Redundancy / constructive dismissal

greatunwashed

I have been told today that I am being made redundant and given statutory redundancy. I am not willing to accept this on several grounds as I believe my rights as an employee have been abused to say the least.

I will be meeting with my union rep and employer (general manager) the company is run by a board of directors, is it unreasonable to ask for 2 years salary after being with the company for 6 years? The company is still viable and growing year on year.

Is my union rep my only source of advice or should I get in contact with agencies which may be able to help?

Thank you in anticipation of your advice.

Kind regards

(soon to be a member of the) greatunwashed

seamus

greatunwashed wrote: »

I will be meeting with my union rep and employer (general manager) the company is run by a board of directors, is it unreasonable to ask for 2 years salary after being with the company for 6 years?

Yes it is. You're effectively looking for 17 weeks salary for every year of service. Which is ridiculous.

Something like 3 months' salary + 4 weeks for every year would be a very generous redundancy package. That would be the equivalent of 9 months pay.

Note that redundancy doesn't fall under exactly the same rules as a normal firing of someone. A company can effectively let you go so long as they can show that your job has become unnecessary, there's nowhere else to put you, and they give you the statutory minimum payment.

slimjimmc

(Normal pleb here with no legal training and limited knowledge)

It's not clear to me exactly what compensation you're asking for?

Is it 2yrs salary in compensation for redundancy or 2yrs salary in compensation for the constructive dismissal which you mentioned in the thread title but not in your post?

If the former then 2yr for normal redundancy is a pie-in-the-sky figure. In industry, many medium/large companies give 5-6 weeks per yr worked on top of statutory, a few give more, but many give less. Since there's no legal obligation to give anything other than your statutory entitlements what you actually get is a matter of negotiation with your employer.

I don't know if 2yrs is reasonable compensation for constructive dismissal, I suppose it depends on the nature of your employment, the business and the circumstances. From reading about other dismissal cases in newspapers, 2yrs for 6 worked sounds a lot to me.

greatunwashed

Thank you for your replies. I was unsure as to whether to stick my neck out for redundancy or go for a dismissal appeal. The details of the case are quite simple. A company with a turnover of 1.5 million wants to shut down an integral part of the company, (the accounts dept) a part that every company needs to survive, with the gm deciding that he can produce accounts during his day to day running of the company despite the need to produce several reports weekly, quarterly and annually. I can be best assured that he will eventually ask others in the company to work on the accounts. It's neither here nor there at this stage, I've pretty much made up my mind (amature as it is) how I will persue this.

okioffice84

Be careful what you wish for...in some cases an unfair dismissal award (or constructive dismissal) will be less than the amount which would have been paid in redundancy. Thats if an award is even made.

eagle_&_bear

unfortunately when the RP50 scheme operates (statutory redundancy scheme) the package offered by the company can be limited by the financial affairs of the company


some can off x number of weeks + the 2 statutory weeks, others can only offer the 2 statutory weeks.

If there is no additional financial resources available to the company and/or if it is verging on recievership or close to it, it can validly defend any claim you might bring. The minimum is 2 statutory weeks for every year worked.

The usual is [(2 weeks per year x 6 years) +1 clear week] = ?
thats the minimum route. If the company has additional monies then these are added to the minimum 2 weeks and it is recalculated.

Look on the citizens advice bureau website about it. but often times when these issues arise, employee options are not as strong.

If there are other issues in work like unfair selection etc, then you need to speak to a solicitor who specialises in employment law matters.

Or you could get the book called '' know your rights'' and get the 2009/2010 version, I think its 20euro in easons-it is very good

becareful pushing it too far though, if the company is bankrupt it can avoid paying anything so its a strategy game im afraid.

seamus

greatunwashed wrote: »

The details of the case are quite simple. A company with a turnover of 1.5 million wants to shut down an integral part of the company, (the accounts dept) a part that every company needs to survive, with the gm deciding that he can produce accounts during his day to day running of the company despite the need to produce several reports weekly, quarterly and annually. I can be best assured that he will eventually ask others in the company to work on the accounts. It's neither here nor there at this stage, I've pretty much made up my mind (amature as it is) how I will persue this.

Just bear the below quote in mind.

okioffice84 wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for...in some cases an unfair dismissal award (or constructive dismissal) will be less than the amount which would have been paid in redundancy. Thats if an award is even made.

€1.5m is not a massive turnover. Remember, that's turnover, not profit. If you imagine that a company with a €200m turnover has 1500-2000 employees, then a company with a €1.5m turnover will have something in the realm of 12-20 employees - depends on the industry and the average staff wage obviously, it may be more people on less money or fewer people on higher money.

Also, producing accounting reports is not that difficult. That's not me trying to belittle your job, but particularly if the member of management has accounting or business experience, then producing accounting reports for a company with only €1.5m turnover should be simple enough.

You would need to show that producing these reports is a full-time job - all day, every day.

In terms of what you expect as a payment, consider the profits of the company. If the company made a €300m profit last year, and you get paid €30k pa, then asking for two years is asking for 20% of the profits. You haven't a hope of getting that much either way.

Victor

seamus wrote: »

In terms of what you expect as a payment, consider the profits of the company. If the company made a €300m profit last year, and you get paid €30k pa, then asking for two years is asking for 20% of the profits.

slimjimmc

greatunwashed wrote: »

Thank you for your replies. I was unsure as to whether to stick my neck out for redundancy or go for a dismissal appeal. The details of the case are quite simple. A company with a turnover of 1.5 million wants to shut down an integral part of the company, (the accounts dept) a part that every company needs to survive, with the gm deciding that he can produce accounts during his day to day running of the company despite the need to produce several reports weekly, quarterly and annually. I can be best assured that he will eventually ask others in the company to work on the accounts. It's neither here nor there at this stage, I've pretty much made up my mind (amature as it is) how I will persue this.

Where does constructive dismissal come in here, I can see a redundancy situation only? Every company need accounts but that doesn't mean it needs an Accounts Dept since the role can be outsourced. Your employers have, unfortunately for you and your collegues, decided they no longer need a dedicated accounts dept and your services are no longer required. That is their right. If they forced you to resign or if they dismissed you and employed someone in your place then you may have a claim but that's not what's happening here.

Laura79

If this is a genuine redundancy case where your employer can prove that the role is redundant and that your selection is based on the winding up of your role and not a personal selection, then you are unlikely to succeed in an unfair dismissal case. (If you have been given redundancy notice by your employer, then a constructive dismissal is not relevant).

Even if you can claim unfair dismissal, the maximum award is 2 years salary. You must show the EAT (or Rights Commissioner) that you have attempted to mitigate your loss. So, if you get another job which pays more, you may end up, as other posters have said, worse off than if you accepted the statutory minimum.

Reloc8

Bear in mind an unfair dismissal case could take over a year to get a date, from the date on which the complaint is made.