Calvinistic Predestination - Is it scriptural

antiskeptic

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

antiskeptic wrote:

I'm not sure the Calvinist would use the sense of predestination here (the word predestination doesn't actually appear here either, and is barely mentioned in the Bible) in support of their doctrine of Predestination (which concludes God predestining some to be saved and some to be not).

wolfsbane wrote:

Yes, we would see this as the same predestination as that which chooses the elect. This is telling us that God determines the end - the salvation of His elect - and the means, the atoning death of His Son.

The doctrine of predestination is not built only on the word itself, but on all the words that support it - election, chose, etc. God's choice of His sheep for salvation is declared throughout Scripture again and again.

If the doctrine depended on a peculiar interpretation of one word, I would be the first to abandon it.

A key difference between Calvinistic Predestination (as it concerns the individual to be saved, or not) and God's "foreknowledge and purpose" regarding Christ's sacrifice - is choice. It was Christs choice to suffer and die on the cross. Christs choice which was involved in his submitting himself to his fathers will. Whereas it is not a persons choice whether they are Calvinistically predestined for salvation or not.

How do you (or any other Calvinist) arrive at the conclusion that this is "the same predestination as that which chooses the elect"? I mean, that something is foreknown to occur and that there is purpose in it's occurance doesn't necessitate that it was predestined to occur - a fact unscored perhaps by the non-appearance of the word "predestine" in the Acts verse.

kelly1

On a general note, I don't accept for a minute that God predestines anyone to hell but only for salvation. God wants all of us to be saved (see 1 Tim 2:4) but I do believe that God singles out certain individuals and predestines them for salvation e.g the saints where He has a special mission for the good of the Church.

antiskeptic

kelly1 wrote: »

On a general note, I don't accept for a minute that God predestines anyone to hell but only for salvation. God wants all of us to be saved (see 1 Tim 2:4) but I do believe that God singles out certain individuals and predestines them for salvation e.g the saints where He has a special mission for the good of the Church.

Hmm. This notion struggles with the same sense of unfairness (albeit on a slightly smaller scale, number-wise) than Calvinistic predestination.

kelly1

antiskeptic wrote: »

Hmm. This notion struggles with the same sense of unfairness (albeit on a slightly smaller scale, number-wise) than Calvinistic predestination.

How is predestination for salvation unfair? If God chooses to give some special graces, what's wrong with that?

antiskeptic

kelly1 wrote: »

How is predestination for salvation unfair? If God chooses to give some special graces, what's wrong with that?

Those special graces would render all men not born with equal opportunity for salvation. Such a thing would confound the universally-held sense of what constitutes fairness.

Of course, if God held it fair then it would be. But I was speaking from a sense of what mankind finds fair.

PDN

The problem with predestination to salvation only IMHO is that it necessarily implies double predestination ( ie to hell as well).

If the saved are presdestinated to be saved, and if they are the only people who will be saved, and if those who are not saved go to hell - then God has effectively predestined to hell all whom He neglected to predestine to heaven.

My own belief is that predestination is not individual, but in Christ. So, for example, we can say that God predestined that all who trust in Christ will be saved. He also predestined that all who reject Christ will be condemned. But He did not predestine which group I as an individual choose to be identified with.

kelly1

antiskeptic wrote: »

Those special graces would render all men not born with equal opportunity for salvation. Such a thing would confound the universally-held sense of what constitutes fairness.

Of course, if God held it fair then it would be. But I was speaking from a sense of what mankind finds fair.

Reminds me of the parable of the labourers. Even though they didn't do the same amount of work, they were paid a full day's wages.

Likewise, we're don't deserve grace and so if God sees fit to grant special graces, that's His prerogaive. I think the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Paul are cases in point.

Regards,
Noel.

antiskeptic

kelly1 wrote: »

Reminds me of the parable of the labourers. Even though they didn't do the same amount of work, they were paid a full day's wages.

All labourers. All paid the same. Apart from their work. Now if money was being handed out to those who weren't even labourers you might have a supporting parable (rather that one which undermines salvation by work)

Likewise, we're don't deserve grace and so if God sees fit to grant special graces, that's His prerogaive. I think the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Paul are cases in point.

Not deserving salvation is one thing. Issuing it out partially is another.

Whilst preferring to keep this to Calvinistic predestination, I can't help but remark that I see no scriptural case for supposing either Paul or Mary saved through predestination. I've no issue with the suggestion that God chooses certain people and issues them extraordinary grace in order that they accomplish extraordinary work. Whilst Paul and Mary fit that bill - predestination unto salvation isn't implied in either case.

santing

Is teh word predestined ever linked (directly) in the Bible with salvation? We are predestined for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (Eph 1:5 ESV)... We are not predestined to be saved.

Salvation is implied, predestined talks about the next (in order, not in time) steps.

I would normally explain it like: "Those of whom God foreknew that they would be saved, those he predestined to sonship."

antiskeptic

santing wrote: »

Is the word predestined ever linked (directly) in the Bible with salvation? We are predestined for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (Eph 1:5 ESV)... We are not predestined to be saved.

Edit - misread your post. We're in agreement it seems

jbloggs

Calvinistic Predestination - Is it scriptural?

Certainly isn't...

The predestination, calling and election of God in scripture are dependant upon the foreknowledge of God, no viceversa...

God is said to "presdestinate" someone to do something which by His foreknowledge He knows they will want to do, God is not represented as forcing someone to do something they do not want to do...the will of man/woman is always free!

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..." Rom 8v29

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.." 1Pet 1v2

The doctrine of Predestination (which is neither loving nor just) is also totally opposed to the character of God, Who is Love and the Judge of all the earth...Gen 18v25, 1John 4v8,16,

Yahweh Shalom

wolfsbane

antiskeptic wrote: »

A key difference between Calvinistic Predestination (as it concerns the individual to be saved, or not) and God's "foreknowledge and purpose" regarding Christ's sacrifice - is choice. It was Christs choice to suffer and die on the cross. Christs choice which was involved in his submitting himself to his fathers will. Whereas it is not a persons choice whether they are Calvinistically predestined for salvation or not.

How do you (or any other Calvinist) arrive at the conclusion that this is "the same predestination as that which chooses the elect"? I mean, that something is foreknown to occur and that there is purpose in it's occurance doesn't necessitate that it was predestined to occur - a fact unscored perhaps by the non-appearance of the word "predestine" in the Acts verse.

Occurances of the Greek word προορίζω (proorizō) rendered predestinated in the Romans passage:

Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will...
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

While it may be argued that this predestination is based on what God knew we would do if presented with the gospel, it certainly goes way beyond God having an interest in it occurring. He intervenes in history to make sure it happens. The verses tell us He purposed it would happen, then He predestined it to happen.

Now, did He choose us on the basis of Him knowing what we would do with the gospel? Is this what foreknow means? The Romans passage does not say whom He foreknew how they would choose, rather it says whom He foreknew. It carries the sense of intimate knowledge of the person, not of their choices. Just as Adam knew his wife and she conceived. Foreknow meaning foreloved.

We can test these different interpretations by seeing what all the rest of the Scripture says about our salvation and about God's choices. Check the various terms used: elect, chose, appointed, etc.

Jesus' word on His sheep:
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

16:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Luke on election:
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Peter on election and reprobation:
1 Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,


“ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and


“ A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

But one of the clearest indicators of God's absolute sovereignty is found just after the Romans 8 passage.
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Some object that this speaks of national blessings, the Jews versus the Gentiles. But the text rules that out: it is the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction versus the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory. Salvation is the issue, not nationality.

Our choice was not the determining factor in our salvation. Our choice followed on from God's predestination. He causes us to choose Him, as the New Covenant says:
Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

There is much more can be said to establish God's sovereignty in salvation as well as in nature. But let me put this to you for now: if our choice is determinative for our salvation, if we have an absolute veto on being saved, then it could have been that God would have had no sheep. It is just 'chance' that any of us were willing to repent and believe.

Is that the picture you get from the Bible?

jbloggs

wolfsbane:
But one of the clearest indicators of God's absolute sovereignty is found just after the Romans 8 passage.
Romans 9:14...

The passage of Rom 9v14-24 is the truth taken from Jer 18v1-11 (The Potter and the clay) and there it is clearly stated by God that the onus of each of the Israelites being saved rested with each individual (i.e., the operation of each of their own free-wills), God's desire is that they might all be saved, v11 "return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good." (also see 1Tim 2v4, 2Pet 3v9)

The free-will of the clay is what determines what the Potter will do with it, either salvation or destruction...

The free-will of the believer and God's foreknowledge are two different things and when interpreting Scripture should be treated as such...

The individual's free-will is ALWAYS the determining factor whether they are saved or not!

antiskeptic

wolfsbane wrote: »

Occurances of the Greek word προορίζω (proorizō) rendered predestinated in the Romans passage:

Much obliged

Our specific interest here is whether or not the Calvinistic take on predestination is supported scripturally. Are people predestined to become part of that grouping called "the saved" - their not being predestined so meaning they will remain, by default, part of that alternative grouping called "the damned"

We can leave aside that which indicates God determines certain things (we can both agree that he does), eg;

Acts

4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

..and focus on that which suggests the Calvinistic take on predestined-unto-salvation. Such as;

Romans

8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The issue here appears to be God's foreknowing and what that entails. How does one become one of the foreknown? - because if one obtains to that, then it seems clear that God predestines certain things regarding you. That the things predestined belong to the suite of activities associated with one who has been saved doesn't permit us to suppose salvation itself (i.e.: Gods initial decision to save a person) is the thing predestined. In other words, the mechanism and trappings of having been saved are not to be confused with the decision to apply those mechanisms and trappings to a person

Ephesians

1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will...

"Us in him" is another name for a category of people called "Christians". Inserting that notion, a category of people, into the verse we see the following reading:

"Before the foundation of the world, God chose that a category of people (called Christians) should be holy and blameless".

It is not necessary that anyone yet belong to that category of people in order that God chose what he intended for them. Consider it him assigning a purpose to a then empty file folder which he knows will someday contain files. What he has intended for the file folder shall be applied to any file that happens to arrive there. We have the same thing applies to the second half of the verse; "having predestined us"... who are 'us'? Well, Christians of course - people in Christ. God predestined that us - those in Christ - would be adopted as sons.

This verse can (easily) be read as informing us as to what God has planned (from the outset) shall occur to those who are put into Christ. They are to be made holy and blameless, they are to be adopted. It could have been something else that he planned for them - here we are told it is this.

What we can't say is that the 'us' are predestined to be put into Christ in the first place.

While it may be argued that this predestination is based on what God knew we would do if presented with the gospel, it certainly goes way beyond God having an interest in it occurring. He intervenes in history to make sure it happens. The verses tell us He purposed it would happen, then He predestined it to happen.

I'm not arguing the Arminian position (which I don't agree with either). Rather, I am enquiring about the scriptural validity of the Calvinistic one. I'd merely note though that it wouldn't be safe to be supposing the Calvinistic position supported simply because of weaknesses in the Arminian one. What is lacking thus far is the case for supposing God predestines a person to become one of the saved - all we have so far (and easily arguable) is him predestining what shall happen to the saved.

Now, did He choose us on the basis of Him knowing what we would do with the gospel? Is this what foreknow means? The Romans passage does not say whom He foreknew how they would choose, rather it says whom He foreknew. It carries the sense of intimate knowledge of the person, not of their choices. Just as Adam knew his wife and she conceived. Foreknow meaning foreloved.

Precisely what brings about such foreknowing would certainly help us in our search for how salvation is wrought at the very fulcrum point from lost into found. Although not, I repeat, arguing the Arminian position (I don't see how a dead-to-God will chooses for God??) I wouldn't agree that choice should be rendered "mere" choice. Choosing for God (were it possible) would be a highly intimate thing for a person to do. If choosing to finally love the truth you have chosen to love God - who is the Truth.

Suffice to say at this point that we don't know enough about what brings about the foreknowing to add stiffening agent to the concrete of Calvinistic Predestination

We can test these different interpretations by seeing what all the rest of the Scripture says about our salvation and about God's choices. Check the various terms used: elect, chose, appointed, etc.

Okay..

Jesus' word on His sheep:
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

If you are not one of the saved you won't believe (due to still dead ears). Relevance to predestination?

16:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

The Arminian is shot down in flames! But why did he chose them? What was the criteria/on? Citing "mystery" and "God is sovereign and can chose on whatever basis he likes" are not criteria.

Luke on election:
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Which incidently happens to coincide with my own position in all this, to whit; the person is saved by believing God (as Abraham did) in a way which satisfies God's criteria for saving a man (this without him necessarily even believing in God at that point). Then God reveals himself to man by his Holy Spirit, justifies him, the person, if hearing the gospel with now believe it, etc. It'd be similar to your own position (which supposes something else 'attaching' to the person ("they are the predestined elect") being the reason why they believe the gospel at some point ). But in my case, I'm supposing the person fulfilling a criteria for salvation ("believing God"). And so their salvation ultimately rests with them.

The point of this discussion stands however: the basis for them being appointed, just as in the case of their being foreknown, isn't revealed in this verse. Does it depend on them in some way? Or is it Calvinistic Predestination? How can we tell?

Peter on election and reprobation:
1 Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,


“ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and


“ A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The same point can be made regarding the disobedient: the basis for their being appointed isn't revealed. The place for being chosen was mentioned earlier in regard to what is being chosen: the lofty heights to which those in Christ are to be elevated. Whilst we have silence on the basis for the disobedient being appointed in your verse, 2 Thess 2:10, which involves the lost in blind stumbling - a stumbling enabled by God himself - is pretty clear on the reason for their appointment;

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

The doctrine of Calvinistic Predestination need first be established before it can begin reading such a "because" as being the result of appointment unto the because. Until that point is reached, a simple reading tells us that the will of the person is involved in the matter. Unhappily for the Arminian, it is will expressed only unto damnation in this case.

But one of the clearest indicators of God's absolute sovereignty is found just after the Romans 8 passage.

Just to note that I'm not questioning God's sovereignty in this: if God decides that mankind has a part to play in whether he is saved or no then that is God's sovereign choice.

Some object that this speaks of national blessings, the Jews versus the Gentiles. But the text rules that out: it is the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction versus the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory. Salvation is the issue, not nationality.

As ever, the basis for God's preparing this way or that is being enquired after. The foreknowing/preparing in advance element shouldn't cause us to conclude that God's deciding as he did wasn't based on his knowledge of what we would do. God being entitled to do as he wishes doesn't lend support to the notion that he did as Calvinistic Predestination says he did. It simply means that it could be that way if God so choose.

Our choice was not the determining factor in our salvation. Our choice followed on from God's predestination. He causes us to choose Him, as the New Covenant says:

Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

With sincere respect Wolfsbane, you cannot arrive at what you say here via this verse.

If there was a criterion involved in entering the house of Israel - and man played a part in satisfying that criterion - then this highlighted section doesn't include it or exclude it. It 'merely' tells us what will happen to those in the house of Israel. That entrance to the house of Israel isn't gained by adherence to the law (but is by grace) doesn't exclude all possible criteria in which man plays a part.

And Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Again, I'm not sure how this helps establish Calvinistic Predestination. All who agree on Christian re-birth believe that certain things are sure to happen due to action by God post their salvation.

There is much more can be said to establish God's sovereignty in salvation as well as in nature. But let me put this to you for now: if our choice is determinative for our salvation, if we have an absolute veto on being saved, then it could have been that God would have had no sheep. It is just 'chance' that any of us were willing to repent and believe.

I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that an omnipresent God wouldn't know precisely how many (from say 30 billion) would be saved (by whatever non-Calvinistic means) before time even began. There is no sound basis for supposing that the only way for God to know that some would be saved was to predetermine that they would be.


My own view, incidently, is that if a man arrives at the point of believing God is it because his depraved-nature was eventually silenced by Gods ongoing action. An action aimed at all men with a view to their salvation. That action works towards bringing a man to believe God on something quite specific: the matter of sin/righteousness/judgement (however that conviction might manifest to a person in practice).

Such a silenced depraved-nature is in essence, a depraved-will that isn't expressing itself in the area in question - it's silent afterall. And sin-will not expressing itself is a sin-will that is doing nothing. Doing nothing isn't a choice (a choice involving an active expression of will) - it's doing nothing. The alternative to a depraved-will doing nothing by way of expression, is a depraved-nature expressing. Doing something in other words.

You might see where this is going: salvation by will doing nothing / damnation by will doing something?

A depraved-will doing nothing means truth to which it is exposed isn't suppressed (which is what the depraved will tends towards). Which means the person thus exposed will be convinced of sin/righteousness/judgement (however that conviction might manifest to a person in practice). If, on the other hand, the depraved will does something it will do the only thing such a will can do - suppress truth. Suppress truth and there can be no conviction.

And so we have: a person does nothing - they will be convicted. A person does something - they will remain unconvicted. The criterion for salvation is, I would thus suggest, that a person does nothing. "Doing nothing" is contributing but not in any way excluded scripturally: it's not working for it and it certainly isn't willing it.

Is that the picture you get from the Bible?

I don't see anything that confounds the views I've expressed in this post. I certainly don't see God as represented by Calvinistic Predestination anywhere in it's pages; not in personality and not in his detailing such a doctrine through use of anything like clear argumentation. It seems to me that the doctrine of Predestination is one that is arrived at by presuming there are no alternative explanations which equally (if not better) fit the text.

antiskeptic

jbloggs wrote: »

The individual's free-will is ALWAYS the determining factor whether they are saved or not!

How do you figure people, who Paul describes as being "slaves to sin", having a free-will?

CIE

santing wrote: »

Is teh word predestined ever linked (directly) in the Bible with salvation? We are predestined for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (Eph 1:5 ESV)... We are not predestined to be saved.

Salvation is implied, predestined talks about the next (in order, not in time) steps.

I urge everyone not to forget what the ultimate requisite for being "saved" is, which implies that nobody who is alive in the flesh is yet "saved". This is in Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13, where it says "(b)ut he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Greek δε υπομεινας εις τελος ουτος σωθησεται). That certainly does not support Calvinism's misinterpretation of "predestination".

antiskeptic

CIE wrote: »

I urge everyone not to forget what the ultimate requisite for being "saved" is, which implies that nobody who is alive in the flesh is yet "saved". This is in Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13, where it says "(b)ut he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Greek δε υπομεινας εις τελος ουτος σωθησεται). That certainly does not support Calvinism's misinterpretation of "predestination".

Although not a Calvinistic Predestinationalist (:)) I'd point out that that verse doesn't say whether the enduring is a cause of their being saved or a consequence of their having been saved/born again/put into Christ/justified/etc. And because it can be both it can be read Calvinistically.

wolfsbane

CIE wrote: »

I urge everyone not to forget what the ultimate requisite for being "saved" is, which implies that nobody who is alive in the flesh is yet "saved". This is in Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13, where it says "(b)ut he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Greek δε υπομεινας εις τελος ουτος σωθησεται). That certainly does not support Calvinism's misinterpretation of "predestination".

Not Calvinistic? Calvinists insist that it is those who endure to the end who will be saved. They point out that Christ has promised every true Christian will endure to the end:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

As to when we are saved, it is when we first believed, is on-going and will be completed at His appearing. The salvation He begun will be completed then - but it is so sure that He tells us we have been saved:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

CIE

wolfsbane wrote: »

Not Calvinistic? Calvinists insist that it is those who endure to the end who will be saved. They point out that Christ has promised every true Christian will endure to the end:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

As to when we are saved, it is when we first believed, is on-going and will be completed at His appearing. The salvation He begun will be completed then - but it is so sure that He tells us we have been saved:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Sorry, but Calvinism's "predestination" doctrine denies that, and effectively claims that free will does not exist, especially per the Westminster Confession:

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass ...

Such a notion declares that repentance is impossible. However, repentance is a primary tenet of the Gospel.

BTW, I don't know what translation you're using (looks like Young's), but in Ephesians 2:8, the word (and it's one word) translated "you have been" is actually the present indicative tense rather than present perfect continuous tense.

And of course, the Westminster Confession is antithetical to Ecclesiastes 9:11.

I returned, and saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

antiskeptic

wolfsbane wrote: »

Not Calvinistic? Calvinists insist that it is those who endure to the end who will be saved. They point out that Christ has promised every true Christian will endure to the end:

Which, you will agree, isn't the preserve of the Calvinist. At least, one doesn't need to invoke Calvinistic Predestination in order that a Christian be sure to endure.

antiskeptic

CIE wrote: »

Sorry, but Calvinism's "predestination" doctrine denies that,

Denies what?

.. and effectively claims that free will does not exist, especially per the Westminster Confession:Such a notion declares that repentance is impossible. However, repentance is a primary tenet of the Gospel.

Why is free will necessary for repentance? Surely God can take a Calvinistic depraved will and bring it to repentance? Why must the turning away be self-powered and not God-powered?

wolfsbane

antiskeptic wrote: »

Which, you will agree, isn't the preserve of the Calvinist. At least, one doesn't need to invoke Calvinistic Predestination in order that a Christian be sure to endure.

No problem with that. I was just pointing out, contrary to CIE's assertion, that Calvinists insist on it.

wolfsbane

CIE said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Not Calvinistic? Calvinists insist that it is those who endure to the end who will be saved. They point out that Christ has promised every true Christian will endure to the end:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

As to when we are saved, it is when we first believed, is on-going and will be completed at His appearing. The salvation He begun will be completed then - but it is so sure that He tells us we have been saved:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Sorry, but Calvinism's "predestination" doctrine denies that,

Denies what? That those who endure to the end shall be saved? Please point to the place.

and effectively claims that free will does not exist, especially per the Westminster Confession:
Quote:
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass ...
Such a notion declares that repentance is impossible. However, repentance is a primary tenet of the Gospel.

Completely wrong. Calvinism insists on repentance, and insists that God grants it to His elect.

You make the unwarranted assumption that only those with 'freewill' can repent. But those whom God has given a new heart (and thus a new will) can and most certainly will repent.

BTW, I don't know what translation you're using (looks like Young's), but in Ephesians 2:8, the word (and it's one word) translated "you have been" is actually the present indicative tense rather than present perfect continuous tense.

And?
http://http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%202:8&version=NKJV;NIV;ESV;YLT

And of course, the Westminster Confession is antithetical to Ecclesiastes 9:11.
Quote:
I returned, and saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Do you not realise that the Preacher is giving a human perspective here? He is not denying God's providence, is not saying it is all really chance. Before that, in v1, he said:
For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God.

wolfsbane

jbloggs said:

The passage of Rom 9v14-24 is the truth taken from Jer 18v1-11 (The Potter and the clay)

You make that assertion, but there is nothing in the text to suggest it. In the Jeremiah use it is a flaw in the clay (sin) that causes the potter to make a different pot. Yet in Romans the potter is pictured as being uninfluenced by the clay:
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

The answer to Why? was not, You have sinned, but an assertion of the potter's right.

A moral objection might be raised if mankind were naturally innocent - but we are all naturally guilty, deserving of nothing but wrath. The Potter is perfectly free to show mercy to any He pleases (or to none), and perfectly just to condemn the rest. That is the plain assertion of the passage:
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Mercy is not due to our will, nor to our works, but entirely from God's will.

and there it is clearly stated by God that the onus of each of the Israelites being saved rested with each individual (i.e., the operation of each of their own free-wills), God's desire is that they might all be saved, v11 "return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good." (also see 1Tim 2v4, 2Pet 3v9)

The free-will of the clay is what determines what the Potter will do with it, either salvation or destruction...

Jeremiah was teaching a different truth from that which Paul was teaching in Romans 9. Jeremiah was teaching the necessity of repentance and the promise of God to receive those who do. Paul was teaching the sovereignty of God behind it all.

The free-will of the believer and God's foreknowledge are two different things and when interpreting Scripture should be treated as such...

I agree. That's why the Jeremiah passage cannot be used to exegete Romans 9.

The individual's free-will is ALWAYS the determining factor whether they are saved or not!

It is always a key factor, but if one wants to know what determines it ALL, then one has to go to the passages that deal with the big picture.

Our exercise of our will to repent and believe is essential - but what causes us to choose to repent and believe? Our innate goodness, as compared to the man who wills to reject the gospel?

Or God's freewill? His choice of the individual without regard to his/her will or works?

Those whom God chose are called in time and regenerated by His Spirit - given a new heart that always chooses to repent and believe.

antiskeptic

Wolfsbane wrote:

Calvinism insists on repentance, and insists that God grants it to His elect.

You make the unwarranted assumption that only those with 'freewill' can repent. But those whom God has given a new heart (and thus a new will) can and most certainly will repent.

Which brings us neatly back to the subject of this thread. We can agree that it is the action of God upon a man which brings a man to repentence. The question asked by the thread however, is whether the one man is is predestined to be brought to salvation thus and the other not.