Harmonic Mixing

Mau5

I downloaded a program called "Mixed in key" the other day which tells you all the keys of your music aswell as BPM, which is great for me as I know how to find out BPM alright but not too good with harmonics and more technical side of music. I can tell what sounds good with what and that without the program just find it easier to use!

Anyway my question is regarding BPM and Key,
On the website for mixed in key it talks about key changing with BPM changes like increasing/decreasing which I can see is logical.
But my problem is how do I know if beatmatching two songs will completely change the key of the incoming track or not? does it only apply to big differences in BPM? I'd usually stay in a difference of 4 or 5 beats max. It talks about 6% rule which can be seen here http://community.mixedinkey.com/Topic.aspx?ID=1767

Any help would be great, sorry if its a stupid question!

electrogrimey

Do you not have an option on whatever you're using not to change the pitch when you're changing the tempo? CDJs have the master tempo, Traktor has the little yellow square etc.

rcaz

Please note: I'm not a DJ of any kind, I'm just interested

Any sort of speeding up/slowing down of music shifts the pitch (edit after seeing electrogrimey's post - speeding/slowing without any sort of measure to keep the pitch the same, like playing a 33rpm at 45 or something). If you double the speed of a track (ratio of 2:1), you'll shift it up an octave, a ratio of 3:2 will be a perfect fifth, etc. If you're really interested in that stuff, learn about intervals and just intonation.

A small shift will be microtonal, and can make really awful dissonance, but I wouldn't say this would matter unless the two tunes are recorded in the same key, and are played at the same time with one shifted a little out of tune. (If you can get your hands on an electric guitar, tune two strings to the same note, distort the signal, play harmonics on the same fret at the same time, and then tune one string slightly up/down - this'll illustrate the 'beating' dissonance).

Mau5

I have Gemini CDJ-203's, pretty basic they dont have master tempo, only option to change pitch to 8%, 12% or 24%
http://www.thomann.de/ie/gemini_cdj203.htm

electrogrimey

Without either a master tempo or a pitch bend option I can't really see anything you can do...

Daroxtar

I know very little about laptop djing but i do know that Virtual Dj has a Key change button. Do Traktor or Torq or Ableton or any other program have it? I thought i read somewhere about a mixer with Mixed in Key built in or with a key adjuster on it? Dont know where i read it but i'm pretty sure its not a figment of my imagination. Then again i could be schizophrenic............:):confused:

electrogrimey

Daroxtar wrote: »

I know very little about laptop djing but i do know that Virtual Dj has a Key change button. Do Traktor or Torq or Ableton or any other program have it? I thought i read somewhere about a mixer with Mixed in Key built in or with a key adjuster on it? Dont know where i read it but i'm pretty sure its not a figment of my imagination. Then again i could be schizophrenic............:):confused:

Traktor has a pitch bend option, which works by semi-tones, not keys. Some versions of Virtual DJ have some kind of key-based pitch system alright, I don't know how accurate it is though...The OP is using CD decks though, so it doesn't really apply.

Daroxtar

Do the new CDJ 2000s have key analysis?

electrogrimey

Daroxtar wrote: »

Do the new CDJ 2000s have key analysis?

No idea, they have an accompanying software for setting cue points and stuff, so I'm sure you could just run your stuff through Mixed in Key on the computer first anyway, and it'd come up on the display on the CDJ.

Zascar

This topic came up a few years back when this product was first released and it got an awful slaughtering.

It depends on what music you play but really big clashing melodies are rarely a problem and you should be able to tell if a track is going to go together by pre-monitoring it first anyway.

I know two guys who use Mixed In Key to plan their mixes if they are going to record a CD. I find that it just makes the whole thing a bit 'too smooth' and almost boring. Call me crazy but sometimes its the little imperfections in a mix that make it interesting.

Key matching can be done with software mixing, but I find changing the key always makes the song sound a bit strange, unlike when the key is changed if the pitch changes. Best to lock the key like you can on cdj's or software etc, but if you cannot do that, just don't bother and try practicing mixing tricky melodies instead

Mau5

electrogrimey wrote: »

Without either a master tempo or a pitch bend option I can't really see anything you can do...

It has a pitch bend.

Cheers Zascar,
So Pretty much dont rely on the software and just use my ear?
I was just getting confused with that 6% rule they were talking about.

ChadP

It's actually pretty simple, but like most things takes a little practice and getting used to. The most helpful thing to start with is organizing your tracks first by tempo, and then by key. Then you will have easy access to tracks that you know will mix together without having to take key changes into account.

If you want to mix something in that is a different tempo, then you may need to make an allowance for the key change. Your mixer has a resolution setting of 8%, 16%, and 24%. You didn't mention which you use mostly, but let's assume it is the 8% setting. Now if you have to move your pitch slider beyond roughly halfway in either direction you need to add 7 to the Camelot code for that song. If your song was in 3A, it is now in 10A. If it was in 10A you just need to continue going around the circle, and you will be at 5A.


Cheers,
Chad P
Mixed In Key

Mau5

Cheers thats exactly the explaination I was looking for!
Have all my cds in order of BPM and I'm in the process of adding the keys to it now. I usually use the pitch set at 8%. So that expaination was perfect,

Thanks again

Zascar

Mau5 wrote: »

Cheers thats exactly the explaination I was looking for!
Have all my cds in order of BPM and I'm in the process of adding the keys to it now. /QUOTE]
Wow, I can't believe anyone is that organised. There's no way I'd ever be able to do that. Thankfully with digital you do not have to worry about that. Mixed in Key can route into traktor and add it to the notes of the track if you want I think.

Mau5

Zascar wrote: »

Mau5 wrote: »

Cheers thats exactly the explaination I was looking for!
Have all my cds in order of BPM and I'm in the process of adding the keys to it now. /QUOTE]
Wow, I can't believe anyone is that organised. There's no way I'd ever be able to do that. Thankfully with digital you do not have to worry about that. Mixed in Key can route into traktor and add it to the notes of the track if you want I think.

Yeah you can set preferences to make it rewrite ID3 tags for you if you want it to, pretty handy!

Thought I understood this but one more question I'm sorry to say...
I took one song at 130BPM 3A mixed in another song (originally 125 BPM 3A) and it worked smoothly, should there not have been the key change there making the second track change to 10A? Took a third track at 128 BPM 10A, beatmatched them but when I tried to mix them they just sounded awful together!

Anyone got any ideas? I'm probably just missing something here!

ChadP

Mau5 wrote: »

I took one song at 130BPM 3A mixed in another song (originally 125 BPM 3A) and it worked smoothly,

Ok, so a 5 BPM change to a 125 BPM track is a 4% change - you're not all of the way to 10A yet, so there is a small chance that the 3A song will still mix with other songs in 3A.

Mau5 wrote: »

Took a third track at 128 BPM 10A, beatmatched them but when I tried to mix them they just sounded awful together!

Here's an example where you need to take the total pitch change of both tracks into account. Your first track was still 2% away from being dead on 10A. Your new 10A track is being raised by 1.5% away from 10A. Your total pitch change is now 3.5%, which can be enough to cause dissonance.

I think you have a good understanding of the theory, now you just need to put it into more practice. Remember that every song is different, and that the rules don't always have to apply. Most of all don't be afraid to experiment and have fun. If it sounds good to you, go for it


Cheers,
Chad P
Mixed In Key

Mau5

Think I'm getting my head around it alright, cheers for the help.