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Less clubs.

Within about a mile of me are, off the top of my head, Monkstown RFC, Railway Union, Bective, Old Wesley, Old Belvedere, Landsdowne and Wanderers.

Dublin has about two or three dozen teams alone. Limerick about four, Cork has three or four?

In the same way that Munster has less players than Leinster, each Leinster club has less players than each Munster club. Usually.

Not 100% correct on that one - in Cork city alone we have UCC, Dolphin, Con, Sundays Well, Highfield. Near the city we have Middleton, Douglas, Crosshaven, Ballincollig, Bandon, Cobh Pirates, Old Chrisitans etc etc

Limerick clubs Shannon, Garryowen, Young Munster, UL Boh's, Old Crescent, Thomand, Bruff etc - Also with less population than Leinster - Maybe Munster AIL club's are just doing a little better, not too hard to imagine - is it?? I don't aggree with the argument that Munster clubs do beter because Leinster have more clubs and players are stretched to thinly amongst all of them.

anonymous_joe

murphym7 wrote: »

Not 100% correct on that one - in Cork city alone we have UCC, Dolphin, Con, Sundays Well, Highfield. Near the city we have Middleton, Douglas, Crosshaven, Ballincollig, Bandon, Cobh Pirates, Old Chrisitans etc etc

Limerick clubs Shannon, Garryowen, Young Munster, UL Boh's, Old Crescent, Thomand, Bruff etc - Also with less population than Leinster - Maybe Munster AIL club's are just doing a little better, not too hard to imagine - is it?? I don't aggree with the argument that Munster clubs do beter because Leinster have more clubs and players are stretched to thinly amongst all of them.

Well it's not an issue of 'my provincial AIL Clubs are bigger than yours' or anything like that. Merely that in my experience there are far more clubs in Leinster, especially in Dublin, splitting the player pool between them.

murphym7

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Well it's not an issue of 'my provincial AIL Clubs are bigger than yours' or anything like that. Merely that in my experience there are far more clubs in Leinster, especially in Dublin, splitting the player pool between them.

I am not saying that at all, I just wanted to point out that your estimates of the number of clubs was way off - I was also expressing my point of view that I think you are incorrect, IMO, about your reasoning why Munster clubs seems to do well in the AIL. I would contend that there are probably a proporsional number of clubs in both provinces in relation to the populations.

Spiritoftheseventies

They do to an extent but clontarf have done very well in AIL in last few seasons. Was crazy how they lost last years final on virtue of shannon scoring first try. Overall You could argue that munster just seem to be more passionate about their sport. Could be down to the rivalries down there as well.
.

anonymous_joe

murphym7 wrote: »

I am not saying that at all, I just wanted to point out that your estimates of the number of clubs was way off - I was also expressing my point of view that I think you are incorrect, IMO, about your reasoning why Munster clubs seems to do well in the AIL. I would contend that there are probably a proporsional number of clubs in both provinces in relation to the populations.

Well I'll put it to you this way, I live in D4. The clubs I was mentioning are all in D4. I didn't mention clubs in and around Clontarf, Terenure, Dalkey/Killiney, etc. Then there's all like Barnhall etc out wesht. There are huge numbers of clubs here. Probably too many.

bamboozle

there are 2 main reasons why Munster clubs are stronger in the AIL;
As mentioned by many on this thread there are far more clubs in Leinster, provincial players are being allocated/spread across a greater number of clubs in Leinster whereas in Munster the majority of contracted players are with Shannon, Con, Garryowen, Dolphin & UL Bohs, i think hayes is with Bruff and POC is with Young Munsters.

the second reason and the main reason in my view is that the Munster management places a far greater emphasis on the AIL and on their relationships with the clubs, an example being last weekend Marcus Horan, Donncadh Ryan and James Coughlan all were on the bench for Munster in the HC, they all also represented their clubs the following day
Dolphin had James Coughlan, Dave Ryan and Julian Brugnaut in their pack which beat St. Mary's but for injury nick williams would have also played. Shannon had Marcus Horan, Donncadh Ryan and Jerry Flannery in their pack which beat UL Bohs.
Come up to Leinster and you just dont see any members of the Leinster 22 involved in AIL action, prior to making the 22 Paul O'Donoghue had a few runs with Clontarf this season, take Mike Ross as an example, he plays a role in Leinster as 4th choice prop behind Healy, CJ and Wright, yet despite getting very little game time for Leinster he has not played 1 minute for his club in the AIL all season.
No matter how well drilled and fit your team is, if you come up against a team with 3 or 4 contracted players in their pack you are going to be steamrolled.
this is not an anti Munster rant, if anything i'm saluting the Munster Mgt for allowing players play in the AIL, i only wish Leinster Mgt would follow suit.

Digifriendly

Was at Dungannon vs UCC last Saturday (AIL 1A). If there were 100 watching that was the height of it. I paid £8 to see a standard of rugby which to be honest is one of the poorest I've seen for some time. BTW UCC were deserving winners but I fear the splitting of Division 1 into 2 sections is a bad move and AFAIK Dungannon are facing financial problems as their gates are reduced with no visit from clubs like Shannon, Garryowen etc. I fear for the future of the club game here in Ulster with our top 3 clubs (Ballynahinch/Ballymena/Dungannon) all now battling to stave off relegation to Division 2.

dyl10

More clubs in Leinster, but more players.
Maybe the lesser presence of a class breakdown in Limerick is a factor?

Podge_irl

dyl10 wrote: »

More clubs in Leinster, but more players.
Maybe the lesser presence of a class breakdown in Limerick is a factor?

:rolleyes:

Tim Robbins

Podge_irl wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's a super question OP as the standard of senior club rugby in Limerick is of an outstanding standard considering the amount that play it and the standard of play at schools and youth level.

The only thing I'd say is I think Clontarf have been robbed of the AIL twice now. And as for Clontarf you could make similar arguments to Limerick there in that they are the strongest team in Dublin and are a Northside team where Rugby isn't as strong.

Logic would suggest that Blackrock should be winning the AIL as much as they win the SCT, but they have never been super strong in AIL.

I think the reason why the Dublin clubs aren't as strong is because everything is so focussed on schools. In Limerick, there is much more focus and pride for the club. So players go the extra mile whereas in Dublin interest drops off when Setanta sports and the Irish times pull back.

Aidric

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think the reason why the Dublin clubs aren't as strong is because everything is so focussed on schools. In Limerick, there is much more focus and pride for the club. So players go the extra mile whereas in Dublin interest drops off when Setanta sports and the Irish times pull back.

That's exactly it imo. Club Rugby in Limerick has much more of a community ethic and tradition.

pappyodaniel

I remember going to Munster Schools Cup Senior Final a few years back between Munchins (LK) and PBC (Cork). Before the game I was leafing through the player profiles from each team. These profiles had a Questions and Answers part and one of the questions was "what do you want to do after leaving school?" The PBC guys answered the question with things like, "study law at UCC", "do medicine", "accountancy", "work with AIB" etc etc....

The Munchins guys on the other hand had answers like "play for Munster", "win the World Cup in EA Rugby for the Playstation" "play for Ireland", etc etc...

I'm sorry I haven't answered your question but I think the story tells ya something about your average person from Limerick.

danthefan

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I remember going to Munster Schools Cup Senior Final a few years back between Munchins (LK) and PBC (Cork). Before the game I was leafing through the player profiles from each team. These profiles had a Questions and Answers part and one of the questions was "what do you want to do after leaving school?" The PBC guys answered the question with things like, "study law at UCC", "do medicine", "accountancy", "work with AIB" etc etc....

The Munchins guys on the other hand had answers like "play for Munster", "win the World Cup in EA Rugby for the Playstation" "play for Ireland", etc etc...

I'm sorry I haven't answered your question but I think the story tells ya something about your average person from Limerick.

Surely it just says something about the average Munchins Senior Cup player?

anonymous_joe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's a super question OP as the standard of senior club rugby in Limerick is of an outstanding standard considering the amount that play it and the standard of play at schools and youth level.

The only thing I'd say is I think Clontarf have been robbed of the AIL twice now. And as for Clontarf you could make similar arguments to Limerick there in that they are the strongest team in Dublin and are a Northside team where Rugby isn't as strong.

Logic would suggest that Blackrock should be winning the AIL as much as they win the SCT, but they have never been super strong in AIL.

I think the reason why the Dublin clubs aren't as strong is because everything is so focussed on schools. In Limerick, there is much more focus and pride for the club. So players go the extra mile whereas in Dublin interest drops off when Setanta sports and the Irish times pull back.

Well Rock aren't entirely a school team. Plenty of their players aren't ex Rock boys.

In all fairness, when looking at Dublin clubs, if Dublin had no more than 10 clubs, you could probably come up with a couple of teams that would rival the likes of Connacht in terms of player base.

Because of the huge numbers, there's very few community clubs. I mean, Old Belvedere are near enough to be. They're hardly a 'community' club. And of course, f all Belvo lads live near the club either. So who do they represent?

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I remember going to Munster Schools Cup Senior Final a few years back between Munchins (LK) and PBC (Cork). Before the game I was leafing through the player profiles from each team. These profiles had a Questions and Answers part and one of the questions was "what do you want to do after leaving school?" The PBC guys answered the question with things like, "study law at UCC", "do medicine", "accountancy", "work with AIB" etc etc....

The Munchins guys on the other hand had answers like "play for Munster", "win the World Cup in EA Rugby for the Playstation" "play for Ireland", etc etc...

I'm sorry I haven't answered your question but I think the story tells ya something about your average person from Limerick.

That they've really low aspirations? :P

In all fairness, I saw somewhere that rugby is the professional sport most likely to lose players to other jobs, because its players are often highly educated and pros don't make that much money. I think it's Eoghan Hickey in England who was in college with a mate's brother, but there'd be plenty of examples of guys with degrees in law, medicine, accountancy, etc, all of which could offer comparable salaries in terms of the overall career.

Amazotheamazing

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's a super question OP as the standard of senior club rugby in Limerick is of an outstanding standard considering the amount that play it and the standard of play at schools and youth level.

I think the reason why the Dublin clubs aren't as strong is because everything is so focussed on schools. In Limerick, there is much more focus and pride for the club. So players go the extra mile whereas in Dublin interest drops off when Setanta sports and the Irish times pull back.

I think you're right about the club ethos in Limerick. For example, there's a Munster u20's player called Kelleher who was wanted by the top tier of the AIL clubs in Limerick but he chose to spend the season with his club Richmond to see if they could get promoted. If he had moved he'd be far closer to getting into the Munster Academy and maybe Irish underage teams but he's sticking by his club for now. Same with the Thomond outhalf, Cusack, think Garryowen tried to sign him but he stayed with Thomond in Ail 2 (he's still getting games with Munster A), and of course, there's Diarmuid McCarthy, turned down a place in the Munster Academy, turned down a place in the Munster u20's side, but still plays for Garryowen's senior team. Club loyalties are pretty strong. Very often you'll get a guy who doesn't play with his school just to stick with his club.

bamboozle

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's a super question OP as the standard of senior club rugby in Limerick is of an outstanding standard considering the amount that play it and the standard of play at schools and youth level.

The only thing I'd say is I think Clontarf have been robbed of the AIL twice now. And as for Clontarf you could make similar arguments to Limerick there in that they are the strongest team in Dublin and are a Northside team where Rugby isn't as strong.

Logic would suggest that Blackrock should be winning the AIL as much as they win the SCT, but they have never been super strong in AIL.

I think the reason why the Dublin clubs aren't as strong is because everything is so focussed on schools. In Limerick, there is much more focus and pride for the club. So players go the extra mile whereas in Dublin interest drops off when Setanta sports and the Irish times pull back.

maybe i'm being bitter but i can think of 3 times Clontarf were robbed of the AIL title, first time in 2003 when they were beaten in final by Ballymena who had 9 Ulster contracted players turn out that day who had rarely been seen in club colours all season, in 2006 things were touch and go up to 60 mins in the final between Clontarf & Shannon until Shannon brought on Buckley,Quinlan and Keogh and ran away with it while we were denied access to our Leinster contracted players, finally last season the IRFU tightened up ruling as to how contracted players can appear in the AIL semi final & final then we lost on the bizarre first try is winner rule!!!

On the flip side, Clontarf have not lost on their last 5 visits to Thomond Park...how about that for a record!

Still for anyone who has been to an AIL IA game this season there is a huge increase in the standard from previous seasons, long may it continue.

Amazotheamazing

bamboozle wrote: »

maybe i'm being bitter but i can think of 3 times Clontarf were robbed of the AIL title, first time in 2003 when they were beaten in final by Ballymena who had 9 Ulster contracted players turn out that day who had rarely been seen in club colours all season, in 2006 things were touch and go up to 60 mins in the final between Clontarf & Shannon until Shannon brought on Buckley,Quinlan and Keogh and ran away with it while we were denied access to our Leinster contracted players, finally last season the IRFU tightened up ruling as to how contracted players can appear in the AIL semi final & final then we lost on the bizarre first try is winner rule!!!

On the flip side, Clontarf have not lost on their last 5 visits to Thomond Park...how about that for a record!

Still for anyone who has been to an AIL IA game this season there is a huge increase in the standard from previous seasons, long may it continue.

No sympathy at all for Clontarf, it was disgraceful buying in 15 players when they had just barely lost last years final, what a kick in the teeth to last years team.

TheGod

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

there's Diarmuid McCarthy, turned down a place in the Munster Academy, turned down a place in the Munster u20's side, but still plays for Garryowen's senior team. Club loyalties are pretty strong. Very often you'll get a guy who doesn't play with his school just to stick with his club.

Diarmuid McCarthy turned down a place because he didn't want the extra training commitments at this stage in his life. My cousin is good friends with him. Sad but true.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No sympathy at all for Clontarf, it was disgraceful buying in 15 players when they had just barely lost last years final, what a kick in the teeth to last years team.

half of last season's squad had left, retired or moved up to provincial contracts. But the influx of a large number of players has been reflected in poor disjointed performances on the pitch. Show me a team in the AIL who hasnt bought in players.

Amazotheamazing

TheGod wrote: »

Diarmuid McCarthy turned down a place because he didn't want the extra training commitments at this stage in his life. My cousin is good friends with him. Sad but true.

His call, it's a pity though, because he has enough talent to be a top level pro, possibly even an International. That being said, it's just a sport, no point making it out to be a life or death thing.

Amazotheamazing

bamboozle wrote: »

half of last season's squad had left, retired or moved up to provincial contracts. But the influx of a large number of players has been reflected in poor disjointed performances on the pitch. Show me a team in the AIL who hasnt bought in players.

Of course every team will bring in players, but virtually a new team?