Wedding Reception Cancellation - Deposit Non-Refundable

kormak

Hi Folks,

Question (which probably has a fairly obvious answer!)
But I thought i'd run it by the experts.
We have had to cancel our wedding reception venue due to unforeseen finances. The wedding is this summer.
We had already paid a deposit (as part of a contract) of €2000 to the venue.
I understand that the contract says "non-refundable".
however when we phoned the hotel (already pretty pissed off with things) to try claim it back.... they were pretty much hard-nosed about the whole thing and said No!, No! No!
They reckon it has affected business for the following day (as they don't allow bookings the day after your wedding).
and that the only way we'll get our deposit back is that if they can get another booking for that day or the next.
(but sure how do we know that?! )
I fully understand they have the right to do this, but was abit taken aback by the sheer bluntness of it all. I thought they may have even given 50% back on compassionate terms.

what's your opinion on this? any advice on this is greatly appreciated.

BC

Do you think you could move the wedding to next year? If you were willing to re-book another date they might be willing to be more flexible?

The point of a deposit is really to protect the hotel in the case of something like this. Unfortunately they are probably feeling the pinch as much as you.
You could go on some wedding websites such as weddingsonline and let people know that date in that venue is free in case people were interested in it.

kormak

Nah, we're getting married this year and that's final.
just gonna settle for a cheaper (and surpisngly just as nice) alternative venue.
good idea about flagging it to weddings online.
I didn't want to use the hotel's name though...?

Turbulent Bill

kormak wrote: »

Nah, we're getting married this year and that's final.
just gonna settle for a cheaper (and surpisngly just as nice) alternative venue.
good idea about flagging it to weddings online.
I didn't want to use the hotel's name though...?

Is the new place €2000 cheaper? You could try to sell/transfer your deposit (with the hotel's knowledge and/or cooperation), but I think you're unlikely to get the full value back even if another couple wants the date.

How Strange

You book a hotel for a wedding and pay a deposit which you know when paying it is non refundable.
You find another venue afterwards which is cheaper so you cancel with the first hotel.
You want to negotiate with the first hotel to refund at least 50% of your non refundable deposit.
They refuse and you're offended.

What did you expect from them? They're running a business in tough times and you've pulled the rug from under them for an event. They mightn't have sugar coated their response but even if they did I'm sure they still would've said no.

How would you feel if they rang you up and said 'sorry, we got a couple who are willing to pay more than you are to have their reception on the same day so we've cancelled yours'.

kormak

How Strange wrote: »

You book a hotel for a wedding and pay a deposit which you know when paying it is non refundable.
You find another venue afterwards which is cheaper so you cancel with the first hotel.
You want to negotiate with the first hotel to refund at least 50% of your non refundable deposit.
They refuse and you're offended.

What did you expect from them? They're running a business in tough times and you've pulled the rug from under them for an event. They mightn't have sugar coated their response but even if they did I'm sure they still would've said no.

How would you feel if they rang you up and said 'sorry, we got a couple who are willing to pay more than you are to have their reception on the same day so we've cancelled yours'.

How Strange, you make it sound like we planned it!
we were/are forced to find an alternative venue due to financial pressure.
i'm sure there's hundreds of other couples out there with similar burdens right now.
our alternative venue may well be a marquee in our back garden by the way.
also i never said i was offended by the 1st hotels refusal, i think you'll find i said i understand these decisions.
I said i was a little taken aback by their blunt refusal.
I know people who work in different hotels around the country and some advise that hotels can indeed repay their clients on compasionate grounds.
obviously this is also down to them been able to counteract their losses, etc...
finally, you're right! they are running a business... a customer serving business.
Hotels (by sheers word of mouth) can acquire bad names just as easy as they acquire good ones.

Trampas

Have to agree with How Strange here.

Compassionate grounds to me would be along the lines of serious illness, death or something that resulted in you not be able to have you reception.

Who did you talk to when you decided to cancel your booking?

Maybe dropping into the hotel might have been better than over the phone as the person on the phone might not be in a position to refund your part/all of your deposit and only doing their job.

Maybe you could have renegotiated the price per head and make a few changes to lower the price?

How Strange

kormak wrote: »

we were/are forced to find an alternative venue due to financial pressure. I know people who work in different hotels around the country and some advise that hotels can indeed repay their clients on compasionate grounds.

But these aren't compassionate grounds. Compassionate grounds would be, god forbid, one of you had a serious illness or something tragic happened resulting in you needing to cancel the wedding.

Hotels (by sheers word of mouth) can acquire bad names just as easy as they acquire good ones.

True but even if you mentioned the hotel here it wouldn't reflect badly on them or their reputation. They are a business, you are a client, you signed a contract and now you want to break it. The reasons for breaking the contract are personal to you and save considering exceptional compassionate grounds as you say it really doesn't matter to them the reasons why.

I am sympathetic to the situation you find yourself in but you signed a contract and the best thing you can do is try to sell the date to another couple to recoup part of your losses

Circumstances have meant you have to change your plans but you can't reasonably expect the hotel to refund a non refundable deposit.

tatli_lokma

kormak wrote: »

and that the only way we'll get our deposit back is that if they can get another booking for that day or the next.
(but sure how do we know that?! )

okay well, firstly I do agree that 'compassionate' grounds as far a business is concerned would not stretch to you no longer being able to afford it, so I see that point, but then the sneaky side of me, who dislikes how some hotels overcharge for a party because it is a wedding party than a standard party.....well that part of me says this......

Get it in writing that they will refund your deposit if they get an alternative booking. Then get someone you know to d make a booking for the hotel for your day. give them the money to pay a deposit. This time don't hand over €2000, but €500 or €1000. Then you can legitimately go back and look for your deposit back, knowing the day has been booked by another party on that same day - you get half or more of your deposit back. Cancel the 'new booking' - you know you will loose that deposit, but hopefully it will be less than your original deposit.

The person making the 'new' booking needs to be prepared to haggle on the deposit. This is something I notice people tend not to do - I gave no deposit until a week before the big day and then only €500. That way if anything went wrong my deposit wasn't too huge.

Sneaky, yes, but €2k is a lot of money! Whilst I do understand that the hotel is a business, blah blah, to first off ask for €2k deposit in the first place, and then want to hang onto it for doing nothing, well I think that is a bit greedy of them.

How far ahead is this wedding? if its in 3-4 mths, fair enough they have a point, but if its 6+ mths, well then I think they need to come to some sort of a compromise.

Also, another question, I know you mentioned a 'contract' but did you actually sign anything accepting the T&C's or get anything clearly stating that by paying the deposit you are accepting the T&C's? if you did not sign up to anything or get any receipt then you may have a legitimate claim that you have no contract with the hotel and therefore you may be able to argue for your deposit back.

thebiglad

I can sympathise with you but as a neutral, can see the hotel's point - the deposit guarantees the room for you and they have kept their end of the bargain - how would you feel if they said sorry but we have a booking for 200 guests so you wedding of 100 guests will have to go somewhere else, sorry about the short notice, hope you can find something.

Now to a suggestion -you are currently down £2,000 and about to pay for another venue.

Just how much are you paying for your new venue compared to the difference in cost between (lost) deposit and final expected payment.

Have you discussed with the hotel whether they can reduce some costs from the other end - i.e. cost per meal/drink/corkage etc - the hotel stand to miss out as well if they cannot get another booking for the room and may be flexible?

If you can shave off €5 per head on the meal and maybe consider whether you need reception drinks etc (again look at the extras for savings) and then you can stick with your current venue.

Obviously I do not know the figures involved and this is personal for you so not gonna ask you to post but, have you considered this as an approach?

Otherwise, its a case of get it in writing that the hotel will refund if there an another booking and somehow check on the day (if they have not been to you in advance) whether there is indeed another function arranged.

Clareman

I'm really sorry for you and I can imagine that you would find the 2k very handy to have back, you are reliant on the hotels good graces, you might want to check out insurance http://www.weddinginsurance.ie/ for such things

dollybird2

A decent marquee and everything that goes with it is generally more expensive than a hotel so if you are trying to keep finances down I would scratch that idea.

Turbulent Bill

Cincikchick wrote: »

okay well, firstly I do agree that 'compassionate' grounds as far a business is concerned would not stretch to you no longer being able to afford it, so I see that point, but then the sneaky side of me, who dislikes how some hotels overcharge for a party because it is a wedding party than a standard party.....well that part of me says this......

Get it in writing that they will refund your deposit if they get an alternative booking. Then get someone you know to d make a booking for the hotel for your day. give them the money to pay a deposit. This time don't hand over €2000, but €500 or €1000. Then you can legitimately go back and look for your deposit back, knowing the day has been booked by another party on that same day - you get half or more of your deposit back. Cancel the 'new booking' - you know you will loose that deposit, but hopefully it will be less than your original deposit.

The person making the 'new' booking needs to be prepared to haggle on the deposit. This is something I notice people tend not to do - I gave no deposit until a week before the big day and then only €500. That way if anything went wrong my deposit wasn't too huge.

Sneaky, yes, but €2k is a lot of money! Whilst I do understand that the hotel is a business, blah blah, to first off ask for €2k deposit in the first place, and then want to hang onto it for doing nothing, well I think that is a bit greedy of them.

How far ahead is this wedding? if its in 3-4 mths, fair enough they have a point, but if its 6+ mths, well then I think they need to come to some sort of a compromise.

Also, another question, I know you mentioned a 'contract' but did you actually sign anything accepting the T&C's or get anything clearly stating that by paying the deposit you are accepting the T&C's? if you did not sign up to anything or get any receipt then you may have a legitimate claim that you have no contract with the hotel and therefore you may be able to argue for your deposit back.

What you're suggesting is fraud, plain and simple, and is almost guaranteed to make a bad situation worse. The hotel may have been blunt but are perfectly within their rights to keep the deposit. The T&Cs usually state that by signing them you accept to pay whatever deposit is stated, that it's non-refundable etc.

OP, unless your new venue is much, much cheaper than the one you booked I'd negoatiate with the original hotel on cost-per-head, guest numbers etc. From their perspective, if they cannot re-sell that date then the most they can make is €2000 (your unreturned deposit), whereas sales of guest rooms, food, bar bills etc. for your wedding could make them a bigger profit even though the your deposit is now going towards the bill. Would be worth considering. Whatever you do, don't burn your bridges with one venue before you have something else worked out!

kormak

Thanks for everyone's replies.
Like I've said I understand it from the hotels point of view.
we booked this date a good while ago (when things were better!)
and now we have to face facts and come clean to them.
we'll get it writing and keep an eye on the hotel's reservations for that date.
that's probably about the best we can do...

shame though...

tatli_lokma

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

What you're suggesting is fraud, plain and simple, and is almost guaranteed to make a bad situation worse.

sorry, how is it fraud? A bit sneaky, fair enough but fraud is a rather harsh word for it. the hotel said they would refund if they got another booking, all I am suggesting is trying to ensure there is another booking, with a lower deposit paid. Then recoup the difference in an agreement between the couple and the new bookers. It is no different to selling the date to another couple - only difference here is that you know the 'new' couple.
You could sell the date/booking to another couple and the hotel still would have no guarantee that the day would go ahead. Lots of weddings get cancelled/postponed for many reasons.

Toots

OP it's a tough situation to be in, but I agree with the posters who suggested that you try and renegotiate with the hotel. It would be better for them to reduce the prices for you and make money on drink and rooms rather than sticking to the higher prices and only having 2k at the end of it.

Dollybird also made a good point, a half decent marquee can be very expensive. We looked at it as an option for out wedding and it would have worked out far more expensive than the hotel. There's also a lot more work and organising when you have a marquee, as anyone who has used one will tell you.

kormak

Toots* wrote: »

OP it's a tough situation to be in, but I agree with the posters who suggested that you try and renegotiate with the hotel. It would be better for them to reduce the prices for you and make money on drink and rooms rather than sticking to the higher prices and only having 2k at the end of it.

Dollybird also made a good point, a half decent marquee can be very expensive. We looked at it as an option for out wedding and it would have worked out far more expensive than the hotel. There's also a lot more work and organising when you have a marquee, as anyone who has used one will tell you.

yeah i appreciate that... but even if they halved their original agreed price we still couldn't afford it!

Turbulent Bill

Cincikchick wrote: »

sorry, how is it fraud? A bit sneaky, fair enough but fraud is a rather harsh word for it. the hotel said they would refund if they got another booking, all I am suggesting is trying to ensure there is another booking, with a lower deposit paid. Then recoup the difference in an agreement between the couple and the new bookers. It is no different to selling the date to another couple - only difference here is that you know the 'new' couple.
You could sell the date/booking to another couple and the hotel still would have no guarantee that the day would go ahead. Lots of weddings get cancelled/postponed for many reasons.

That's not what you said, see below (emphasis added by me):

Cincikchick wrote: »

Get it in writing that they will refund your deposit if they get an alternative booking. Then get someone you know to d make a booking for the hotel for your day. give them the money to pay a deposit. This time don't hand over €2000, but €500 or €1000. Then you can legitimately go back and look for your deposit back, knowing the day has been booked by another party on that same day - you get half or more of your deposit back. Cancel the 'new booking' - you know you will loose that deposit, but hopefully it will be less than your original deposit.

The only reason you're involving the second couple is to get part of the original deposit back, not to actually book a wedding. That is fraud.

OS119

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

The only reason you're involving the second couple is to get part of the original deposit back, not to actually book a wedding. That is fraud.

dodgy perhaps, but not quite the greatest crime in the world - additionally, if the hotel chooses to accept a lesser deposit (say €500 euro) from couple no 2 saying that its a 'minimum' non-refundable deposit that will cover their costs should the event not take place, did the hotel not defraud couple no 1 when they took €2000 as a 'minimum' non-refundable deposit to cover their costs should the same event not take place?

either the minimum deposit covers their costs (actual costs, not 'its a saturday in June ergo we have the God-given right to stage a very profitable wedding' cost to potential business by taking the original booking) or it doesn't, and i'd suggest its extraordinarily unlikely that the hotel, 6 months before the proposed wedding, has spent €2000.

while its true to say that the hotel will lose a wedding and not get a replacement function, they knew that and accepted that risk when they asked for a deposit and not the full cost up front - if they can't handle that risk then they need to find a new business model, but that's not the OP's problem.

How Strange

OS119 wrote: »

did the hotel not defraud couple no 1 when they took €2000 as a 'minimum' non-refundable deposit to cover their costs should the same event not take place?

Firstly :eek::eek:
Secondly what the hell are you talking about? How did they defraud the couple? Did they take the money from their bank account without their consent or alter a cheque to make it for a greater amount.

while its true to say that the hotel will lose a wedding and not get a replacement function, they knew that and accepted that risk when they asked for a deposit

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Non refundable deposits are standard in most service based industries. If you book a holiday and have to cancel for whatever reason the company will not refund the NONrefundable deposit. It doesn't matter if they sell those holiday places on afterwards.

Unfortunately, your argument is ar5e about face because it's the OP and his OH who knew and accepted the risk of paying the deposit.

and not the full cost up front - if they can't handle that risk then they need to find a new business model, but that's not the OP's problem.

Again, what the hell! It is the OP's problem.

This is bad luck on the OP and I 100% sympathise and empathise with him. We're organising our wedding at the moment and €2k would be a major chunk of our budget. However, if this hotel isn't an option then they stand to lose the deposit.

OP, perhaps you should try the poor mouth option. You and your OH get dressed up, go see the manager of the hotel, be very charming but explain the situation with your finances. Reitterate over and over again that you know it's a non refundable deposit but under the circumstances could they not reconsider their position and refund some of it.

It's always more difficult to be hardnosed when the people are standing in front of you and you can see they're genuine.

It's worth a shot.

OS119

How Strange wrote: »

Firstly :eek::eek:
Secondly what the hell are you talking about? How did they defraud the couple? Did they take the money from their bank account without their consent or alter a cheque to make it for a greater amount.


Again, what the hell are you talking about? Non refundable deposits are standard in most service based industries. If you book a holiday and have to cancel for whatever reason the company will not refund the NONrefundable deposit. It doesn't matter if they sell those holiday places on afterwards.

Unfortunately, your argument is ar5e about face because it's the OP and his OH who knew and accepted the risk of paying the deposit.

sorry squire, you not grasped the two ideas: firstly, if the hotel told couple 1 that €2000 was the minimum deposit required to cover their costs should the wedding not go ahead, but subsequently tell fictional couple 2 that a mere €500 (or whatever) will be the minimum required to cover their costs should effectively the same wedding not go ahead, then the hotel is lying to one of those couples - and given that, 6 months before the wedding they are unlikely to have spent anything like that - its rather more likely that they lied to couple 1 than couple 2. lying to get money = fraud. and turnabout is fair play....

secondly, if the hotel accepts deposit no 2 they, again, take a risk that what is booked may not go ahead. if they choose to accept that risk then thats their problem. if one feels sympathy with couple 1, but says 'hard luck, you did sign the contract', then one would be in the same position with the hotel after couple 2 pull out. its unfortunate, but they did take the deposit with the specific intention of keeping it should the event be cancelled. if they can't handle that degree of risk they should ask for the whole cost up front.

hotels, and indeed the whole wedding industry, never passes an opportunity to fleece couples by charging them far more than a comparable 'non-wedding' even of the same size, it is therefore, imho, not morally wrong to be a little underhand when dealing with these serpents

Lgray

except in this instance you know that they are going to lose the booking because it's a fake booking!- it's disgusting behaviour, not all hotels are big corporations. it's tough for everyone out there, and i'm all for shopping around but deliberate deciept is disgraceful behaviour, the contract was entered in good faith (not meant for op- I do sympathise, i think that going to them in person is a better way of dealing)