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  • 20-01-2010 4:09pm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭


    This Infrastructure forum is going well and it's a lot easier to find threads since threads in Commuting and Transport were deleted/moved.

    It's getting a bit messy now though and harder to find relevant threads.

    Because of this, I suggest that sub-forums be established within Infrastructure, if that's possible.

    I suggest this structure:


    A. Transport Infrastructure.

    i. Roads
    a. National Primary Roads & Motorways
    b. National Secondary Roads
    c. Regional and Local Roads
    d. Roads - General

    ii. Railways

    iii. Airports

    iv. Seaports

    v. All other Transport Infrastructure

    B. Non-Transport Infrastructure

    i. Communications

    ii. Electricity

    iii. Water & Sewage

    iv. All other non-Transport Infrastructure

    C. Off-Topic

    What do ye think?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    We'll definitely have a think about it.

    I too have noticed we have so many road-threads they're nearly crushing the other threads! If there's one sub-forum we need, it's one to stick all the road stuff in.

    I'm not sure discussions are developed well enough to warrant all the suggested sub forums.

    Perhaps we could have:

    Infrastructure - just a general infrastructure forum with charter, topics which might not fit into sub forums etc.

    > Transport
    > Energy & Communications
    > Water & Water Management
    > Other

    How does that sound?

    Anyone else got any other suggestions perhaps?

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious

    I was thinking we could have sub forums for like

    M1 (N2)

    M3 (N3)








    All mortorways as one sub forum. This would allow people to post pictures, updates, news and discussion into each section. This is kinda done on Sabre with the photo section. I think this would be a brillant idea.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney

    I would just stick the roads in one subforum for the time being and leave everything else in the main forum.

    Maybe the main forum wouldn't get as much interest then though?

    Is it really too much all in the one forum at the moment? I mean there are still usually fewer active threads daily than in C&T.

    One thing is that the number of stickies has accumulated to a large degree - although probably most or even all of the threads stickied can do with regular attention, it probably doesn't work having more than 4/5 and there are currently 9.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭nordydan

    Agree that there are too many stickies, but a good addition at the top of this, or a potential roads subforum, would be a simple sticky list of the predicted opening dates of under construction road projects in forward chronological, soonest first e.g.

    • M9: Carlow Knocktopher - 6 April 2010
    • M50: Phase 2 - 12 June 2010
    • M18: Gort Crusheen - 6 July 2010
    • M3: Clonee Kells - 12 August 2010
    • A1: Newry Bypass - 3 September 2010
    • M7: Nenagh Limerick - 2 October 2011
    etc. Just sample dates above.

    It is easy to miss news of a revised opening dates due to the clutter of posts, and if anyone askes a general query regarding expected opening dates they can be directed to the sticky thread. Just a suggestion :D

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    Maybe a "Current Infrastructure Projects Progress" thread or something.

    That could work. :)

    @Zoney, I definitely want to get the roads stuff into its own subforum at least, so that perhaps attention can be given to other aspects of Infrastructure. Once those discussions have been built up (it may take months), then perhaps we could consider more sub forums?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭nordydan

    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Maybe a "Current Infrastructure Projects Progress" thread or something.

    That could work. :)

    That's it exactly, the first post could be the summary list of projects and revised dated, with updates posted below.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    nordydan wrote: »
    That's it exactly, the first post could be the summary list of projects and revised dated, with updates posted below.

    Okay, that's cool with me.

    If somebody wishes to make the thread I'll immediately sticky it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭nordydan

    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Okay, that's cool with me.

    If somebody wishes to make the thread I'll immediately sticky it.

    I'll whip something up, the dates can be modified afterwards

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob

    Roads will die a death in a year , I would let Darwinism prevail.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick

    subforums suck
    I don't like subforums. This one got shag all traffic when it was a subforum of C&T

    isn't search working again?
    the L road numbers thread was found and brought up recently as an example.

    what about taging non-roads threads with some easily searchably tag until they grow to outumber the roads?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann

    I agree with SpongeBob and Carawaystick.

    I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I spent HOURS creating the Index thread so that threads could be easily found. If people would tag their own threads when they submit them using standard tags, things would be easier to find.

    I don't like sub-forums myself - I don't think they serve a good purpose unless a forum is mega busy - and this one isn't. Plus, as Sponge Bob says, within ten months there will be very few road threads still active. At that point I think the forum will become very quiet once more, unless the other threads - which are small but of high quality - attract more posts.

    Basically, split the forum now and I suspect you'll need to merge it all together again when the road-building buzz dies down before the the end of the year. At that point, any roads sub-forum could well resemble a museum.

    Just my two cents...

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    Well it's all still very much speculative, there's no definite plan or anything set in motion.

    But the number of roads threads is simply overwhelming, SOMETHING needs to be done to make threads easier to find or organise stuff better.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann

    Well, something I always thought might be a runner would be to have a separate forum altogether for roads. This wouldn't be a sub-forum, but a forum in its own right. I definitely think it would be a goer (and in fairness, if David Hasselhoff can have a forum, why can't roadgeeks?). It would be a dedicated mini-SABRE here on boards. All the main road threads could be moved from here to there, leaving this one free to concentrate on all other types of infrastructure. I think there are advantages and disadvantages - but a reconstituted and renamed Infrastructure forum devoid of road threads has the potential to attract new blood who might otherwise be put off by all the roads.

    So basically my attitude is summed up as follows:

    In the interim, if you can't find a thread, look it up in the index - it IS there.

    In the medium-term, Do NOT create a subforum. This is a 'do-nothing' scenario as many EIS readers will know.
    But, if something IS to be done, then be bold and radical and press the Admins to give us a fully-fledged Roadfan Forum, leaving infrastructure to be re-named and dedicated to Water, Housing, Energy and Communications. C&T can handle rail: They do anyway.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3

    Furet, the new forum for roads is a good idea.

    Myself and BluntGuy are discussing all options at the minute and were taking in all yer opinions on improving the forum. If we do decide to go ahead and request for a new forum for roads it will need to be posted into this request forum page first:

    Forums Approved & Rejected

    Also other users approval onto that thread will help the process. We need every user we can get on this forum to post on that thread really to show we really want the new forum to be created.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann

    Well, I'll lend my support if that's the general consensus. The support of three mods plus a rake of regular users should mean that it'll get done.

    I would say, though, that if we as a community do go down this, er, 'path' (not using road as a pun), that the Infrastructure forum itself will need to be renamed into something much more specific. Thought needs to be given too to the name of any road forum. It needs to be more formal than 'Roadfans' but maybe a little more catchy than 'Roads'.

    This is the link, btw.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916

    Hi folks. Good to be back! :)

    Thanks for the answers - I think the setting up of a separate forum for Roads is the best way to go.

    Has anyone requested a Roads forum to be set up yet?

    If not, please discuss the reasons for setting up a new Roads forum (exact name to be decided) on this thread, so that we can combine our efforts and make the best case possible when we post a request:

    My main reasons:

    1. the Infrastructure forum is dominated (imbalanced in fact) by discussions of roads. Setting up a new Roads forum would end this imbalance and allow for easier discussion of other types of Infrastructure.

    2. Roads discussion within the Infrastructure is dominated by discussion of new Irish roads, either built or under construction. Setting up a new roads forum would allow for discussion of roads in general, not just in Ireland, which will continue even if/when current major Irish projects are completed.

    3. A Roads sub-forum would be 'lost' within Infrastructure. However, the amount of threads on roads within Infrastructure means that it can be hard to find threads on roads. Setting up a Roads forum would obviously make it easier to find threads on roads, and would stimulate discussions on roads by knowlegeable contributors.

    4. Ireland doesn't have a dedicated Roads forum, unlike the UK or other countries (examples include Sabre: A forum within is the ideal place, since a full-scale, stand-alone forum would probably be too much for now but a sub-forum (or series of threads) within Infrastructure is probably too little.

    A new Roads forum within would strike the right balance for now.

    If anyone else has got other good reasons why a Roads forum should be set up (including a decent name) then please post them here.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann

    Excellent reasons, Marmurr - my thoughts exactly. I'd like to hear what others think too - as well as Blunt's view. BTW, Marmurr, I suggest you use your text above as the OP for any thread requesting the creation of a roads forum.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    I'm a little tired right now, so my articulation might not be great, but I'll give my opinion:

    My own personal view is that as a moderator here, I along with my co-mods (Tech2 and previously Furet) have been trying to diversify the forum so that it isn't so road-centric, so that topics on different types of Infrastructure can be discussed. That has worked to a degree, there are a number of excellent threads on non-road infrastructure.

    But our success in this area is limited by the fact that the majority of contributors here are mainly focussed on roads, and the dominance of road threads probably puts off people who'd discuss other types of infrastructure from creating threads in this forum.

    We didn't want to artificially "force" a balance by telling people to stop creating road-related threads, because we have a collective wealth of knowledge, expertise and passion in this area, and we would absolutely hate to surpress it. But the growing consensus is that the number of roads threads is getting excessive and almost strangling other types of discussions.

    The idea of sub-forums or an additional forum as a solution to this was almost inevitable. In fact, I remember the idea first being casually suggested a few months ago.

    A new forum, I do feel, would be a good idea. Marmurr pretty much outlines exactly the reasons I would endorse it. From a moderator point of view, it would help us immensely to create a more expanded infrastructure forum which encourages all types of discussions.

    The roads forum would be very familiar and have a charter based on the ideas and needs of roads posters in this forum. It would help us focus on developments such as expanding OpenStreetMap, archiving photographs, and even the possible establishment of a dedicated roads website in time.

    Possible names for a new roads forum: Roads and Road Development, Road Systems, Road Infrastructure... they're probably not very good, but I'm tired heh.

    I give my support to this idea, but I'm still going to have to talk to Tech2 about how we would split the forums, the subject of moderation and other practical issues.

    I'll try and give a more detailed account of my thoughts at a later date.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR

    I'm not sure. I do agree that the road threads sort of overpower other infrastructure threads but, on the other hand, I do like having everything in the one place...

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    Well we have to look at this from all angles.

    We've ruled out a sub-forum it seems.

    I guess, the re-assuring thing is, if this doesn't work, we can always re-integrate the forum with Infrastructure. But I'd rather we went into this fully-assured it will work and not have to do a u-turn later on.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann

    I've proposed the creation of a roads forum here. Comments, whether positive or negative, are required. So get thee forthwith yonder!

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy

    I'm not so sure about renaming Infrastructure, now that I think about it.

    We could rename it Energy, Communications and Water but sure, there's already threads for those things in general. We're specifically about the Infrastructure here more than the general issues.

    That said, something would have to be provided in this forum to let people know that roads are not discussed here (unless they fall under the umbrella of a general discussion on transport infrastructure). The charter would have to be modified to tell people "All types of Infrastructure are discussed here, apart from Road Infrastructure, which now has its own forum".

    Also, we should start putting down maybe a few ideas for a roads forum charter, so that whoever moderates the new forum has something to work off. Speaking of which, myself and Tech2 are going to discuss the issue of moderation at length, both for this forum and the new one. If you have any input on that issue, please post it here.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3

    I'm not sure about renaming the Infrastructure forum either, a good idea would be to have a sticky with a thread saying "looking for road infrastrucutre click here" and it will navigate users to the new forum which would be created for roads. Also we will update the forum charter to reflect this.

    I'm in support for a new forum dedicated to road infrastructure as the amount of threads created/discussed here needs it's own. This will in turn give more freedom for other topics such as water treatment, broadband, etc to prosper. More users who would be interested in this type of Infrastructre will log onto here more often as road topics wont push the threads down several pages to find.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916

    Excellent! The ball is rolling now. I've posted on Furet's thread and urge everyone else to post too.

    Mebbe we should canvass support from a few of the folks at Commuting & Transport and Motoring?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney

    I don't know that it is clearcut. Rather than giving space for "other infrastructure" perhaps removing the roads would simply mean less eyeballs on the other infrastructure threads? I know that with C&T, a new road infrastructure forum, and SABRE, I'd be less likely to check it myself (it would be a fourth forum).

    Plus road infrastructure *is* part of infrastructure generally, and the non-infrastructure issues are already covered in C&T.

    The idea of a "road geek" forum may be appealing to those wishing to discuss roads minutiae etc. - but I think to some extent people don't hold back from that anyway even on C&T nevermind Infrastructure, and surely it doesn't pollute discussion much for the more casual posters? (indeed is there even such a concept in "infrastructure" - even if there certainly is in C&T)

    I'm beginning to think it is fairly natural to keep things together in Infrastructure and that the same kind of people will post on rail and even other Infrastructure as would be inclined to post on roads. Also the argument that roads infrastructure posting will die down soon enough is a good one also.

    I'd reiterate my earlier comments that I don't think the thread traffic is in fact that high here, even if there are quite a number of threads on different roads (many are likely to simply be posted on from time to time). However, the mods may of course have a more experienced view on this and it maybe is handier for organisation to have the content separated, I don't know for sure myself.

    Anyways, I'd say it's probably best to give some time for discussion. I haven't definitively made up my mind yet myself.